Claudius

I dont know what you are on about. There are 6 or 8 compensation maps in there. It can control boost with a module, but ideally you'd use an AVC-R.

Alright. That's the key here. What are your needs? What injectors, turbo, sensors, etc do you want to run on what car and how much torque and power do you want to achieve reliably? Do you want to run ALS and / or traction control? If you can answer that, which I suppose you can, you can tell if an PowerFC is good enough for you.

Deep Singh

I think you guys have oversimplified things here.In order of sophistication I would say PPP,Superchips and then Unichip.
Sorry,pissed,could'nt resist.
Seriously though,Pat you've rated some ECUs but you have not mapped some of them ie GEMs/Autronics.Do you not think it unfair to rate something you have never experienced?

Trout...

Claudius,

it was your comment not mine

"the Power FC does basically everything you say but one or two".

From all the information I can gather it does not seem to fit my requirements. So as you say you don't know what I am on about - I don't know what you are on about. From what you have said here - the Apexi Power FC is a very high quality version of the Unichip. If I was going down this path I would go for the Microtech MT8 - which is both cheap and proven to over 600bhp in a Scoob.

Also the Apexi is dependent on the MAF - which is no use on my car.

I got the following from a 25,000km test of a PowerFC on a Skyline done by Autospeed.

"For example, there is no intake air temperature correction chart for the ignition timing, no deceleration enleanment control, no running (ie not just start-up) intake air temperature fuel correction control, and so on. These maps almost certainly exist in the software, but they are not accessible - at least, not via the hand-held pendant, anyway.

However, the most major difficulty that we found was in working out where we were in the fuel and ignition charts - there is no indication (eg by highlighting the correct digits) of which data the ECU is accessing at any one load. Instead, there are load and rpm axes with arbitrary numbers - not actual rpm and manifold vacuum/boost, for example. This means that until some relationship between these axes and the actual load/rpm characteristics of the engine is gained, changes are a little hit-and-miss.

but climbing this particular hill caused just the right combination of throttle, load and engine rpm to trigger the ignition timing that was a tad too far advanced. And the hot weather tipped it over the edge so that it became a noticeable problem. If an ignition timing correction chart had been available, this could have been revised to retard the timing a little more with increased intake air temps - but as mentioned previously, no such chart is accessible.

in fact appears to have no self-diagnosis facility at all.

The APEXi Power FC is really quite staggeringly good. It comes 90 per cent pre-programmed (at least for standard and mildly modified engines), plugs straight into the loom, and works beautifully with the rest of the management system. We quite expected to uncover major starting or driveability problems over the course of the 12 months and were gratified when none appeared. When you consider that the wiring and installation of the programmable ECU takes only minutes and requires no new sensors or actuators, the price becomes substantially cheaper than it first appears - and anyway, they're not expensive to start with!

With a PC link and appropriate English software the Power FC would be damn' near perfect; as it is, we very highly recommend it."

Apexi features with handheld (which are significantly less than with the full PC tuning)

Engine RPM and boost pressure data
Engine RPM plus injector duty data
Injector duty vs ignition timing data
2 channel monitor display
Real time monitor graph data display
Map tracer cursor indicates the exact mapping point for fuel and ignition
Ignition adjust map
Fuel adjust map
Air filter and air flow sensor types
Injector data can be altered for larger injector types
Boost can be altered where boost kit is fitted
Engine Sensor and Switches
On off function can activiate optional boost control kit
Display brightness and contrast
Injector accleration times can be fine tuned at various RPM range
Test mode to allow temporary injector and ignition alterations through out the whole map
Cold and warm start up injector times
Engine temperature compensation
Engine Speed limiter and air conditioning idling

I am certainly not happy having to have separate control units for core engine functions and boost. I would agree with Pat - quality integration is the key.

Finally - Tony Rigoli tried to set up a car with the PowerFC - and although he found that the unit was very good - they could not get it to recalibrate the MAF sensor, and they had built a custom MAF pipe for it - and so the car ended up using the OEM Subaru unit and for the specification of the car they had - lost around 20-30% of the potential power.

Deep,

All the ECus Pat mentioned will run cars very successfully up to around 400bhp - but the higher you go - the more the car is customised in terms of control units and sensors - and the better the ECu needs to be to cope. If anyone can make this judgement it is Pat.

Trout

[Edited by Trout - 1/19/2003 1:00:11 AM]

[Edited by Trout - 1/19/2003 1:06:33 AM]

pat

Ah, lots of posts since my last one...

I'll try to answer John's post re: features basing it on a Pectel T6...

