Jye_0

Why not say what you mean Ben P? BNP right? If that’s the case then say it. Freedom to choose your political party is not illegal, not yet anyhow

SA_ABsolutely

Here is another useful phrase you should learn to recognise if you carry out your plan ...

"Vete a la mierda guiri estranjero de la gran puta. Me cago en tus murtos que piensas que puedas venir aqui, quedarnos sin empleo, atacar a nuestros mujeres . . porque no vuelvas a tu propio pais de mierda, y dejarnos con lo que es nuestro".

Unfortunately, some people there are as ignorant as some people here.

I wonder if the experience would be an eye-opener for you.

Ben P

"Why not say what you mean Ben P? BNP right? If that’s the case then say it. Freedom to choose your political party is not illegal, not yet anyhow"

If I were to say that, then I would be ousted off this message board like on many others. Its good to see that this place is not the "Circle-jerk" like so many other site. But I am neither going to mention or state my political allegience. It is between me and the ballot paper.

SA, what are you trying to imply? Jesus wept another left winger who's too blind to see what is happening here.

cryptwalk

Intresting read, good points made.

Sith
Our thoughts exactly. The asylum seeker who stole everything from the house which he was provided, was in this case deported. Something tells me the 10 strong family whom cause nothing but trouble will go much the same way.

Tractor

Right, I don't normally join in on these things, but I am going to now, as I actually know something about this.

Firstly, I can see in many cases where Katana is coming from - he's getting wound up, but in response to some of the blatant prejudices being expressed on here.

Some facts for you - asylum seekers should be called asylum seekers, as, surprise, surprise, they are seeking asylum. The immigration system is supposed to decide whether they deserve to be granted it or not.

Fact 2 - THEY CLAIM BENEFITS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK. This is very simple.

Fact 3 - The reason asylum seekers come here more than anywhere else in the West is because, for numerous reasons (good welfare, full legal protection given to them) they consider this to be the best place to live. Think about it, they are making a RATIONAL decision to move from a crap life to a better one. Yes, most (but not all) are economic migrants, but this is not a crime in itself, and is in fact a rational form of behaviour that has been exhibited for millenia.

Fact 4 - the problem is not the asylum seekers themselves, it is the system that permits the current crazy state of affairs to continue, in addition the the fact that other EU states are somewhat lax in their border controls and adherence to their legal obligations. As has been said, an asylum seeker must claim asylum at the first stae he/she can. Since most come by road, they should have claimed asylum somewhere else, but for various reasons do not.

Fact 5 - everyone, including the govmt knows something major needs to be done. However, one of the major hurdles is the Human Rights Act. This is a recent piece of legislation which is now law in the UK and sketches out an extremely extensive list of basic human rights to which all individuals are entitled to within the borders of any signatory state (and every EU state). This is a major barrier to reform of the system as the govmt cannot violate its provisions, as may be the case if all applicants are detained, for example.

Fact 6 - do you have any idea how much it would cost to detain 100,000 asylum seekers per year, in dedicated centers?

The problem is the system, rather than the asylum seekers themselves, most of whom just want a better life (as do we all). It is the system that allows criminals seeking a soft target to come here, terrorists to hide, and the deeply corrupt human trafficers to make their living. Hate for asylum seekers is a deeply dangerous thing. I should not have to explain the social effects that such feelings could have on this country.

Since you all feel so strongly on this issue, I suggest you don't whinge and whine when the govmt (hopefully) produces the necessary drastic, but no doubt expensive reform of the system. In the meantime, write to your mp to hassle them to lobby govmt and allow these people to work - that way they will be a net contributor the economy rather than a drain, integration will begin and we can all just 'get along' ...

marty_t3

Tractor,

So what was all the spin about low birth rates in this country and us needing the current level of immigration to sustain the nation's workforce. Doesn't make any sense if these paople are not allowed to work???

[Edited by marty_t3 - 1/21/2003 4:06:36 AM]

Shropshire-Guy

All i can say is Enoch Powell god rest him. He was going to pay for them to go back, and it finished is political career.

