beemerboy

i'm actually 34 yrs old believe it or not.
and my first car was a mk1 mexico, so i guess you could call be a car buff, until the time came where it wasn't about tuning ability or the individual, but about how much money you can throw at something!!

i still enjoy cars, but there is less and less to tweak about with these days.

might get a kit car when the weather and finances allow.

I am only indulging your light hearted banter, not blatent malicious intent.

hang loose. (Do they still say that??)

BB

MGJohn

there you go ..... an enthusiast AND a BMW driver ....

chrisp

Front wheels steer and rear wheels drive LOL.

I prefer all four wheels slide and drive .

Mate had a 525i (190bhp version I think it had) went okay no ball of fire but was bland, boring and predictable but cruised well and not a bad car and easy to get on with IMHO. Dont really think he liked my scoob or any Japanese cars until I took him out in it and changed his mind when the loud pedal went down . Funnily enough he drives a Honda VTec now .

GaryC

Is someones inability to drive in the snow really the only reason to go FWD? From my experience RWD is no more difficult to drive in the snow than FWD - granted more 'Big BMW/Merc' are seen sat spinning wheels but that is more down to the dope behind the wheel that assumes that with his traction control he will not even notice the snow and thus plants the throttle Given all new BMWs & Mercs come with traction control (and very good TC) snow grip realy isn't an issue, especially as if the car does start to slide through loss of driven grip, you have control over the other two wheels to help correct. With FWD, if you break traction, the other two wheels are just along for the ride.

If all you seek is a means of getting from A-B then FWD is the best option. More predictable, more likely to break traction (wet, dry or snow) but will only understeer unless going/doing something stupid. RWD will be a lot harder to break tracion, but when it does, you have to be ready to catch it, but in reality with modern TC equipped cars it is nigh on impossible to get them to oversteer through loss of driven traction.

FWD is a cost cutting compromise, and was deemed the easier mode of drive for the mass of the populus to cope with.

If you are an even modest motoring enthusiast, and enjoy getting the most out of your car, then FWD is surely a compromise?

Not meaning to sound like I'm baiting or criticising you John, but why prefer FWD? I can understand you going for FWD if buying british is the most important function as there arn't any RWD british cars this side of a Jag S-Type (and even, then that is now a US car built in britain!)


....oh and BMW had all wheel drive well before the Land Rover ownership There is now far more X5 in the the new Range Rover than Range Rover in the X5...read into that what you will! Furthermore, improved AWD (particularly off-road specific) knowledge is the only thing BMW got out of the $9bn that the Rover debarcle cost them so it didn't come cheap


PS you'll enjoy the ZS. Best in the MG range IMO (hope its the saloon?), fallen very lucky with the suspension/chassis combo responding to stiffer springs but it does work well.......for a compromised FWD car

sebastian

FWD = crap turning circle

as well as everything else wrong.

chrisp

The point is we are debating AWD v RWD v FWD v 4WD and the funny thing is I bet 85% of drivers on the road havent got a clue which wheels are being driven if you asked them but they all know their badges

MGJohn

GaryC,

As I outlined in an earlier reply, when I bought my first car it had to be Rear Wheel Drive ONLY ... like it or lump it because that was all there was available. It was like that for many years. When FWD came along (a belated Big thank you to Sir Alex Issigonis), no way would you catch this individual driving one of those front wheel drive thinggies .. Remember, I NEVER said I have a problem with RWD, quite the contrary, it's those drivers who buy "superior" cars believing all that ultimate driving experience malarkey, suddenly out of control heading my way sideways at the first slippy surface of winter that is my BIG problem. When I need to dodge such other road users, or need get someplace on time, irrespective of road conditions, my preference is for FWD for my DAILY DRIVER ... simple as that. Experience over 43 years of driving vehicles and riding powered two wheelers (and surviving) has taught me that.

