Anyone ever detoxed?
26 February 2003, 08:16 PM
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Modern Western medicine is based on the ideal that you would prove the efficacy of your treatments where possible by means of double blind randomised controlled trials with a smattering of biological plausibility.
It is amazing how quickly the hocus pocus is abandoned in a life and death situation and the crap gets sliced through. OMG I'm sounding like a surgeon
If you have a heart attack or cancer, you want me to be able to give you the most evidence based treatments possible based on data of thousands of person years. You might not make it anyway, but at least we will have done the best that we can offer, rather than offering to tickle your toes with reflexology, feed you with herbs, give you a healing ceromony or whatever. If you have a grim prognosis, then fine do whatever makes you feel good. If not and there is data available on an evidence based treatment and the risk:benefit looks good go for it.
Yes I am obviously an arrogant Western doctor, but frankly I don't have time to massage people's sensibilities about quack treatments that don't have any scientific basis. Nor do I have any interest whatsoever in trying to convince earth mothers that they should have their children immunised against fatal infectious diseases because they are too taken in by pseudoscientific crap in the media. The reason being is that these people think in a different way and you rarely get through to them.
I give my advice dutifully, accurately and as up to date and as thoroughly as I can, if people want to ignore it then fine. At the end of the day I and others worked our butts off to get a licence to practice medicine, if someone else thinks they can do it better then let them do the same and then present convincing arguments as to why their treatments should work. Let their materials, methods and results be scrutinised in the same way that an evil pharmaceutical company would have to do. At the end of the day it is a profession with entrance requirements determined by statute. Yes, there are bad apples, but public confidence in doctors in surveys is higher than in any other profession, so we mustn't get it too wrong. That is not a reason to be complacent, constantly question and audit what we do of course!
Alternative medicine is largely under-regulated, and their products are not subject to anything like the same controls as conventional pharmaceuticals. The scientific evidence is frankly laughable for most of it. There are benefits from the extended amount of time that alternative practioners can provide (would you like to pay the taxes so you can have hour long sessions with you GP?), but otherwise the only evidence I have seen for alternative medicine is for acupuncture, which has a biological plausibility mechanism to it based on the release of endorphins which block pain pathways, and also St John's Wort for mild anxiety and depression, although that has been questioned again. In addition the services of a chiropractor and osteopath are also evidence based in some situations, although their diagnoses and ideas on mechanisms are sometimes not supported by conventional medicine. For example, a patient can have a normal ultra high resolution MRI scan which shows that there are no disc prolapses, but a practitioner can assert by merely feeling with their fingers that this is not the case.
In some cases, alternative medicine is dangerous. I have had several patients asking for thyroxine because their alternative practitioner has said that they needed it. These patients have been very upset when I have declined to put my name to a prescription for thyroxine on the say so of someone without a full understanding of the implications or any biochemical evidence of deficiency. In fact, every time I do the thyroid function tests and they have so far come back normal. The patient usually breathes a sigh of relief if they are sensible and see the result in black and white in front of them.
[Edited by john banks - 2/26/2003 8:26:27 PM]
It is amazing how quickly the hocus pocus is abandoned in a life and death situation and the crap gets sliced through. OMG I'm sounding like a surgeon
If you have a heart attack or cancer, you want me to be able to give you the most evidence based treatments possible based on data of thousands of person years. You might not make it anyway, but at least we will have done the best that we can offer, rather than offering to tickle your toes with reflexology, feed you with herbs, give you a healing ceromony or whatever. If you have a grim prognosis, then fine do whatever makes you feel good. If not and there is data available on an evidence based treatment and the risk:benefit looks good go for it.
Yes I am obviously an arrogant Western doctor, but frankly I don't have time to massage people's sensibilities about quack treatments that don't have any scientific basis. Nor do I have any interest whatsoever in trying to convince earth mothers that they should have their children immunised against fatal infectious diseases because they are too taken in by pseudoscientific crap in the media. The reason being is that these people think in a different way and you rarely get through to them.
I give my advice dutifully, accurately and as up to date and as thoroughly as I can, if people want to ignore it then fine. At the end of the day I and others worked our butts off to get a licence to practice medicine, if someone else thinks they can do it better then let them do the same and then present convincing arguments as to why their treatments should work. Let their materials, methods and results be scrutinised in the same way that an evil pharmaceutical company would have to do. At the end of the day it is a profession with entrance requirements determined by statute. Yes, there are bad apples, but public confidence in doctors in surveys is higher than in any other profession, so we mustn't get it too wrong. That is not a reason to be complacent, constantly question and audit what we do of course!
