ATD Scooby at Prodrive - EXCLUSIVE FIRST DRIVE!
16 January 2003, 11:26 PM
#91
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Blinkin hell, only just found this !!, this sounds absolutely top notch. Surely if I could have bought this as an upgrade for 2 or 3 grand I wouldn't have bought a track car and would have kept the Impreza.
Hell, I'd probably by an Impreza entirely to get this stuff put on it - I love Gooning
Be a perfect tow car / wet weather car. Yummy, I just hope someone (anyone) puts it into production.
Gary
Hell, I'd probably by an Impreza entirely to get this stuff put on it - I love Gooning
Be a perfect tow car / wet weather car. Yummy, I just hope someone (anyone) puts it into production.Gary
17 January 2003, 12:50 AM
#92
from what simon has posted it seems this system isnt being developed as an aftermarket product, but a factory fit optional extra, or even standard equipment.
Moray, i would think the problem with active systems relying on brake force torque distribution is that if you give that to an advanced driver you are going to burn the brakes out.
Moray, i would think the problem with active systems relying on brake force torque distribution is that if you give that to an advanced driver you are going to burn the brakes out.
17 January 2003, 11:49 AM
#93
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John,
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
17 January 2003, 11:50 AM
#94
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John,
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
17 January 2003, 12:02 PM
#95
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John,
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
I am aware of that issue, and I expect that the motor manufacturers involved in developing it may have spotted that one too. I was merely pointing out another line of development. Don't shoot the messenger.
Moray
17 January 2003, 01:47 PM
#96
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Sorry about multiple posts. Submitted post and was told "bbs is closed", natural assumption was that if the BBS is closed it will not be accepting new posts, so I backed up and tried again after a while... evidently, all three failed attempts did actually post, which is not what you would expect.
17 January 2003, 03:22 PM
#97
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guys, there is another difference when using the braking in that you have to waste the power in heat.
By using torque controlled diffs you can redistribute the torque across all the wheels thereby wasting less, albeit meaning you will most likely be going faster. At that point an effective system could cut engine power anyway. Meaning you could by a combination of slipping hydraulic diffs (effectively 6 torque converters) and ignition control have complete traction control without wasting any energy in braking, of wearing out discs and pads prematurely.
Simon,
active diffs are expensive, even when made in bulk (they are already by the way), this is just the nature of the technology. It isnt the diff itself that is expenisve as the hydraulic controls needed to operate them, and the labour required to plumb the gits. The technology as I have stated before is exactly the same as the torque converter used in nearly all automatic gearboxes, except in that case they have one input and one output. These would have one input and two output (hence two torque controllers per torque junction).
To my knowledge the hardware has been emplyed in porsche 911 turbos (the 959) and skylines for years now. as well as in the rear diff of the evo 6.
The control hardware is as they say no doubt incorporated into a lot of the abs system, with the exceptioon of the G sensors, but I believe evo 6 ayc uses them, and I know the skyline system has them too.
In short I would think the g sensors and the hydraulic diffs and control would be the only extras, but as stated earlier, the surtracs wont be cheap and if these are beign substituted anyway, £1500 is perfectly acceptable from the factory.
Retrofit for parts alone I would be surprised if it was less than £5000 in parts, especially for us type r owners who dont have abs sensors.
Simon, you make me laugh, of course I am not going to do anything illegal!!!! Apart from US applications, all patents (except those kept secret for defense by governments) are published 18 months after their first official filing date, and the publication is open to public inspection. Normally it will cost money to obtain a copy as you have to search through peoples records and pay searchers to do this.
since its my job I have an account which lets me search entire text content and drawings of any published patent, and it is this I am going to use.
By sending you an electronic copy I am just saving you the job of getting it yourself. If prodrive take, issue with this (would be a landmark case if they did) give them my number!
By using torque controlled diffs you can redistribute the torque across all the wheels thereby wasting less, albeit meaning you will most likely be going faster. At that point an effective system could cut engine power anyway. Meaning you could by a combination of slipping hydraulic diffs (effectively 6 torque converters) and ignition control have complete traction control without wasting any energy in braking, of wearing out discs and pads prematurely.