Problem is, sooo many drivers now have cars which do the driving for them so they are lulled into a false sense of security. Little realising that the only really important safety device is the quality of the nut holding the steering wheel... Indeed, I also suspect that some have the mindset, "My car is safer than yours so don't need to drive so carefully as you" .... any idea what I'm on about here? Human nature being what it is .... So that when they REALLY need to actually participate behind the wheel, they are found wanting ..... Hey, it's BMW for crissakes, this should not be happening! My evidence? The finest available; that of my own ears and eyes on numerous occasions.

crisp's point about drivers' mechanical awareness is a good one and one I've made on this BBS before. When I asked a group of colleagues if they knew what drive arrangement their cars were, RWD, FWD or what have you, some were clueless to answer. "I dunno, I just get in and drive it". These are the people we all share the roads with.

You mention the rear end stepping out with RWD. That is the lesser of several problems for some drivers. Despite ALL modern technological aids, unless the front wheels on a RearWD car are in the straight ahead position, the rear wheels under power are trying to FORCE those front wheels to go straight ahead irrespective of the direction they are pointing. In certain conditions, the less experienced can easily be caught out by this resulting in the sudden loss of the front end and thus ability to steer. With FrontWD, the power is usually being directed in the steering direction thus the tendency for front end breakaway is reduced considerably.

In good driving conditions there is rarely a problem be it RWD or FWD. It's during adverse driving conditions, particularly poor road surfaces that problems arise.

Any road up, that's how I see things ...

[Edited by MGJohn - 2/16/2003 10:12:28 PM]

dosenöffner

LMAO at Chrisp.

My car is LWD (Left Wheel Drive).

Saving for a LFRRWD.

Blitz_Boy

LOL! That is so true.

GaryC

I appreciate your points and respect (if still not uderstand) your preference, but you are incorrect with the above. A FWD car will under far far easier and sooner than a RWD car. The fact that the steered wheels are also the driven wheels will lead to a far easier breaking of traction, which is the only thing that will cause understeer. Just look at any video of a track day, the FWD cars always understeer far far more - they are designed that way. RWD will not force cars to go straight on regardless, quite the reverse. If you take a powerful RWD car, stationary, apply full lock, nail the throttle and dump the clutch the car will turn in the direction of the wheels until the rear wheels break traction and the car oversteers. Under no circumstances will the car go straight on. Do the same thing in a FWD car and the wheels will light up and the car will 'snake' possibly straight on, possibly the opposite way.

Once the car is on the go, and especially under braking, it matters not whether it is RWD/FWD/AWD as under braking it is a no-wheel-drive!

That being said, a FWD will still understeer more as with any degree of throttle (especilly exiting a corner) the driven wheels will try and break traction and grip and will cause the car to understeer.


I can understand your point with older RWD cars, and certainly with pre-FWD, RWD WHERE a liability as they had no LSD, no traction control, live axles, etc etc. But with modern cars, and especially the premium brands, RWD cars come with an array of modern technology to erradicate the old (and dangerous) characteristics of RWD. I remember driving old Mercs/BMWs and even old Cortinas that were a genuine liability on wet and icy road, but those days are well gone.

You aught to try a modern RWD car, you might be pleasantly surprised and regain a greater love of motoring everyday rather on just 'special occaisions'

MGJohn

>> You aught to try a modern RWD car, you might be pleasantly surprised and regain a greater love of motoring everyday rather on just 'special occaisions' <<

You are almost certainly right, but, I repeat, I have no problem with RWD. My preference is for FWD for my DAILY DRIVER for reasons already given.

I now struggle to get great pleasure from driving the daily grind. I'm about to take the old MG turbo up to see relatives in London. I'll leave late, very late, so that the roads will be relatively light of traffic. Thirty years ago when also doing that same journey many times, I'd not see ANY vehicle between Gloucester and well the London side of Oxford. Now you can get long queues of vehicles on the roads or motorway at 2 a.m. The wonderful conditions I once experienced years ago are gone forever I fear. I still enjoy driving, but, as I said, the best days are gone forever. Wiser youngsters of today don't know theyze born ....

