ozzy

Mike,

May I suggest you get off your backside, step away from your desk and go drive the thing

I would

Stefan

ex-webby

Hi All

Wurzel

There is always a possibility that people will crash a car, no matter how much safety has been put in to it. The esp systems of Mercs, BMs, etc CAN do things that in the wrong circumstances could cause you to crash. This is exactly the same as a seat belt causing death in SOME circumstances.

Adding 200 BHP to a saloon car could be considered something that is too dangerous. Adding something that gives an inexperienced driver more ease of control over the car seems to be a good thing to me?

Bare in mind also, that the system is not designed just to do the job it was doing on the scoob I drove. That car just had a software map in it that did what it did.

You COULD program it to simply act like a viscous diff, or to act like a switchable diff lock, etc, etc. So the system is something that has great potential, what you / the manufacturers use it for is a completely seperate issue.

Pete

LOL! I don't think even a computer would be sad enough to attempt that record!

All the best

Simon

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Ahem! any extra servicing ala AYC Simon?

F

ex-webby

Sorry Floyd

I don't know. I'll try to find out though.

All the best

Simon

oradba69

Maybe Sony can be convinced to supply the software since they have so much experience with GT:-)

Adam M

am going to get hold of a copy of that whole patent.

will be a pdf if anyone else wants it.


no way this will be adaptable to standard diff. to be able to control 0 to 100% torque output per wheel will require some flasy diff hardware along with g sensors and wheel slip via the abs sensors no doubt.

No way this would be cheap to retrofit. To install from scratch would be expensive too but possibly cheaper if done on construction.

to my knowledge evo 6 system was just active rear diff, 7 may have added centre diff into the equation. By adding front one too this system should be much more capable, but obviously until I read the patent, not sure thats how they do it.

Will download when I get to work, cant do it from home.

ex-webby

Adam

Could you check to make sure that giving out copies of the patent would not be piracy please. I'm sure you would have anyway. If not, I'd love a copy.

Can I just check something... were you under the impression that it might be something that's possible to use with standard diffs? Or are you just saying "wouldn't it be great if something could be adapted to use standard diffs".

I would think it's miles out of the realms of possibility as the diffs are one of the main parts of the system.

cheers

Simon

rapiddescent

I just read the above topic with fascination... I think the similarity between flight control systems for aircraft and this have to be mentioned.

it is well known that human corrective flight systems are known to be good for 99% of the time - but the rest it can be fatal - and be very difficult to investigate.

example:
+ The F22A accident where a pilot and the computer literally were fighting each other - leading to a fatal crash. Humans have a habit of doing extraordinary and unusual things at the wrong moment and confuse any software program because the programmers didn't think of that eventuality! (Hence the reason a human can beat a supercomputer at chess)

rd

ex-webby

Hi All

OK, more from Damiam at Prodrive.

Servicing (this is quite impressive).

The testing so far has seen wheel barings and entire engines fail long before and serious wear on the system, so indications are that they should achieve their goal of "sealed for life". This is another contrast to the Mitsi (as we already know).

It's too early to be able to guarantee that (as it seems) but the current strip down of the car is looking closely at the amount of wear that it has had.

all the best

Simon

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Rapiddescent, that was my point exactly, people are iratic and will do anything if they think they are in danger, a computer will only do what it is programmed to do, and sorry to say people are faster than any computer.

TopBanana

It isn't

Jza

Wow!!!

An active "driver aid" that actually IMPROVES the driving experience!!!!

Thats sound fab...

Are there any plans for selling this via the dealer network like the PPP ????

Jza

ex-webby

Hi Jza

There are no finalised plans for release of the system. I really don't think it would hurt to show our interest though as it's probably a lot more likely that it would end up being mass produced for the subaru market.

cheers

Simon

Phil Harrison

This latest touches on the first question I asked myself, namely "Why have Prodrive given this privilege to Scoobynet?" - especially given the slightly downbeat remarks at the beginning of the thread as to whether the system was marketable/to be marketed? Is this a pre-preliminary market test? Are they just being friendly 'cos we're nice Guys & Gals (and some of us knowledgeable enthusiasts)?

Please don't interpret this question as being cynical.... I'm just genuinely intrigued......

