The Zohan

Dave
See your point!
I agree this would help but unlikely to stop it. It is the demand for firearms and the mentality of the w@nkers prepared to use them that is the problem.

Paul

RB5320

just a comment on the suggestions of a "shoot to kill poilcy". My understanding is that the policy is to shoot to disable. The best way to do this is to shoot for the torso as this is the largest target with the most concentrated area of vital organs. It is therefore most likely to disable a gunman instantly, preventing him shooting back. If it also kills him - tough. I think the 200 yard shot to the head while the target hides behind a hostage is mainly found in films.
As for banning handguns - yep, gets my vote. If there is only 1 less gun in circulation that has to be a good thing in my opinion.

Steve

RB5320

Paul - I cant disagree with you, and yes the "1 less gun" comment is ancient history. But, the escalation in number of guns is uncontrollable and I personally cant see any real solution - as has been said, whatever legislation is brought in will have no effect on the number of illegally obtained firearms and tougher sentences are not going to change the mentality of the professional criminal - if anything they are likely to be more desparate to evade Police so more likely to shoot. I am simply in favour of anything, however ineffective, that may help an out of control situation.

Steve

The Zohan

Oh yes and as for 'Tough on crime, Tough on the causes of crime' - bullsh*t!

The government do not seem to be taking this seriously and i dare say will not untill it directly effects them or their own!

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I havent read the whole thread, but I think it is a pretty dumb question.

YES, the Government are nuts. There is no question about it. It has been proven many many times.

As for the guns issue, well that is not totally nuts, but I dont see it making much difference, other than possible criminalizing more inoncent people who do hold a firearm.
Over here pretty much any sort of gun is illegal whether it be real, or air powered. I know plenty of people however with air pistols though ( If we got caught with them, then the penalites could be quite severe, with a very likely jail term ). Also more worrying, is that I know people who have acccess to real guns, some legally held with license, some not. Banning them isnt the answer, as the real criminals will get hold of them if the need to, this country is proof of that.
There are people here running round here with AK47's, and I am aware of some people ( very indirectly ) that if they needed to, could get hold of RPG rocket launchers etc etc...
I dont think that most people should have access to real guns, but banning them may just turn more normal people/citizens into criminals, and jailing them for having them.

Basically we arent allowed to defend ourselves at all. If we get attacked, we just have to hope they dont kill us, as if we try to defend ourselves, we become the criminal.

Si James

Silvieturbo,

As you know the British government use the NI situation as a proving ground for repressive laws and strong-arm tactics, if it works in NI then it *may* be suitable for use in the mainland.
Gradually all our liberties get eroded.

I just get pissed off over the Dunblane thing, it was obvious the ban was not going to work, and possibly have the effect of increasing gun use. That has now happened. Now even more stupid "knee-jerk" laws are being proposed.

My local plod is just itching to find an excuse to relieve our household of our shotguns, even though we use them for clay shooting at a legitimate club. We are almost treated as criminals and suspects for having legally held weapons. It sucks.

IMHO its all about political posturing and control.

What happened to "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"? A gun is not a cause of crime.

Letting burglars off first time offences is not being tough on the causes of crime.

Nevetas

I've seen the official Home Office press release. The media are whipping it all up into a frenzy.

The most important section is that the Home Office is looking at plans to stop future sales and licensing of current tandem air cartridge guns (Brocock etc.)

The other two changes:
"...legislation will be brought in to ban anyone carrying a replica or air weapon in a public place without a good reason. The age limit for acquiring and using an air weapon without adult supervision will be increased from 14 to 17."

With the exception of tandem air cartridge guns there are no plans to license or ban any airguns.

Si James

What is a "good reason" though?

Its like the offense of "wearing a loud shirt in a built up area". what is a "loud shirt".


Si

Nevetas

Good reason is normally vermin control, or on your way to a club, something like that.

Not, oh just going down to my local K mart

ajm

To answer your question, yes they are nuts.

I am one of the legitimate owners that lost out thanks to the last knee jerk legislation, and now a few years down the line I get to see the gun crime figures rising so we have been proved right - it was all pointless.

Thanks labour. (I didn't vote for you btw)

[Edited by ajm - 1/9/2003 9:17:09 AM]

The Zohan

IMHO
Banning guns does not seem to have any effect other than on the sport shooters, I speak as one who used to shoot small arms/pistols at my local club.

I happen to like shooting as a hobby and was pi$$ed off when I was effectively stopped from doing so.

If criminals want firearms then they will get them, easy as that.

Banning replicas/Co2’s - big deal, if these people where 'smart' enough to mod replicas then they will find another way/source.

5 years sentences for those caught in possession - hmm, a step in the right direction I suppose? Although not likely to deter the serious criminals who use them, there are people who live outside of the law, people who are dealing in class A drugs and such like and are likely to be doing a lot more time if caught anyway.

Education is one way along with communities not putting up with it and making sure these villains are ‘grassed’ on for their offences. A lot of films/programmes do not help with glorifying shootings, it may make great telly but how many times do you see someone shot then get up and run away/whatever, it isn’t like that - people die of are seriously injured by gunshots unless very lucky. People and especially kids who need to know that it is not a game.

Banning guns does not work, has not worked and will not work; it is a knee jerk reaction from a government caught on the back foot and need to be seen to do something. History has proved that this is not the way.

As the saying goes ‘Guns do not kill people, people kill people’, It is so true if criminals want firearms then they will get them on the black market as easy as pie.
Once they have them then they have a choice.



[Edited by Paul Habgood - 1/9/2003 11:58:21 AM]

The Zohan

Dave P

Zero import will not stop guns coming into the country, criminals do not as a rule go down to the local gunshop, show their permit and buy a firearm(s) over the counter. There will always be people who will supply a demand, the price will just go up!

Life sentances - Do not see this working for the sort of people it is likely to be implimented on, as i have stated they live outside the law. These laws only really work on the law abiding people who do not carry firearrms to commit crimes.

Quote from Dave P
That said, I would wager that most guns used in crime enter the country illegally and the comment earlier that a gun in itself is not the danger but the human that fires it is, in my opinion is a little odd. If the gun wasn't there the human wouldn't have the choice to fire it.

Reply
It is the mentality of the people using weapons, do you think that they would simply give up crime if they did not have guns???, it would be knives, hamers, clubs, swords, crossbows, etc.

People kill people - no-matter what weapons are involved.






[Edited by Paul Habgood - 1/9/2003 1:30:16 PM]

The Zohan

RB

Banning handguns - Cat 1 - ie 'real' handguns which discharge through the barrel have been pretty much banned for a while - This has had no effect on usage of illegal firearms. This has gone up significantly. People who legally held/hold firearrm keep them secure in safes at home or gunclubs, they are regularly assesed by the Police and this generally works/worked fine.

The problem are people/criminals who live outside of the law and have no respect or give a f**k about the law or others.

Banning blank firers will have no impact - gun usage is on the way up regardless of a ban. those poor girls in Birmingham where shot with a fully automatic machine gun (pull the trigger and hold it until the magazine empties itself or you release the trigger)- these have never-ever been legal in the UK, do you think a ban made any difference.

As for one less gun on the streets - Broken record mode on again

If criminals want them then they get them. People need to be held responsible for their actions.

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 1/9/2003 2:16:09 PM]