Safety Fast and Happy MotorinG ..... whatever you drive ..

chrisp

Funny thing is you talk to a RWD owner and you normally get two conflicting posts depending on what point they want to make either :

1) RWD is better becuase wheels that are driven are not being steer.

2) RWD is great for getting the back end out i.e. the car is in a slide and technically out of control
So which is it ??????????


1) Safe and predictable handling

2) Out of control


??????????

GaryC

Both THATS the beauty of it. Unless you are foolish behind the wheel or have no real driving skill, there is no advantage to FWD apart from cost and packaging.

Mister2

GaryC

fast bloke

Where can I get one of them?

MGJohn

GaryC WROTE:

>> there is no advantage to FWD apart from cost and packaging <<

I can think of at least one other Sir! You dont have a dirty great transmission tunnel housing the prop-shaft/diff assy. buzzing away thus occupying precious cabin space ......

Oh, there's another ... no, done that one already ....

AND another thing. BMWs are as common as muck round my way. Unlike some lesser cars I could mention ..... Thus, I don't want to drive a mere Bavarian Sierra !! That's not accurate .... RHDrive versions are made in Seth Afrika or N.America, so nowhere near Munching wossname ... or have I got that wrong too ...

Just back from an overnight trip up "the smoke" .... BMWs, Mercs ubiquitous there as well as being everywhere too ... ........ everybody has one it appears .... Glad I've chosen a more exclusive marque .....

Safety Fast Happy MotorinG .....

MGJohn

Nice one Mister2: Like it! Natalie looks a bit tasty despite her poor choice of wheels ...

"BMW: FULL ENTITLEMENT, KEEP OUT OF THE WAY. IN A RUSH. MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU, RICHER THAN YOU ....."

Regarding the latter comment, doubtfully "richer than you". BIGGER debt than you more like if recent credit studies and results are accurate ..

What does BMW stand for Dad? Bavarian Motoren Wossname ....?

Nah Son; Big Money Worries if only half the stories my work colleagues tell me are true ....... DOH! ..

GaryC

Thats 'packaging' and most FWD still have the tunnel for cabling/exhaust/etc

Oh, there's another ... no, done that one already ....

Great arguement! a real reason not to buy one
Yes, UK BMWs are made in Germany excpet the X5 and some Z3s which come from the States. No SA BMW comes (officially) to the UK

If thats what you think. Proton and Kia are other 'exclusive' makes you could look at Ever thought that cars sell well because they are good and other cars don't sell because they're not so good?? (until you lop 25% of the price to bribe customers to buy )

Try comparing BMW/Merc/Audi residual values £20k MG, £20k BMW ....which do YOU think will lose the most over 3 years?

dosenöffner

I said it was a joke but now I've changed my mind after driving to Huntigdon today.

BMW drivers are ar$eholes. No fewer than 9 incidents (seperate cars) involving BMWs being inconsiderate to other drivers.

Only one driver worse today. Peugeot 306's. Over thirty and that was just between two different ones.

When will people learn?

Is the two second rule really that hard to work out in heavy traffic?

MGJohn

High RESIDUALS ....

Silly me ... there was I thinking that "High Residuals" was UK Motor-trade-speak for making us Brits pay well over the odds for our motoring in the first place ...... silly me .... what do I know ...

What's a "mug punter" Dad? Shaddup Son and finish your homework ...

Funny ol' game ... people and their cars ...

MGJohn

Dozing Offen ...

On the news today ..

More severe penalties for drivers falling asleep behind the wheel, and at last, mobile phone use by drivers is subject to more severe penalties. LONG OVERDUE!

In 40+ years of driving, I've only been in real danger as a result of speeding vehicles on about three occasions. Since their use became commonplace, that is during the past few years, I've lost count of the times I HAVE been in danger as a result of mobile phone use whilst drivers are on the move. I speak as both as driver AND pedestrian!

Reminds me of the colleague who told me he's a much better driver when he's got a few pints inside him ......

These are the people we share the roads with .... so keep 'em peeled!