Simon,
active diffs are expensive, even when made in bulk (they are already by the way), this is just the nature of the technology. It isnt the diff itself that is expenisve as the hydraulic controls needed to operate them, and the labour required to plumb the gits. The technology as I have stated before is exactly the same as the torque converter used in nearly all automatic gearboxes, except in that case they have one input and one output. These would have one input and two output (hence two torque controllers per torque junction).
To my knowledge the hardware has been emplyed in porsche 911 turbos (the 959) and skylines for years now. as well as in the rear diff of the evo 6.
The control hardware is as they say no doubt incorporated into a lot of the abs system, with the exceptioon of the G sensors, but I believe evo 6 ayc uses them, and I know the skyline system has them too.
In short I would think the g sensors and the hydraulic diffs and control would be the only extras, but as stated earlier, the surtracs wont be cheap and if these are beign substituted anyway, £1500 is perfectly acceptable from the factory.
Retrofit for parts alone I would be surprised if it was less than £5000 in parts, especially for us type r owners who dont have abs sensors.
Simon, you make me laugh, of course I am not going to do anything illegal!!!! Apart from US applications, all patents (except those kept secret for defense by governments) are published 18 months after their first official filing date, and the publication is open to public inspection. Normally it will cost money to obtain a copy as you have to search through peoples records and pay searchers to do this.
since its my job I have an account which lets me search entire text content and drawings of any published patent, and it is this I am going to use.
By sending you an electronic copy I am just saving you the job of getting it yourself. If prodrive take, issue with this (would be a landmark case if they did) give them my number!
17 January 2003, 03:31 PM
#98
No issue at all adam. Not understanding the legalities I just wanted to make sure, but also stated that I'm sure you would have checked this anyway.
I may talk to prodrive to find out if a retro fit package *could* be developed in a relatively small qty as I would without question be interested if it wasn't astronomical.
cheers
Simon
17 January 2003, 03:50 PM
#99
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as I said simon, gonna be a lot for our cars although now that I have spec in front of me can verify if I am right or wrong.
you should have mail in about 30 secs sicne I have now scanned it in for you.
A patent should have enough info to allow a man skilled in the art to work the invention, so there should be enough for most of us to understand how it works (trust me this is not always the case).
interestingly, on the back page of the patent is the result of the preliminary search report, and you will notice there are three references marked with an X.
This means that as far as the patents searching office is concerned, the patent in the form for which I have a copy, is not new and as such is not entitled to be granted a patent!
looks like the prodrive guys may have to be paying some royalties if they sell this!
you should have mail in about 30 secs sicne I have now scanned it in for you.
A patent should have enough info to allow a man skilled in the art to work the invention, so there should be enough for most of us to understand how it works (trust me this is not always the case).
interestingly, on the back page of the patent is the result of the preliminary search report, and you will notice there are three references marked with an X.
This means that as far as the patents searching office is concerned, the patent in the form for which I have a copy, is not new and as such is not entitled to be granted a patent!
looks like the prodrive guys may have to be paying some royalties if they sell this!
17 January 2003, 04:16 PM
#100
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ok,
read it cover to cover and gotta say i am dissapointed.
First it uses two active torque diffs, not 3, so there doesnt appear to be the possiblity of sending 100% torque to one wheel. Oh well.
Second it relies in inputs from g sensing and the steering wheel to figure out what is happening and what you are trying to do, then it redistributes torque affect wheel speed in order to help.
ie. sharp turn it sends more to outside wheels. It does state that ideally this should be done by modulating the supply of torque rather than applying the brakes, but it doesnt rule out braking as an option.
I have a sneaky suspiciion that this may not be exactly what was fitted to simons test car.
I also think the real brains will go into programming the brain of the system to know what you are trying to do.
read it cover to cover and gotta say i am dissapointed.
First it uses two active torque diffs, not 3, so there doesnt appear to be the possiblity of sending 100% torque to one wheel. Oh well.
Second it relies in inputs from g sensing and the steering wheel to figure out what is happening and what you are trying to do, then it redistributes torque affect wheel speed in order to help.
ie. sharp turn it sends more to outside wheels. It does state that ideally this should be done by modulating the supply of torque rather than applying the brakes, but it doesnt rule out braking as an option.
I have a sneaky suspiciion that this may not be exactly what was fitted to simons test car.