4 bar boost control absolute no problem, we can go up to 5 bar absolute given a 5 bar MAP sensor, boost control does have PID parameters (about 18 tables last time I looked). We can get gear position from a gear position sensor or dervice it from a road speed sensor (I do the latter, the T6 tells me which gear I'm in). I can have per-gear boost calibrations. There are many compensation tables available, basically if it can be measured and it makes sense to adjust engine parameters based on it, then you can probably compensate on it (ie not something like the lap beacon input, which would be silly!). The T6 has the facility for holding two maps, which can be manually or automatically selected. It will run external wastegates with simple or differential air injectors (built in antiphase wastegate control).

Speed is measured to the nearest RPM, all analogue quantities to 10 bit resolution (so for 5 bar absolute MAP, your resolution is 5 millibar). Variable valve timing is available, including BMW Vanos if you want/ need it.

Idle can be stabilised three ways: there is closed loop ignition control which will add or pull out timing depending on how far away from the target idle speed the engine is. There is closed loop (PID) control of the idle speed control valve, and there is closed loop lambda control. The target idle speed is not a constant, it is both coolant temperature and time based, allowing a higher idle when the engine is cold etc. There is also a "catcher" function which will set the initial target higher than the final resting speed, to "catch" the engine as the revs fall, allowing a smooth return to idle.

Map dimensions and points are fully adjustable. Fuelling is four dimensional. There is no DAC output but you can low pass filter a PWM to achieve a DAC function. All outputs are PWM capable, but may be used in an on/off capacity if desired. There can be up to 10 PWM channels on a 4 cylinder engine.

Map size is limited to 400 cells. Most tuners do not see the need to map at anything closer than 500 RPM intervals (they don't have to meet strict emissions regulations), bar perhaps the turbo boost threshold where you can place a few more RPM sites if you want. Yes, it is "small" until you actually work on a 20x20 map, then you realise there's a lot of cells

It will not plug straight in, as the Subaru timing pattern is not compatible with the T6. It requires an X-Y pattern (usually 36-1), this helps it achieve better crank angle resolution. You can put in a base map and it wouldn't be a million miles off regardless of what Subaru you plugged it into, the closed loop lambda could pull it in... obviously you wouldn't drive it like that for long, but it'de get you rolling.

The loom adapters I have made have "broken out" the additional functions, so the basic functions use the Subaru chassis loom, the rest in the custom loom.

The ECU does a self-test upon power up, verifying all used inputs and outputs. User programmable thresholds will detect if an input goes "out of spec" and the system will fall back to a default value. The *ONLY* mandatory input is the crank signal, everything else can fail and the car will still drive.

Wideband lambda (NTK UEGO) drivers have been standard issue since the T6 2000 model (introduced in 2000, strangely enough ). Option of up to two such interfaces, to allow per-bank closed loop lambda control.

Per cylinder fuel and ignition control have been there since day one. Per cylinder knock control was available originally as an expensive mezzanine board but is now standard issue. There is a facility for up to two knock sensors, but one can "listen" to all cylinders, there is a per-cylinder volume trim so that far-away cylinders don't seem less detty than close by ones.

Multiple maps have already been addressed, and are present. Datalogging is available with up to 2MB (maybe more now) non-volatile storage. Also available is a telemetry datastream. Being non-volatile, retrospective downloading of datalogs is easy.

Scripts aren't available, but there are some preset thing you can do like "if the oil pressure is less than 2 bar and the engine speed is higher than 2000 RPM then shut the engine down".

The software is one of the very best I have seen, being intuitive, logical and "helpful". It was developped by Pectel directly from feedback by mappers, that is why it is not Windows based, all the mappers like it the way it is, thank you very much

There is no map checker as such, you'de need to provide a set of rules to get it to check against, it kind of assumes that you know what you're doing.

I think the T6 covers a lot of what you are looking for, John, it costs UKP 1950 plus VAT from Pectel Control Systems Ltd, but of course you need to get a custom 36-1 crank wheel to make it work, and a loom adapter, which tends to raise the price a little.

With regard to the water injection, you can control an output based on RPM, throttle, boost and of course air charge temp. The per cylinder knock compensation will just "do its thing" in the presence of water, but you could take a signal from the low level sender to cut down on the boost. One of the optional features is a fuel pressure sensor input; generally you'de run a differential pressure sensor (fuel pressure minus manifold pressure) and do any pulse width compensations based on the reading.