Guy Fawks had the right idea. Blow up parliment and start again

bros2

My family were Huguenots who were kicked out of France in the 1770's for our religious views.

Since the Huguenots were mainly skilled workers and professional people, they were usually well-received in the countries to which they fled for refuge. Most of them went initially to Germany, the Netherlands, and England, although some found their way eventually to places as remote as South Africa. A large number migrated the USA as well, especially to the Carolinas, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New York. Their character and talents in the arts, sciences, and industry were such that they are generally felt to have been a substantial loss to the French society from which they had been forced to withdraw, and a corresponding gain to the communities and nations into which they settled.

The key words are "gain to the communities and nations into which they settled", which many current UK citizens fail to realise. Bear in mind that we are almost all of mixed race in some way or other, and that the UK's poulation has constantly been changing over the years.

I understand that there was considerable opposition to Eastern European Jews in the 1930s when they came to England. They'll take over our country, we don't have enough space for them all .... views I've heard promulgated by the Daily Mail all too often. Yet with the benefit of 70 years of history, how much of a problem was the influx of Jews? And how much of a problem was it in 1972 when 30,000 Ugandan Asians turned up at the same time. Can anyone argue that they didn't redefine the term 'work ethic'?

We should have no fear of economic migrants, provided they can prove their case. Nor of political/religious refugees.

bros

The Zohan

<climbs onto soap box again>
Bros

This country is an island and as such has certian limitations
We have limited amounts of land to build on and rescourses.
We do not have enough houses for the people born/live here let alone immigrants.

I believe that something like 155,000 people emigrate from the UK to other countries and there are 770,000 to take their place - you do the math!

And for the Jews coming over in the 30's there where 30 Million people in the UK back then, there are now over 64 million. again you do the math!

Please, please no-one tell me the birth rate is declining and we need more people, go to a hospital and have a look at waiting lists or a housing waiting list and tell me we have enough of these things to go round!

I would rather we send money/aid to these countries and the people stay there and sort out themselves.

Oh one other thing

Why is is we only see young Immigrant males entering the country whenver i watch the News?

Ben P

I would rather they fend for themselves in their own country. How is it that we are responsible for their current situation. If their whole race were not lazy they would not have been poor in the first place. They have themsleves to blame.

Popeye P1

Tractor you said this- 'that way they will be a net contributor the economy rather than a drain, integration will begin and we can all just 'get along' ...'

So what happens when the economy slows down and there's less jobs. Asylum seekers will get 'OUR' Jobs??? I worked at the post-office last Xmas and out of the 300 people they employed, 70 were Asylum Seekers. The manager told me he had to kick out 10 kosovans as they managed to start a letter fight. Also these 70 jobs are job that British people are deprived of.
I know a lot of girls(wink wink) who don't like going into town at night anymore because of the rising number of Refugees roaming the streets. alot of these Kosovans etc think its their god given right to hassle the women in 3's. And as someone I knew got gang raped by these ppl, I just wonder who we are letting in.

All these thousands of refugees is just changing the face of Britain for the worse. Of course we should help the needy but not the whole world ffs.

bros2

<climbs onto soap box again>
Bros

This country is an island and as such has certain limitations. We have limited amounts of land to build on and resources.
We do not have enough houses for the people born/live here let alone immigrants.

>>>We have the lowest density housing in Europe, hard as it is to believe. And anyway, we have LOADS of houses, just not in the rich South. Why else can you buy a house in Manchester for £6,000?


I believe that something like 155,000 people emigrate from the UK to other countries and there are 770,000 to take their place - you do the math!

>>>Not sure where the figures are coming from – you’re implying that ¾ million people will come to the UK in the next year. I believe your figures are incorrect – it’s nowhere near that number.


And for the Jews coming over in the 30's there where 30 Million people in the UK back then, there are now over 64 million. again you do the math!