Phil

ex-webby

Hi Phil

IMHO (this is not official - just my interpretation) Prodrive have a lot of respect for the people on scoobynet. We are one of their biggest market places in that we're all mad on the performance end of the Subaru range (which is a big part of their business). Then add to that, the HUGE group knowledge and understanding that exists on here.. understanding of all things.. about cars, but also about commercial issues. We would surely be a good guage of how this system would be perceived?

Bare in mind they DO do work for other companies, not just subaru.

You may well find, that if this WAS a specifically made product just for Subaru, we would be less likely to have been honoured with the exclusive.

Either way, I think we should see this as a good thing rather than a "conspiracy" (ps.. I know you didn't mean that it was)

Phil Harrison

Thanks, Webby No ulterior motives whatever in my post - I was, and am, genuinely intrigued. After all, expert technical comment can be pretty limited until the experts know more about the systems: and driver response can be pretty limited until the whole of Scoobynet has driven it

It'll be interesting to see who in the Motoring Press has picked up on this thread (or on a separate privileged invitation), and in what terms they write, and how soon! I await next week's Autocar with bated breath

I'm with the (rather small) cautious brigade. I don't underestimate for one second the fun-factor to be had, nor the need for a wider face to accommodate the grin, nor the benefit for those who drive in the various motorsport disciplines! But for road use, the speed at which I corner is governed by 1) the need not to make an STi-shaped hole in the hedge, and 2) the need to be able to pull up if there's an idiot doing something idiotic (or some other emergency) Anything which improves 1 prejudices 2 (tho' no doubt there's a tiny improvement in pull-up time to be had), so this is a bit of a 2-edged weapon!! I wonder what insurance companies might make of it? (you there, Rum, to give a view????)

Phil

(On a personal note, thanks for getting into the bad behaviour....SN has been much more civilised, without the debate being stifled)

johnfelstead

Like i said earlier, give it to me, i'll melt the bugger, i am famous for that.

I wonder if this is using fly by wire throttle control too? I hope not. The new USDM STi 2.5T is fly by wire throttle incidentally.

At the end of the day if you are driving the car to its limits on the road then you are driving way too fast anyway. I see this system as being quite a mild tune setup for road use, then maybe having the nutter maps selected for when you want to go on track.

I think a big market for this is going to be clubman rally cars, if you can get the price to a not so stupid level, because the active WRC cars are just insane costs. I cant see how this could be sold for £1500? I take it this has extra hydraulic pumps that need installing on the engine, plus all the hydralic lines from the control valve assembly? We could do with more detailed info on the technical design and implementation really.

It sounds interesting, is it afordable though? i know current active systems i have seen on WRC spec cars sure arent.

NDT

Only one error on SDBs initial post - ATD stands for Active Torque Dynamics....

Tools like this are all leading to "branding by wire".
Put exactly the same hardware in one platform and have a number of different models behaving differently through using different calibrations of the software....

Or the ability to tailor driving characteristics to each driver - the safe and predicable mode for someone who rarely drives the car, the track day setting, the hooning round roundabouts in Milton Keynes setting.....

MikeSTI7

Great post Simon this sounds fantastic, but I think you need one foreigner to go with the Scoobynet plus member ;-)

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

MikeSTi7 good Idea on the foreigner thing I had better go instead as I am closer than you

ex-webby

Hi All

More from Prodrive (Thank you to Damian for his continued interest in answering all our questions)...

Something to note on the "it surely can't be innexpensive". The majority of the components listed above are found in most ABS systems. The WRC units are built to be absolutely bullet proof over the most challenging conditions immaginable, and of course they are built in very small quantities.

Remember also that things like ABS, active damping, AWD systems, etc all came from motorsport (or aviation in the case of ABS) and were ridiculously more expensive than could be considered possible for road cars when they were only made for the competition cars.

With regard to Phil Harrison's comment about limit driving. Damian found this an interesting subject and wanted to reply as follows...

<quote start>
When I was a boy*, I had a Mk1 Ford Escort with crossply tyres. Being
a student, I couldn't afford an RS2000 or even any tuning work, but I
could afford two radial tyres. On the front axle in combination with
the cross-plies on the rear (completely dangerous and totally illegal)
they produced a grin-inducing body slip angle at the drop of a hat.
It's taken a long time, but now I have something that is as easily
enjoyable as that, but with four times the power.

Yes, the system was conceived with fun in mind. However...