The price of the Pectel T10S last time I inquired was UKP 9250 plus VAT, and yes it does have MOOG drives. There used to be a T3 ECU which is now discontinued, it was well placed between the T2 (which can run a Subaru but it's a bit of a hack) and the T6 (which does run a Subaru comfortably, and has lots of gizmos).

I could upload a current copy of DESCPRO, the Pectel mapping software with a demo T6 2000 profile if anyone is interested, but it will take you an absolute age to look through all the calibrations, there are literally hundreds!

Deep, you are absolutely right, I haven't mapped a GEMS yet, nor have I mapped an Autronic. I did a lot of research before deciding on the T6, and both were on my list. It's a long time ago now, but each had at least one "key gizmo" that either didn't work the way I wanted it to or wasn't present. Don't get me wrong here, they are both very capable units and would make an excellent Group N ECU, with ALS and all the usual stuff, but I wanted to have my cake and eat it, so I wanted the ability to cope with the AirCon (when I still had it) properly etc etc I don't think it's unfair to rate them in this way, because I had the option of buying them but I decided not to because they didn't meet all of my requirements, whereas the T6 did, and it did it by offering a superset of features, rather than alternate features.

Hope this has addressed all the questions raised

Cheers,

Pat.

Trout...

Pat,



Trout

Bob Rawle

Trout, to answer your original question ..... yes there is. It has all the functionality of the generic version except it will only work with high impedance injectors ... since that's what Scooby uses. Direct drop into the ecu case.

I had one up until yesterday.


cheers

Trout...

Bob,

thanks for replying.

I assume it provides the capability to supplement the loom for the additional inputs - how is this done?

Cheers,

Trout

PS Edited cos I didn't word that quite right to begin with!

[Edited by Trout - 1/19/2003 10:36:57 AM]

john banks

Pat I would love to have a play with DESCPRO. If you want to upload it or email it to me I would be delighted. Thanks for the explanation, it does seem they have included virtually everything, and the price for the T6 is better than expected too. Trout what do you think?

Claudius

I have a MAP sensor replacing my MAF sensor on my PowerFC equipped Evo. There is a PowerFC version with and one without MAP capability.

I dont know who Tony Rigoli is, but I have seen a skyline MAF (much bigger) equipped scooby with a PowerFC. You simply specify the MAF type in the menu. Same goes for injectors and other parts.

The Australian people sound like they couldnt work out how the PowerFC works, and I agree it isnt that easy to figure out, but it looks very good to me.

Tell me: what engine, turbo, injectors, etc do you want to use in your car? You could probably gain 10 bhp from individual cylinder timing etc, but would that be worth the extra cost? I mean I'd like to have an ECU that can do ANYTHING, but how easy would that be to use, how long would a professionnal need to map it correctly, how much would that cost, etc? For 10 or 20 bhp more at a pretty high level... you know what I mean?

Tell me what car you want for what purpose and what kind of torque and power.

Claudius

Pavlo

In the grand scheme of things, £2600 ish for an installed Pectel is not such a vast sum of money and not bad value for money. And at least with a generic ECU, you can put it on any car you choose.

Autronics does most of what is being talked about here, but the Software is a little cryptic at times.

DTA P8PRO is very well specced, being aimed at at the M800 market I think.

Paul

ptholt

My scoob with powerfc will be running (from what ive been told by engine builder/mapper) either a skyline maf or a supra unit so we don't need to use the rather delicate subaru item.

Trout...

Claudius,

Rigoli builds drag Subarus and holds the world record for 1/4 in a manual subaru - his brother built the world record for a Scoob - 9.71s with over 140mph terminal.

So from what you are saying that if I am an expert in Japanese - or can source software that is not available outside of Japan - than I can get some value out of an ECu that has no expertise in the UK. And that isn't integrated - that won't give me diagnosis and datalogging, from others experience does not provide the type of compensations I want, and will rely on parts from other cars that may or may not work for my spec.

My preference - and this is only MY preference - is to get an ECu that can be tailored to the spec I require and the components that I am using.

Even if the Apexi could do all the things I require - and I take it that you say that it does - by the time I have purchased all the bits...ECU, Hand-held, Boost controller, MAF sensor...I may have well have bought something else to start of with.

My short list in degrees of quality and expense would be

Autronic SM2, MoTeC M48Pro, MoTeC M800 and Pectel T6, gulp!

Trout

PS I am not posting my spec and targets on here - if you really want to know then you will have to mail me offline at rannoch1@hotmail.com
PPS When Rigoli was trying the Apexi it was with some people from Apexi as they were encouraging him to try it - so if anyone could have helped it should have been them!