>>>Yes, but the point made is that the same concerns were raised then as are being raised now. Was there a problem then? No, other than in the minds of the indigenous population. The Jews arrived, worked, and made themselves prosperous. But there were horror stories in the Daily Mail (no change there then) of how they were going to cause massive problems, and that we really didn’t want these funny people who couldn’t speak English in our green and pleasant land. I’m still waiting for the explosion.


Please, please no-one tell me the birth rate is declining and we need more people, go to a hospital and have a look at waiting lists or a housing waiting list and tell me we have enough of these things to go round!

>>>But the birth rate IS declining. You really can’t argue with facts. And the reason we have housing waiting lists is (a) the Tories sold off lots of council houses (b) we have an astonishing number of lazy, feckless native English people who either father children then abandon them or give birth to children without thinking of the consequences. The result is that the state is left to pick up the pieces


I would rather we send money/aid to these countries and the people stay there and sort out themselves.

>>>Would you actually be prepared to do this? It would be VERY unpopular if taxes were to be raised for this.


Oh one other thing

Why is it we only see young Immigrant males entering the country whenever I watch the News?

>>>Because the news services want to show you something that makes a point. Surely, though, if you have fit young men they are more likely to be net contributors to the economy than children or the elderly?


bros

Popeye P1

Bros2 I must step in as you'd get heckled on that soapbox with rotten fruit.

1.'Why else can you buy a house in Manchester for £6,000?'

Because its on a bad council estate, thats why.

2.'you’re implying that ¾ million people will come to the UK in the next year. I believe your figures are incorrect – it’s nowhere near that number.'

You obviously live in a detached white middle class neighbourhood and choose not to see whats happening.

3.'I would rather we send money/aid to these countries and the people stay there and sort out themselves.

>>>Would you actually be prepared to do this? It would be VERY unpopular if taxes were to be raised for this.'

Yes I would rather than having thousands of them coming over here. Whats wrong with helping them in their own country??

4.'Why is it we only see young Immigrant males entering the country whenever I watch the News?

>>>Because the news services want to show you something that makes a point. Surely, though, if you have fit young men they are more likely to be net contributors to the economy than children or the elderly?'

I've never heard such rubbish. Most of these people are young males especially from the Balkans. If they've lived such a repressive life then why do they insist on hassling British girls?

We are a small Island Bros2. For christs sake how many people do you want coming in??

Ben P

I don't want any. In fact I would rather that they leave us alone and head to France or Germany since it is the European Union that imposed this to us. Of all the asylum seekers the Albanians or Balkans as you call it are the worst of them lot. The only thing that Slabo is guilty of is not doing a better job in supressing them.

Tractor

Marty etc. we do have a declining birth rate, the point being that if we don't supplement that with immigration, the economy will shrink. My point is that we should institute a more lenient economic migrancy policy but with restrictions. We should allow x number of unskilled workers, and x number of skilled workers into the economy per year, and regulate this fiercly. Secondly, we should drammatically overhaul the asylum ssystem so that only genuine refugees get through. Bit of a pipe dream that one though.

I agree Paul that we do not have an infinite number of resources, and we should not take the flood of immigrants we take at the moment. However, there are certain benefits to immigration, if only we could control it again. Regarding your second point, the reason why most of these people leave their countries is because they are run by corrupt, incompetent and often oppressive regimes. Giving aid to such nations has been shown time and again to line the pockets of those in power, not to do the masses any good. The alternative is to apply huge pressure on ststaes to reform, which is just what we are all complaining about (in theory) at th moment with Iraq. Unfortunately all such policies become compromised by the selfish interests of states.

Ben P - grow up , open your eyes, learn something you feckless moron. And please never ever work in politics. You scare me.