Alternative medicine is largely under-regulated, and their products are not subject to anything like the same controls as conventional pharmaceuticals. The scientific evidence is frankly laughable for most of it. There are benefits from the extended amount of time that alternative practioners can provide (would you like to pay the taxes so you can have hour long sessions with you GP?), but otherwise the only evidence I have seen for alternative medicine is for acupuncture, which has a biological plausibility mechanism to it based on the release of endorphins which block pain pathways, and also St John's Wort for mild anxiety and depression, although that has been questioned again. In addition the services of a chiropractor and osteopath are also evidence based in some situations, although their diagnoses and ideas on mechanisms are sometimes not supported by conventional medicine. For example, a patient can have a normal ultra high resolution MRI scan which shows that there are no disc prolapses, but a practitioner can assert by merely feeling with their fingers that this is not the case.
In some cases, alternative medicine is dangerous. I have had several patients asking for thyroxine because their alternative practitioner has said that they needed it. These patients have been very upset when I have declined to put my name to a prescription for thyroxine on the say so of someone without a full understanding of the implications or any biochemical evidence of deficiency. In fact, every time I do the thyroid function tests and they have so far come back normal. The patient usually breathes a sigh of relief if they are sensible and see the result in black and white in front of them.
[Edited by john banks - 2/26/2003 8:26:27 PM]
26 February 2003, 08:34 PM
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John
Good points
But what about the other side of the coin... The drug side effect problems. The way a lot of Doctors seem to just dish out drugs.
I know at the end of the day , Eastern medicine doesnt help a crash victim, mother with a difficult birth etc...
there is a lot of $$$$ in quack jungle cures etc...but some of them cannot be dismissed.
[Edited by Luke - 2/26/2003 8:37:26 PM]
[Edited by Luke - 2/26/2003 8:42:43 PM]
Good points
But what about the other side of the coin... The drug side effect problems. The way a lot of Doctors seem to just dish out drugs.
I know at the end of the day , Eastern medicine doesnt help a crash victim, mother with a difficult birth etc...
there is a lot of $$$$ in quack jungle cures etc...but some of them cannot be dismissed.
[Edited by Luke - 2/26/2003 8:37:26 PM]
[Edited by Luke - 2/26/2003 8:42:43 PM]
26 February 2003, 08:45 PM
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Let them produce the evidence...
Re side effects, any prescriber should only be prescribing if the risk:benefit ratio appears to be favourable based on the best info available.
A lot of "jungle" cures don't have the same sort of side effects... that is because they don't do anything.
A lot claim to be totally side effect free and always work. You just know this can't be the case.
Any substance that favourably affects a biological process with any potency is very unlikely not to cause side effects. You can get pretty good with some very clean drugs which are very receptor specific. Paracetamol is as close as I would suggest, only in overdose does it really give a problem. Some patients get massive side effects with placebos, and some claim they have had side effects from that new drug I've given them, and then find they've got muddled with it and the whole packet is sitting there unopened. The suggestibility and placebo effect is absolutely incredible. Of course a good proportion of the frequent attenders have a psychological basis to their symptoms which they are not ready to work on.
The average person sees me four times a year. However, some who I would consider have nothing wrong with them see me 20 times as often. A lot of Scoobynetters because they are young and male, and probably gainfully employed probably see their doc about once every four years.
Some seriously come down for a chat it seems. Sometimes a patient walks in and you ask them how they are, it starts with terrible and then literally (I timed a few) they just talk without stopping for up to 14 minutes (that is my record). Meantime I have not said a word after that sentence. It is amazing the subjects that get covered, but they feel better for it. Maybe no one else will listen to them as they have poor social skills and never think beyond themselves to enquire about others? And they wonder why people don't want to talk to them. Sponges, they drain us as well, but they think we are paid for it
The big users, as usual are the invariably the ones who don't pay for it. And don't get me started on the benefit/disabled badges/insurance fraudsters 
Sorry I am drifting, but I feel better for it 
Re side effects, any prescriber should only be prescribing if the risk:benefit ratio appears to be favourable based on the best info available.
A lot of "jungle" cures don't have the same sort of side effects... that is because they don't do anything.
A lot claim to be totally side effect free and always work. You just know this can't be the case.
Any substance that favourably affects a biological process with any potency is very unlikely not to cause side effects. You can get pretty good with some very clean drugs which are very receptor specific. Paracetamol is as close as I would suggest, only in overdose does it really give a problem. Some patients get massive side effects with placebos, and some claim they have had side effects from that new drug I've given them, and then find they've got muddled with it and the whole packet is sitting there unopened. The suggestibility and placebo effect is absolutely incredible. Of course a good proportion of the frequent attenders have a psychological basis to their symptoms which they are not ready to work on.
The average person sees me four times a year. However, some who I would consider have nothing wrong with them see me 20 times as often. A lot of Scoobynetters because they are young and male, and probably gainfully employed probably see their doc about once every four years.