[Edited by Trout - 1/19/2003 11:35:33 AM]

Claudius

There's a playback function, not sure about the datalogging capability. I am not trying to sell you anything, just saying you may be a little OTT. And that takes quite a bit for me to say that!

Later

Claudius

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Just curious why you dont inculde the Micro-Tech, that the Rigolis use?? I recall looking at it myself, and it did seem very cheap.
I also glanced at the software for the Autronic. It looks a bit awkward.

Adam M

claudius,

I know trouts spec, and I have to say, without intending to offend that the power fc would be seriously out of its depth.

I would be seriously against buying an ecu that did not have integral boost control, as on his engine that will be the key.

I faced this same decision some time back on my engine build.

The only way I could see it was that I wasnt holding back on anything else and wanted my ecu to be able to handle everything.

The T6 was the only one that cou;d do this although the M800 came close.

Price wise for the unit itself there wasnt a lot in it.

The advantage I like of the pectel was that they are based in england, and since they are the people that made the ecu they will know how to help immediately even to the extent of coming out to get your car running for you.

my engine will be on the bench dyno, and all the dyno operators I know of in the country are profficient at using the pectel, far more so than the motec.

One thing I will say is ignore the 2300 price tag of the t6. It may be true for the base unit, but from experience, it will end up costing you about 4k . I saved money by having pat build me my loom (adapter in my case but that mat change). You have to fcator in some serious additional costs such as wire! air charge temp sensor, oil pressure sensors, air injectors, wide band lambda sensor, switches, boost control pots, boost control dial.

Then for trout at least to do it properly, the engine dyno session.


and btw, I would not recommend taking advantage of individual cylinder knock control, as our engines have much more varying conditions than the race engines this is normally applied to. Add to this the fact it is normally NA engines which use this, and again turbos are far more affected by atmospheric variables and intercooler efficiency.

I would rather have a buffer of ignition timing across the board for a little extra peace of mind.

David_Wallis

stevieturbo... microtech mt8 has no boost control built in to the ecu.

David

Trout...

Stevie,

I did mention Mictotech on one of my long turgid responses - easy to miss I know

I spoke to Rigoli about it - they love it - but boost control seems to be a combination of boost controllers and bleed valves! Mmmmm - not so good for a track/road car - fine on the drag strip tho!

That was when we talked about the Apexi amongst other things.

Trout

R19KET

Adam,

All the extras you mention, apart from the adjustable Pectel boost pot, and crank pick up, "should" apply to which ever ecu you use, assuming they have the facilities to benifit from them.

Whilst the Motec does appear to be cheaper, IIRC, they charge several hundred pounds for the "wide band" option, where as it's included on the Pectel.

Mark.

Claudius

Hi Adam,

I just got an email from Trout stating his targets. I still think he can use a PowerFC but I agree with getting the Pectel ECU if that's what his people are used to working with and it does all he needs it to. It wont be cheap, though.

Good luck

Trout, YHM.

Later

Claudius

Trout...

I could use a LINK - but I don't think my engine would last very long

As you are so keen on this ECu can you point to a source or sources that describe how it can do all the things I want - even tho I would still discount it on the basis of non-integration and consolidated Datalogging.

From what I can tell if I had to use a separate boost control then I may as well get the much cheaper Microtech as it seems to do all the things I could get out of the Apexi - with no MAF restrictions.

Trout

Claudius

As I said, you can use a MAP sensor with the Power FC. I am doing that. Do you want me to email you a picture of the MAP going into the PowerFC (you dont seem to believe it)?

If you need datalogging, the Motec or Pectel will be better.

Adam M

datalogging is almost essential as far as I am concerned.

Must admit the japanese do tend to use the power fc, but mapping isnt so important to them as it is to us and the aussies/americans.

They are more concerned with with engines themselves and from what I have seen and read tend to be happy with boost controllers, timing controllers, and fuel controllers separately doing their own thing.

Not my preference.

Mark, yes you would need all that stuff on any of the ecus, but only if it has those functions.
The M800 can be supplied with a loom adapter, the pectel cannot and to my knowledge they are at least 600 plus vat unless you have a friend.

The M800 was previously just cheaper than the basic pectel but that was fully equipped. It is only recently that they changed the spec to make it more accessible to those who wanted a stripped down version and didnt need to waste money on unused gadgets.

Once you respec it, it still cheaper than the pectel all in, and only juts shy in terms of features.

It also doesnt require a new timing wheel.

Despite this, I still know which one I would prefer, which is why I bought it.