Popeye, my statement has little to do with your later points. What's this 'our' jobs nonsense? Who are 'we' exactly? White people only? People who were born in the UK only? Somebody who emigrates here is one of us in my opinion, and should be entitled to COMPETE for work on fair terms with the domestic population. If a Kosovan with refugee status is better than a British citizen at a certain job, they should get the job. You are right though, that there is some crime perpetrated by asylum seekers. There are many reaons for this, just as there are for Brits who commit crimes - they can't work and have too much time on their hands, they do not integrate into the local population for many reasons I won't go into unless anyone's interested, and there is abuse of the system by organised crime rings. These are things that must be changed.

Also, as Bros has said, do not believe everything you read in the papers (especially that bog roll the Daily Mail) and see on TV!!


[Edited by Tractor - 1/21/2003 11:05:30 AM]

Ben P

"Ben P - grow up , open your eyes, learn something you feckles moron. And please never ever work in politics. You scare me."

I and the others here are the only ones that are brave enough to voice our oppinions. And if that instills fear in your weak minded PC-brainwashed taliban loving self then so be it. Last I heard, this is a free country.

If you can only see them as they are and not as how the media potrays them to be then you too will understand.

Tractor

"I and the others here are the only ones that are brave enough to voice our oppinions. And if that instills fear in your weak minded PC-brainwashed taliban loving self then so be it. Last I heard, this is a free country.

If you can only see them as they are and not as how the media potrays them to be then you too will understand."

LOL!!!!!! You are perfectly enititled to express your opinion, and I welcome it. Now let me do the same - you are clearly an ignorant racist moron with NO understanding of the way the world works.

And what makes you think I am politically correct and Taliban loving? The Taliban were an horrendously opressive regime that came to power due to the tacit support of the West. Where did they get their guns? We (the West) gave them to them to fight the Russians with.... Had you ever heard of them before Spetember 11th? I doubt it, you wouldn't have been interested because they were only oppressing the lazy and thieving foreigner.

And neither am I PC, in any way. People like you should be deported to Iraq so that you can understand what its like to lead a lazy life dreaming of the West.....

Ben P

Oh here we go again with that race card. It is their fault that they live their life as they do. Had they not been lazy they wouldn't be in that position would they?

[Edited by Ben P - 1/21/2003 11:29:32 AM]

Tractor

Alright Ben, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you can demonstrate to me that your definition of them as lazy is based in fact rather than racism, I'll let you off.

Over to you, justify yourself if you can....

Ben P

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=169348

Good enough for you?

The Zohan

Bros
Re number coming in - there are 770,000 trying to get in each year, got figures from Newsnight or such a week or so ago,, i hope that i have not got it wrong! The ratio was around/at least 4x the number trying to get into the UK, No way should it ever exceed the number leaving the UK. or do you thing we should sit back and blame the tories, labour have been in power for eight years now(?) long enough to make a difference.

As for raising taxes to pay for aid abroard what do you think is happening to pay foe the people coming in and who do you think pays for the privilige!?!

As for harping on about the tories selling off council houses Labour have done their fair share and anyway lets not get away fromn the fact that there is not enough housing and land to build is sparse without developing large chunks of the countyside + the infrastructure to go along with it.

The point is the UK is pretty damn full of people already.

We cannot keep being the dumping ground for the rest of the world - Why do people flood to the UK - Because of our easy immigration policy and the fact that we give Immigrants pretty much what they want when they want it.

We treat some of them better and they get more help/benefits that people who have lived here/born here and paid into the system for the whole of their lives.

Just look at the latest ****-up re housing of immigrants - Blunkett does not know what his flunkies are doing and then goes on to blame the Home Office - Same tw@t who should have resigned over education as he promised to but was moved/saved just in time by Tonies Cronies - What a fecking joke!

It is noit about racism or religion it is about common sense and knowing when enough is enough!

Enough said?

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 1/21/2003 11:48:45 AM]

TelBoy

Agree with Paul, and others with similar views.



This country isn't the same calibre it was when i was a kid. Blame what and who you want, i know i have my opinions. There are *so* many people who are dying to say what they really think, but have to skirt round the issues at the risk of offending "certain" people.
A shame, but the UK has made it's bed, it now has to lie on it.