I also think the real brains will go into programming the brain of the system to know what you are trying to do.
17 January 2003, 04:35 PM
#102
Adam
*IMHO*
I think that patent is a very VERY vague stab at an original patent, but does not (as you assumed) represent the system they are using today. The base concept of active diffs is NOT new technology as it's been used on WRC cars since they first came out (and i believe group a cars prior to wrc). So the patent is not "the system".
Ed
I think you've mis-understood. This system is not a system for the Impreza and it is not the same as the AYC system used on EVOs. This is a Dynamic Torque distribution system. It can then be used on cars from any manufacturer should they choose to use the system.
In addition, (as adam said) the cleverness of this system is in the software. All the components are standard readily available technology (as I understand it). It is what they've done with it that's impressive.
Why is one ABS system better than another? Why is one Engine Management System better than another? They all do *roughly* the same thing.
Either way. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and ATD tastes bloody good
all the best
Simon
*IMHO*
I think that patent is a very VERY vague stab at an original patent, but does not (as you assumed) represent the system they are using today. The base concept of active diffs is NOT new technology as it's been used on WRC cars since they first came out (and i believe group a cars prior to wrc). So the patent is not "the system".
Ed
I think you've mis-understood. This system is not a system for the Impreza and it is not the same as the AYC system used on EVOs. This is a Dynamic Torque distribution system. It can then be used on cars from any manufacturer should they choose to use the system.
In addition, (as adam said) the cleverness of this system is in the software. All the components are standard readily available technology (as I understand it). It is what they've done with it that's impressive.
Why is one ABS system better than another? Why is one Engine Management System better than another? They all do *roughly* the same thing.
Either way. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and ATD tastes bloody good
all the best
Simon
17 January 2003, 06:34 PM
#106
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john, am at home now so cant, but simon possibly could.
I think to be honest it may well actually be correct since so far I have been unable to find anything more modern in terms of handling enhancement.
I may well have been looking at the right patent, but as I say the main capability of the system is in the software.
I think to be honest it may well actually be correct since so far I have been unable to find anything more modern in terms of handling enhancement.
I may well have been looking at the right patent, but as I say the main capability of the system is in the software.
19 January 2003, 05:04 PM
#111
does anyone have any details of the North American one? Is the system called ATD on that car?
John, how do you know it's not the same one? Do you have specs, etc?
Cheers
Simon
John, how do you know it's not the same one? Do you have specs, etc?
Cheers
Simon
19 January 2003, 05:40 PM
#114
the USDM STi and the JDM STi are just using the DCCD-A system simon.
I cant see this system going on to a production Impreza already, your first post says its brand new and has been top secret. If it was already on a production car we would have heard about this ages ago. Just simple logic really.
I cant see this system going on to a production Impreza already, your first post says its brand new and has been top secret. If it was already on a production car we would have heard about this ages ago. Just simple logic really.
19 January 2003, 05:48 PM
#115
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John
Judging from what Si's 1st post said I think the system is being shown to various car makers. Once one of them buys it, then I suspect that it'll be 2-3 years before it's put onto a car. So, in reality it's probably 5 years away if a mainstream(e.g ford) buys it and 3 if a specialist(e,g TVR) buys it.
Judging from what Si's 1st post said I think the system is being shown to various car makers. Once one of them buys it, then I suspect that it'll be 2-3 years before it's put onto a car. So, in reality it's probably 5 years away if a mainstream(e.g ford) buys it and 3 if a specialist(e,g TVR) buys it.
04 February 2003, 07:47 PM
#119
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hi there it is very technical and it is hard to explain but basicly it makes the car fully active! without abs sensors it has its own programable ecu and we have "5"!!! maps that you can put in if you want and is mapable to your own settings.
if you would like a demo come down on one of my test days & i will show you.
regards Ian Carter
maxspeed
if you would like a demo come down on one of my test days & i will show you.
regards Ian Carter
maxspeed
04 February 2003, 08:10 PM
#120
Could you give us a quick run down on the technical side?
What inputs does it incorporate?
Do they include innertia pack readings, steering, throttle, brakes, speed, etc?
All the best
Simon
What inputs does it incorporate?
Do they include innertia pack readings, steering, throttle, brakes, speed, etc?
All the best
Simon