Some seriously come down for a chat it seems. Sometimes a patient walks in and you ask them how they are, it starts with terrible and then literally (I timed a few) they just talk without stopping for up to 14 minutes (that is my record). Meantime I have not said a word after that sentence. It is amazing the subjects that get covered, but they feel better for it. Maybe no one else will listen to them as they have poor social skills and never think beyond themselves to enquire about others? And they wonder why people don't want to talk to them. Sponges, they drain us as well, but they think we are paid for it
The big users, as usual are the invariably the ones who don't pay for it. And don't get me started on the benefit/disabled badges/insurance fraudsters Sorry I am drifting, but I feel better for it
26 February 2003, 09:05 PM
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LOL @ Katana. I thought the pills I got were going to make me make J Holmes look small. So much for herbs and creams....
Serious note. I fully agree with John. Alot of the so called Alternative solutions IMO are utter rubbish. The couple I believe in is Acupuncture - My Dad has this done for Sinus and stress. He says it makes a lot of differance and the Massage thing, not sure of the name. We have a family friend who goes and has various bits of the body massaged, she feels totaly different after each session.
Personnaly I think the Detox is damn daft and dangerous. It is not something I ever want to do. I subscribe to the heathy diet and excercise route.
Astraboy is bang on with statement about the gym. M8 used to go. If he had been on the P!ss the night before he couldn't do anywhere near his normal training routine.
I thought the pills I got were going to make me make J Holmes look small. So much for herbs and creams....Serious note. I fully agree with John. Alot of the so called Alternative solutions IMO are utter rubbish. The couple I believe in is Acupuncture - My Dad has this done for Sinus and stress. He says it makes a lot of differance and the Massage thing, not sure of the name. We have a family friend who goes and has various bits of the body massaged, she feels totaly different after each session.
Personnaly I think the Detox is damn daft and dangerous. It is not something I ever want to do. I subscribe to the heathy diet and excercise route.
Astraboy is bang on with statement about the gym. M8 used to go. If he had been on the P!ss the night before he couldn't do anywhere near his normal training routine.
26 February 2003, 09:57 PM
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Svabhaavoparamavaada, I gave up once I read this on their website
Never heard of it before, a look at the website suggests it is not going to change my life or practice
Never heard of it before, a look at the website suggests it is not going to change my life or practice
26 February 2003, 10:40 PM
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Does oldest mean best? Rarely in a scientific field IMHO. Thankfully medicine is moving on from its rather dodgy past!
[Edited by john banks - 2/26/2003 10:41:00 PM]
[Edited by john banks - 2/26/2003 10:41:00 PM]
27 February 2003, 09:43 AM
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John
Hold on hold on.
I'm not taking any medicines, tablets, supplements or anything at all that doesn't come off the shelves at waitrose.
So how can that be bad for me?
It's a well-balanced high carb. high protein low fat low sugar low salt diet.
Breakfast drink
Live yoghurt, skimmed milk, oats, almonds, brazil nuts, apricots + a banana
Lunch drink
Repeat breakfast
Dinner
Avocado with 1 tspn of vinaigrette
Stir fry to include Asparagus, sweet corn, sugar snap peas, asparagus, green peppers, red peppers, bean sprouts + 3 tbl spoons of brown rice.
Followed by a bowl of fruit to include cherries (black if possible)blueberries, strawberries and raspberries.
It recommends avoiding drinking with your meal but you need to drink 4 glasses of water between breakfast and lunch then another 4 between lunch and dinner then a further 3 after dinner.
You should put a slice of orange in the water but not eat it.
It is recommended that you follow this plan for 5 days.
By three o'clock on the first day I had a headache and felt below par.
Day two gave me all the symptoms of flue.
Day three I still had the headache but other than that no acute symptoms
Day four (today) I feel good, no headache
As John mentioned above I'm sure there is a large psychosomatic element to this sort of process but I'm convinced my sense of small and taste are much more acute than normal and I feel much brighter and more alert.
John could you help me to understand your concerns?
I'm not questioning your professional opinion, just maybe missing the point.
In layman’s terms why have I felt this ill and having come through the other side has there been a benefit to what I've done?
r
Hold on hold on.
I'm not taking any medicines, tablets, supplements or anything at all that doesn't come off the shelves at waitrose.
So how can that be bad for me?
It's a well-balanced high carb. high protein low fat low sugar low salt diet.
Breakfast drink
Live yoghurt, skimmed milk, oats, almonds, brazil nuts, apricots + a banana
Lunch drink
Repeat breakfast
Dinner
Avocado with 1 tspn of vinaigrette
Stir fry to include Asparagus, sweet corn, sugar snap peas, asparagus, green peppers, red peppers, bean sprouts + 3 tbl spoons of brown rice.
Followed by a bowl of fruit to include cherries (black if possible)blueberries, strawberries and raspberries.
