I don't believe this......
21 January 2003, 04:42 PM
#151
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The government got it wrong years ago... they should have left the criminals behind and shipped the non-criminal population to Australia... 
If people look at the rest of Europe I'm sure you will recall that France had a scare in their elections when their version of the BNP almost got voted in. A lot of that was down to the public being unhappy about immegration.
In Holland, Pym Fortune was assasinated as he also had the same ideas where he wanted to deport immegrants.
Those two had a lot of publicity and many 'normal people' took to the streets to back them.
How long will it be until the 'normal' British are on the streets?
If people look at the rest of Europe I'm sure you will recall that France had a scare in their elections when their version of the BNP almost got voted in. A lot of that was down to the public being unhappy about immegration.
In Holland, Pym Fortune was assasinated as he also had the same ideas where he wanted to deport immegrants.
Those two had a lot of publicity and many 'normal people' took to the streets to back them.
How long will it be until the 'normal' British are on the streets?
21 January 2003, 04:44 PM
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Telboy,
You're correct to query the acceptance of Asian/Carribean/African immigrants. It's not something that takes 10 years, or even 20.
But does anyone really raise an eyebrow now at the thought of a mixed-race marriage? Some might, but it's no longer the taboo it was, say, 30 years ago.
Would you care if your neighbour was African, Asian, or European? Probably not, so long as you could get along with them. That's a major change over my father's generation.
It usually takes to the third or fourth generation to truly integrate unless, like certain strands of the Jewish faith, a determined stand is made not to marry outside their own circle. Personally, I think it's mad, but if they pay their taxes and don't bother anyone, then I'm content to live and let live.
Scot123,
Crime is committed by all types, but look at prison populations - overwhelmingly white, poor, and male. This doesn't mean that all poor, white, males are criminals. In the same way, just because some immigrants are criminals, there's no need to tar all with the same brush.
bros
You're correct to query the acceptance of Asian/Carribean/African immigrants. It's not something that takes 10 years, or even 20.
But does anyone really raise an eyebrow now at the thought of a mixed-race marriage? Some might, but it's no longer the taboo it was, say, 30 years ago.
Would you care if your neighbour was African, Asian, or European? Probably not, so long as you could get along with them. That's a major change over my father's generation.
It usually takes to the third or fourth generation to truly integrate unless, like certain strands of the Jewish faith, a determined stand is made not to marry outside their own circle. Personally, I think it's mad, but if they pay their taxes and don't bother anyone, then I'm content to live and let live.
Scot123,
Crime is committed by all types, but look at prison populations - overwhelmingly white, poor, and male. This doesn't mean that all poor, white, males are criminals. In the same way, just because some immigrants are criminals, there's no need to tar all with the same brush.
bros
21 January 2003, 04:51 PM
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"Crime is committed by all types, but look at prison populations - overwhelmingly white, poor, and male. This doesn't mean that all poor, white, males are criminals. In the same way, just because some immigrants are criminals, there's no need to tar all with the same brush."
I beg to differ.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/1561859
I beg to differ.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/1561859
21 January 2003, 04:54 PM
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Scooby Won't,
'Normal' British people were marching through Whitechapel in support of Oswald Moseley in the 1930's. 'Normal' Americans supported the McCarthy trials in the US in the 1950's. 'Normal' Germans supported a little-known Austrian in the 1930's ......
Public opinion may not always be right. People can be led.
bros
'Normal' British people were marching through Whitechapel in support of Oswald Moseley in the 1930's. 'Normal' Americans supported the McCarthy trials in the US in the 1950's. 'Normal' Germans supported a little-known Austrian in the 1930's ......
Public opinion may not always be right. People can be led.
bros
21 January 2003, 04:55 PM
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bros2, i'd beg to differ with other comments you just made too.
But each to their own. My little opinion counts for nothing in the scheme of things.
But each to their own. My little opinion counts for nothing in the scheme of things.
21 January 2003, 05:02 PM
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StiShrek
Tel Boy
exactly how am i talking poo or is 'you are talking crap' as coherent an argument as you can manage
Jason you are someone who funds our governments stupidity around the world and pays taxes that end up in the pockets of all the landlords making a killing out of housing Asylum seekers. I thank you for this but since I stopped working and paying income tax and national insurance in August last year how please can it be me who is the muppet ?