Despite my cavalier (small c) behaviour on track, on the road I'm
remarkably sensible. In fact, until earlier this year when I drove a
hire car off a straight piece of snowy road in Sweden at 35 mph**,
I've never left the public road and hardly anyone has died as a result
of my driving***. One of the things about "new generation" FWD and
4WD cars that disturbs me is their "passive oversteer/power
understeer" characteristics. While it's great fun on a track to
arrive at a corner "nearly too fast" and flick the car in
off-throttle, then get on the throttle to manage the slide, there are
two problems for that with road cars:

1) There is a fine line between "nearly too fast" and "really too
fast"
2) Being able to stay on the throttle to balance the car presumes not
much changes. Anyone who has lifted off mid-corner in an Evo 7
because of circumstances beyond their control will know what I mean.

In a rear-wheel drive car, the approach is "slow in, fast out". This
is inherently safer but can't really be applied to current high power
4WD cars because of the power understeer. ATD not only allows but
positively rewards such a driving style, without the white knuckle
ride between slide and spin of a RWD. An unexpected event that causes
the driver to back out leaves a stable, boring car.

* Relatively speaking
** Don't ever ask me about this. Ever.
*** This is humour. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has died as a result of my driving.
<quote end>

I would just like to add, that *I* nearly died of a heart attack as a result of Damians driving!!! (but that's nothing personal.. ask ANYONE i've been a passenger with!).

cheers

Simon

johnfelstead

you mean he changed out of first gear Simon! You are the biggest wuss of a passenger on the planet. LOL

The thing i dont understand from your comments re costs is how is this modulating the handling? If it is doing it with active diffs then it's still going to be very expensive?

ex-webby

john

why? Active diffs at present are incredibly expensive because they are built in very low qtys.

Imagine the cost in making a one-off DCCD like in your car. But then turn it in to a production unit (even for the small qty's of cars it was made for) and it becomes affordable.

cheers

Simon

johnfelstead

OK, we are looking at this from two diferent angles. I am thinking more in terms of a retrofit system, your looking at is a production car system. In that case i agree, although it will still up the price compared to the non active car a fair chunk IMHO. £1500 extra, maybe?

Just tell Subaru to give us the god damn DCCD for now on UK cars! If history repeats itself we wont get this system offered to us until the Japanese and USA markets have been running it anyway.

I am not getting excited yet, thats for sure.

ex-webby

LOL!

You crack me up john

Look back at page one where i say



The exciting thing is the technology and that prodrive have developed it for use on road cars.

The next step is for manufacturers (not just subaru) to take on the technology as a standard or optional fit on their cars.

All the best

Simon

Phil Harrison

Thanks, Simon - and Damian - for taking up my point! Clearly, you need a 'progressive' Joe Soap to drive the car next.....I know just the man

One of Damian's points puzzles me, and emphasises the difference between Joe Soaps, and those whose preferred mode of progress is, like a crab - sideways. He says
In advising a newbie on the board in the last couple of days I, and many others, have all said "Slow in, fast out".... and one of the reasons I enjoy my Scoob so much is because this is precisely the approach (well, fast in, even faster out where possible) I grew up with on RWD - um - 39 years ago, so I'm driving the way I feel is 'natural'. To have Damian say it ain't the right approach (for road driving) is a trifle disconcerting. I have to say, that for me it seems to work very satisfactorily

Phil

MorayMackenzie

I believe that certain manufacturers (GM being one i think) are developing performance oriented active 4WD systems that consist of 3 open diffs (no LSDs) with torque modulation and distribution controlled using active brake force distribution. IIRC, the system can send 75% of the cars torque to one wheel if it needs to... so there is a fair bit of flexibility available for mapping torque distributions to provide interesting handling programs.

Caronte

I personally can't see a possibility other than slow in-fast out in a 4wd.

ex-webby

for hooning around (don't try this at home)...

AWD is more suited to fast in, on the brakes, lots of sideways, silly angles, then gas and 4 wheel drift through the corner.

RWD is more suited to balanced smooth entry, get on the gas, rear steps out, balance it on the throttle / steering.

I think this is what damian is refering to.

All the best

Simon

Caronte

mm, i tried it on track. Sideways doesn't pay. Clean pays more.

For ralling is a different story.
But that's my personal experience