Ben P

Tractor, this is the kind of people that you are defending.

http://www.webspawner.com/users/islamicjihad2/

Would you want this to be integrated into our English culture?

Tractor

Paul you make some very true points and you are highlighting the real problems with the system.

Ben P. No mate, that is not good enough for me. Give me some facts as to why you think these people fcucked up their own countries by being lazy. Don't just spout what you read in the rags.

StiShrek

Bros2 and Tractor are another fine pair of chuckle brothers.

Get yourself into a big city and open your eyes.

The overwhelming opinion is that this is getting out of hand.

The Uk are not reproducing enough children so we let asylum seekers in who reproduce like rabbits and have large families. They become larger and take over the country. End of. It seems already that our views are less important than theirs?

What happened in the Balkans. The Muslim population got to large and encroached into others territories. All hell let loose. Im not saying this is good (i feel a need to justify everything i say for fear of the race card) but just the way of the world.

If we have to say that in 20years we do not want to be living in an overwhelmingly multi-cultural or multi-religious society then so be it. I dont. I have my own identity like they do.

Why has their been a rise of nationalism in this country especially up north. Not intolerance to other ethnic backgrounds or racism but being Human and being naturally prejudiced.

Do whites live in ethnic areas? Do ethnics live in white areas? On the whole no.

Boils down to tribal instincts.

Tractor

Shrek, I live in London.

"Why has their been a rise of nationalism in this country especially up north. Not intolerance to other ethnic backgrounds or racism but being Human and being naturally prejudiced."

If your 'natural prejudice' applies to ethnic groups, then it is prejudice of a racial slant i.e. racism. Your sentence makes no sense.

The overwhelming opinion here seems to be that this country is going down the sh1tter. And from what I have read I agree, but it is doing so because all the ridiculous scare mongering in the media means that people are losing their tolerance. We are being manipulated.

I used to be proud of the fact the the UK was a tolerant multicultural society, something that is the only hope for the future of mankind in my opinion. Currently we are backsliding into a more archaic ideology of 'us' (white, British Christians) and them (dirty, lazy, criminal, blacks, arabs, muslims etc.), and most of you appear to hold that view.

We have only to look at **** Germany or the Israeli/Palestine conflict to see what lies down that road.

I agree entirely that something major needs to be done to solve the huge problems we have at the moment. But in my opinion the biggest danger is not us losing 'our' jobs to 'them', or marauding Kosovan males hassling girls on the street - It is the metamorphosis of the UK from a decent society to one rotted by hatred. I can see this process starting, and the fact that very few have come into this argument to side with Katana, Bros and myself really scares me.

Not because I am a bleeding heart liberal, but because I have common sense and understanding of the way that societies work.

Be warned. I shan't say anything further.

TelBoy

Maybe. But you obviously don't fully understand how human beings work.

How they always have done.

How they always will do.

Ben P

Well Katana is living in a dreamland thats why. He is in the minority here and tries to impose his radical values upon us. He needs to wake up and realise that in the real world, own kinds sticks together.

moses

katana doesnt have radical views but your just jelous coz u wish u had a black mans ding dong woohoo sorry not in this life

StiShrek

'"Why has their been a rise of nationalism in this country especially up north. Not intolerance to other ethnic backgrounds or racism but being Human and being naturally prejudiced."

'If your 'natural prejudice' applies to ethnic groups, then it is prejudice of a racial slant i.e. racism. Your sentence makes no sense.'

As Telboy says you do have no idea how humans work. Why are their wars between different factions or cultures? Every culture is prejudiced. You bring in the racial card saying mine is of a racial slant and is directed to ethinc groups. My natural prejudice like everyone elses extends to black, white, blue, green, brown.

99.9% dont live in this idealistic noddy noddy land like you seem to where everyone accepts everyone for who they are im afraid.


Just human not a robot.

Trust Moses to come on here. He is more PREJUDICED than anyone against western or non-muslim society.