Tel Boy
exactly how am i talking poo or is 'you are talking crap' as coherent an argument as you can manage
Jason you are someone who funds our governments stupidity around the world and pays taxes that end up in the pockets of all the landlords making a killing out of housing Asylum seekers. I thank you for this but since I stopped working and paying income tax and national insurance in August last year how please can it be me who is the muppet ?
21 January 2003, 05:05 PM
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For you mr evolution, yes it is.
In fact, it was probably TOO coherent.
I will be more careful not to let it happen again. Thankyou for pointing it out.
In fact, it was probably TOO coherent.
I will be more careful not to let it happen again. Thankyou for pointing it out.
21 January 2003, 05:06 PM
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'I was careful to quote the ONS as they are, to the best of my knowledge, independent. After using their data for the last 20 years (I'm an accountant with an economics/econometrics degree) I'm reasonably qualified to comment on the veracity of their output.'
There you have it. Plays the degree card so your information must be right.
Bros2 you obviously are not living in the real world and sit in your plush neighbourhood earning £££££££s thinking how great life is since you dont have any immigrants come live next door or even within 10 miles of your house.
A NIMBY if ever there was one!
In this day and age too many penpushers telling how this is or that and not enough practical people with first hand knowledge.
Do you listen to the government who sit behind their desks like WW1 generals or the front line police officers/immigration officals who have REAL first hand knowledge.
Go into the communties and talk to REAL people.
Dont look at stats and say this is how it is and isnt it wonderful.
Real-life experiences count not pencil-pushing idiots who churn out useless out-of-touch statistics.
Rant over.
There you have it. Plays the degree card so your information must be right.
Bros2 you obviously are not living in the real world and sit in your plush neighbourhood earning £££££££s thinking how great life is since you dont have any immigrants come live next door or even within 10 miles of your house.
A NIMBY if ever there was one!
In this day and age too many penpushers telling how this is or that and not enough practical people with first hand knowledge.
Do you listen to the government who sit behind their desks like WW1 generals or the front line police officers/immigration officals who have REAL first hand knowledge.
Go into the communties and talk to REAL people.
Dont look at stats and say this is how it is and isnt it wonderful.
Real-life experiences count not pencil-pushing idiots who churn out useless out-of-touch statistics.
Rant over.
21 January 2003, 05:09 PM
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"I stopped working and paying income tax and national insurance in August last year how please can it be me who is the muppet ?"
If there is anything worse than foreigners scrounging the government, its English born and bred people that scrounges of the government. It is not a wonder where these asylum seekers get this idea from.
Just think the food that you eat is paid for by me.
If there is anything worse than foreigners scrounging the government, its English born and bred people that scrounges of the government. It is not a wonder where these asylum seekers get this idea from.
Just think the food that you eat is paid for by me.
21 January 2003, 05:17 PM
#162
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I agree thats why I don't scrounge off the government its all pretty simple really and just so you know the square block goes through the square hole not the round one.
The intelligence of the arguments on here devastating I would love to see the likes of shrek and tel boy on priministers question time I can just see it now.
Tel boy: 'You sir are a poo poo head '
Shrek : 'No you sir are a poo poo head '
Telboy : ' No you are a poo poo head'
Benp : 'dam it how do I get the triangle block through the hole 's '
The intelligence of the arguments on here devastating I would love to see the likes of shrek and tel boy on priministers question time I can just see it now.
Tel boy: 'You sir are a poo poo head '
Shrek : 'No you sir are a poo poo head '
Telboy : ' No you are a poo poo head'
Benp : 'dam it how do I get the triangle block through the hole 's '
21 January 2003, 05:19 PM
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Bros - I wouldn't say 'normal' people are racist/fascist/power-crazed/hate-mongers just because they voice their opinions, be it right or wrong.
I was simply pointing out that other European countries have had enough and have voiced their opinions and I was simply asking how long it will be until Britain follows suit.
As for Mosley, it runs in his family. Look at his son Max - President of the FIA. Not a country but he loves interfering with European laws/courts.
I was simply pointing out that other European countries have had enough and have voiced their opinions and I was simply asking how long it will be until Britain follows suit.
As for Mosley, it runs in his family. Look at his son Max - President of the FIA. Not a country but he loves interfering with European laws/courts.
21 January 2003, 05:29 PM
#164
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Right, I'll bite again, why not eh?
Ben P, Mr Evoloution's comments would lead me to believe he has er, 'RETIRED'. In which case, he is no doubt being supported by his own savings/pensions which he has been paying for for his whole life. So Mr Evo, am I right?
And I'll tell all of you, Shrek et al dissing people for quoting statistics at you (which you seem unable to rebuff in any intelligent manner). I worked for a year on the front line of immigration with asylum seekers, in Haringay, and I continue to work in a related field to this day, which necessitates me having a good grasp of the facts.
And I can tell you, it is not Bros2 or myself that has the out of date opinion, having blindly following the opinions of others. It is people like Shrek and Ben P, frustrated by our nations problems, who chose to blaim it all on whomever the media tells them too.
The immigration problems in this country are the fault of successive governments' ineptitude on the issue, followed by the implimentation of the Human Rights Act as Dave TS states, followed by the resultant flood of asylum seekers that the system is not able to deal with.
Crime, abuse of the benefits system etc. occurr for the same reason amongst asylum seekers as it does amongst good ol' god feerin' white folk - BECAUSE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO SO, AND BECAUSE IN MOST INSTANCES IT IS THE MOST RATIONAL COURSE OF ACTION FOR THEM.
It is the fault of the system, and we need to fix it. Resorting to the age old hatreds does not help matters at all. It just gives idiots like you lot something to take your frustrations out on.
Reduce or increase their benefits entitlements to levels enjoyed by the rest of the poulation where applicable, streamline the asylum applications system and deportation process upon refusal, and allow asylum seekers to work. That is the first step we should take imho.
The goverment should also be more transparent in its policies, and not do something stupid as has happened with the Sittingbourne fiasco......
[Edited by Tractor - 1/21/2003 5:33:59 PM]
Ben P, Mr Evoloution's comments would lead me to believe he has er, 'RETIRED'. In which case, he is no doubt being supported by his own savings/pensions which he has been paying for for his whole life. So Mr Evo, am I right?
And I'll tell all of you, Shrek et al dissing people for quoting statistics at you (which you seem unable to rebuff in any intelligent manner). I worked for a year on the front line of immigration with asylum seekers, in Haringay, and I continue to work in a related field to this day, which necessitates me having a good grasp of the facts.
And I can tell you, it is not Bros2 or myself that has the out of date opinion, having blindly following the opinions of others. It is people like Shrek and Ben P, frustrated by our nations problems, who chose to blaim it all on whomever the media tells them too.
The immigration problems in this country are the fault of successive governments' ineptitude on the issue, followed by the implimentation of the Human Rights Act as Dave TS states, followed by the resultant flood of asylum seekers that the system is not able to deal with.
Crime, abuse of the benefits system etc. occurr for the same reason amongst asylum seekers as it does amongst good ol' god feerin' white folk - BECAUSE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO SO, AND BECAUSE IN MOST INSTANCES IT IS THE MOST RATIONAL COURSE OF ACTION FOR THEM.
It is the fault of the system, and we need to fix it. Resorting to the age old hatreds does not help matters at all. It just gives idiots like you lot something to take your frustrations out on.
Reduce or increase their benefits entitlements to levels enjoyed by the rest of the poulation where applicable, streamline the asylum applications system and deportation process upon refusal, and allow asylum seekers to work. That is the first step we should take imho.
The goverment should also be more transparent in its policies, and not do something stupid as has happened with the Sittingbourne fiasco......
[Edited by Tractor - 1/21/2003 5:33:59 PM]
21 January 2003, 05:35 PM
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Scooby Won't
I take your point. Was merely stating that people take to the streets for all sorts of reasons, often based on sentiment rather than fact. As history has shown, what seemed like a good idea at the time has been shown, all too often, to be hopelessly misguided. The Austrians managed to elect Georg Haider's Freedom Party to (shared) government, something they all find rather embarassing now.
As for Max, it's a little unfair to visit the sins of the father upon the son, don't you think?
bros
I take your point. Was merely stating that people take to the streets for all sorts of reasons, often based on sentiment rather than fact. As history has shown, what seemed like a good idea at the time has been shown, all too often, to be hopelessly misguided. The Austrians managed to elect Georg Haider's Freedom Party to (shared) government, something they all find rather embarassing now.
As for Max, it's a little unfair to visit the sins of the father upon the son, don't you think?
bros
21 January 2003, 05:53 PM
#166
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'And I'll tell all of you, Shrek et al dissing people for quoting statistics at you (which you seem unable to rebuff in any intelligent manner)'
Tractor why should i? Who in this day and age believes statistics? Only those with a lack of intelligence.
Have met do-good hypocrites like Mr Evolution, Tractor, Bros2 before (Mostly christian goers). Its alright as long as its not in my back yard types.
At least most here are being honest where you lot stand behind your manufactured stats, your race cards, plush white neighbourhoods and would be the first to deny anyone asylum next door.
You have been infected by the politically correct machine!
Question Time to Mr Evo-
From the audience: Should a policeman be armed?
Mr Evo: Im sorry you will have to re-phrase that to police person since that is highly sexist!!!
Give me strength........
Tractor why should i? Who in this day and age believes statistics? Only those with a lack of intelligence.
Have met do-good hypocrites like Mr Evolution, Tractor, Bros2 before (Mostly christian goers). Its alright as long as its not in my back yard types.
At least most here are being honest where you lot stand behind your manufactured stats, your race cards, plush white neighbourhoods and would be the first to deny anyone asylum next door.
You have been infected by the politically correct machine!
Question Time to Mr Evo-
From the audience: Should a policeman be armed?
Mr Evo: Im sorry you will have to re-phrase that to police person since that is highly sexist!!!
Give me strength........
21 January 2003, 06:02 PM
#167
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LOl at Sti Shrek. Indeed Tractor, Bros2 are completely out of touch. They're just nerds who quote government stats and don't see anything 1st hand. Guys if you really want to see what great things Asylum has done then come to my necks of the woods and see for yourself. But I'd warn you not to go out in the dark- four knifings last week.
Obviously you're the type of people who hate anything thats British and call a Black board a green board or sing BA BA Green Sheep. LOL.
I will LOL LOL LOl when they put up an asylum centre in you're backyard. See how you like it.
Obviously you're the type of people who hate anything thats British and call a Black board a green board or sing BA BA Green Sheep. LOL.
I will LOL LOL LOl when they put up an asylum centre in you're backyard. See how you like it.
21 January 2003, 06:03 PM
#168
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Bros2 you state about the people being wrong by being lead etc. Well nobody is leading us are they. We are not following a hitler etc. are we? This is our own opioins just like you have yours. Are your more correct than the rest of us? I would suggest public opinion dosen't really exist as such - the medias opinion does these days.
21 January 2003, 06:25 PM
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Ben
Homophobia. Lovely.
Clearly, you're entitled to your views, but why seek to change the course of this debate when you're run out of things to say to persuade someone of your cause?
bros
Homophobia. Lovely.
Clearly, you're entitled to your views, but why seek to change the course of this debate when you're run out of things to say to persuade someone of your cause?
bros
21 January 2003, 06:45 PM
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Spent the last hour catching up on this thread, reading the bits I missed and all I can say is its very interesting.
Personally I think that yes, our doors should be open to accept those in need, afterall we are a welcoming nation in a good position to offer help.
But, there is no way it should be carried out in the way our government is doing. New asylum seekers (and a big backlog of those already here) should be properly vetted, and I mean properly. This should happen before they even leave the ports, trains and airports. It may be impractical but its better than letting those who are a problem slip through the net to freely murder police officers etc.
I also think that newcomers should be willing to accept and become part of our customs and traditions.
At the moment we class ourselves as a mutlicultural society. But there is no truth in this other than there are a lot of different types of people here all doing our best not to talk to each other!
At the end of the day we need to learn more about each other before we can get along.
Bros etc... I think you would be best to have a wander around a slighlty less affluent areas. You will learn something.
Personally I think that yes, our doors should be open to accept those in need, afterall we are a welcoming nation in a good position to offer help.
But, there is no way it should be carried out in the way our government is doing. New asylum seekers (and a big backlog of those already here) should be properly vetted, and I mean properly. This should happen before they even leave the ports, trains and airports. It may be impractical but its better than letting those who are a problem slip through the net to freely murder police officers etc.
I also think that newcomers should be willing to accept and become part of our customs and traditions.
At the moment we class ourselves as a mutlicultural society. But there is no truth in this other than there are a lot of different types of people here all doing our best not to talk to each other!
At the end of the day we need to learn more about each other before we can get along.
Bros etc... I think you would be best to have a wander around a slighlty less affluent areas. You will learn something.
21 January 2003, 06:52 PM
#173
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Angrynorth, I agree with you completely mate.
And I'm gonna say this again, I have worked with asylum seekers for a year, I live in W.London at the moment in a mixed black/white area and lived for two years before that in Stoke Newington.
I am not some ignoramous spouting about **** he has no direct experience of, so come up with some other justifications Ben P/Shrek.
And Ben, if it weren't for the human rights legislation that is helping these asylum seekers out, you wouldn't be protected by freedom of speech regs, and be allowed to talk the utter ****e that you do. You are a liability to anyone who has the misfortune to believe what you say.
And I'm gonna say this again, I have worked with asylum seekers for a year, I live in W.London at the moment in a mixed black/white area and lived for two years before that in Stoke Newington.
I am not some ignoramous spouting about **** he has no direct experience of, so come up with some other justifications Ben P/Shrek.
And Ben, if it weren't for the human rights legislation that is helping these asylum seekers out, you wouldn't be protected by freedom of speech regs, and be allowed to talk the utter ****e that you do. You are a liability to anyone who has the misfortune to believe what you say.
21 January 2003, 06:59 PM
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I am currently living off my own savings but I'm over thirty years from retirement age so no pension yet but there are better ways to make money than working or being a criminal.
If all the people I come across who complain about tax payers money being wasted on asylum seekers sacrificed some of the luxuries in life like big cars houses etc and took a genuine stand against the governments waste of their money by stopping working and paying tax for six months then it would force them into appropriate action. At the moment we spend four million a week on bombing Iraq and have done every week since the gulf war ended if Tony spent that on the health NHS and then started to house asylum seekers in all the sink estates around the country then millions could be saved instantly.I do agree that the asylum issue is a problem but I lay the blame were it belongs ie with Tony Blair and the people who have supported him.
Countries like Dubai make full use of immigration by spending vast amounts of money on education for its native people and use immigrants as cheap labour. Many business leaders are putting pressure on the government to lobby for the poorer countries in Europe to join the EU to help supply England with cheap labourers this is completely unneccesary when we have an untapped work force here who are not allowd to work. This would surely satisfy every one since the asylum seekers would get to flee persecution the racists could look down on the immigrants serving them Tony could spend cash on public services and manufacturing and building costs would go down (32,000 for unskilled labour at terminal 5) which would in turn increase exports. Instead of addressing these issues tony would rather spend billions bombing afganistan and Iraq killing innocent people in the process with no gain other than letting Bush build his oil pipeline becuase he doesn't want pay Turkey taxes for transporting oil through its waters.
PS Tactor have you sold the lotus yet
If all the people I come across who complain about tax payers money being wasted on asylum seekers sacrificed some of the luxuries in life like big cars houses etc and took a genuine stand against the governments waste of their money by stopping working and paying tax for six months then it would force them into appropriate action. At the moment we spend four million a week on bombing Iraq and have done every week since the gulf war ended if Tony spent that on the health NHS and then started to house asylum seekers in all the sink estates around the country then millions could be saved instantly.I do agree that the asylum issue is a problem but I lay the blame were it belongs ie with Tony Blair and the people who have supported him.
Countries like Dubai make full use of immigration by spending vast amounts of money on education for its native people and use immigrants as cheap labour. Many business leaders are putting pressure on the government to lobby for the poorer countries in Europe to join the EU to help supply England with cheap labourers this is completely unneccesary when we have an untapped work force here who are not allowd to work. This would surely satisfy every one since the asylum seekers would get to flee persecution the racists could look down on the immigrants serving them Tony could spend cash on public services and manufacturing and building costs would go down (32,000 for unskilled labour at terminal 5) which would in turn increase exports. Instead of addressing these issues tony would rather spend billions bombing afganistan and Iraq killing innocent people in the process with no gain other than letting Bush build his oil pipeline becuase he doesn't want pay Turkey taxes for transporting oil through its waters.
PS Tactor have you sold the lotus yet
21 January 2003, 07:41 PM
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I have been waiting for my new car fund to arrive since December and it seems like I might actually get it in Febuary and I was kind of keeping an eye on your car and few others to take advantage of the christmas slow down.
22 January 2003, 12:35 AM
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I have been waiting for my new car fund to arrive since December and it seems like I might actually get it in Febuary and I was kind of keeping an eye on your car and few others to take advantage of the christmas slow down.
22 January 2003, 12:38 AM
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Anyway, like I tried to explain (but was flamed by ignorants, as usual), the government hasnt got sufficient interest in solving the problems and you people have no means of pressure to do anything about it (unless you stop paying tax, but you're too scared to do that). Which brings us back to the fact that democracy as a system, simply put, sucks.
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