It recommends avoiding drinking with your meal but you need to drink 4 glasses of water between breakfast and lunch then another 4 between lunch and dinner then a further 3 after dinner.
You should put a slice of orange in the water but not eat it.
It is recommended that you follow this plan for 5 days.
By three o'clock on the first day I had a headache and felt below par.
Day two gave me all the symptoms of flue.
Day three I still had the headache but other than that no acute symptoms
Day four (today) I feel good, no headache
As John mentioned above I'm sure there is a large psychosomatic element to this sort of process but I'm convinced my sense of small and taste are much more acute than normal and I feel much brighter and more alert.
John could you help me to understand your concerns?
I'm not questioning your professional opinion, just maybe missing the point.
In layman’s terms why have I felt this ill and having come through the other side has there been a benefit to what I've done?
r
27 February 2003, 10:56 AM
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Would withdrawal from say....caffiene also produce minor side effects such as these?
I take conventional medicine at the moment, I am asthmatic, I have to, but I am also looking into homeopathy to work alongside the conventional medicines....if it works....great....if not....I continue with my usual stuff.
I take conventional medicine at the moment, I am asthmatic, I have to, but I am also looking into homeopathy to work alongside the conventional medicines....if it works....great....if not....I continue with my usual stuff.
27 February 2003, 12:47 PM
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Well you've only just detailed now what you mean... so why is it called a detox - why not "permanent switch to a healthy lifestyle". Can't see what you are "detox"ing from.
Unaccustomed sudden intake of fibre tends to upset the bowels
Homeopathy for asthma... a lot of asthmatics seem in denial about their condition ... of course no one likes to have a live diagnosis. I spend ages trying to convince someone after their last hospital admission or excessive numbers of courses of oral steroids that there is good evidence that control is far better if you follow the British Thoracic Society's evidence based guidelines on asthma control rather than stop their preventative steroids at the drop of a hat when they are off to try the next quack herbal/homeopathic remedy. It often does not occur that long term damage can result to lung function from undertreating asthma.
Guess who reluctantly gets to write excessive numbers of scripts for prednisolone tablets when the peak flow is half of predicted because of non-compliance with steroid inhalers Then I get told off for prescribing toxic drugs [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
In my experience people with severe asthma that mess about with asthma treatment (and by this I arrogantly mean not following evidence based western medicine guidelines) end up getting rather painful arterial blood gases done or end up on ventilators.
Don't get me started on epileptics that stop all their drugs to go onto something homeopathic. Guess who ends up putting diazepam up their bottoms when it all goes pear shaped and they have a massive seizure that won't stop with tea tree oil rubbed into their navel Funny, diazapem works very quickly and obviously, shame about the homepathic remedies that simply don't.
Diabetics and people with heart disease - some also like to play with alternative therapies and stop their usual medication.
I have every sympathy with people with chronic diseases, but some don't help themselves by frankly messing about with things that don't work and suddenly withdraw life saving medication.
[Edited by john banks - 2/27/2003 12:53:57 PM]
Unaccustomed sudden intake of fibre tends to upset the bowels
Homeopathy for asthma... a lot of asthmatics seem in denial about their condition ... of course no one likes to have a live diagnosis. I spend ages trying to convince someone after their last hospital admission or excessive numbers of courses of oral steroids that there is good evidence that control is far better if you follow the British Thoracic Society's evidence based guidelines on asthma control
rather than stop their preventative steroids at the drop of a hat when they are off to try the next quack herbal/homeopathic remedy. It often does not occur that long term damage can result to lung function from undertreating asthma.Guess who reluctantly gets to write excessive numbers of scripts for prednisolone tablets when the peak flow is half of predicted because of non-compliance with steroid inhalers
Then I get told off for prescribing toxic drugs [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]In my experience people with severe asthma that mess about with asthma treatment (and by this I arrogantly mean not following evidence based western medicine guidelines) end up getting rather painful arterial blood gases done or end up on ventilators.
Don't get me started on epileptics that stop all their drugs to go onto something homeopathic. Guess who ends up putting diazepam up their bottoms when it all goes pear shaped and they have a massive seizure that won't stop with tea tree oil rubbed into their navel
Funny, diazapem works very quickly and obviously, shame about the homepathic remedies that simply don't.Diabetics and people with heart disease - some also like to play with alternative therapies and stop their usual medication.
I have every sympathy with people with chronic diseases, but some don't help themselves by frankly messing about with things that don't work and suddenly withdraw life saving medication.
[Edited by john banks - 2/27/2003 12:53:57 PM]
27 February 2003, 02:16 PM
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Cool Luke, I've heard about the benefits of excessive vitamin C intake...
Wasn't it from a guy in America who died from liver and kidney failure a couple of years back?
Wasn't it from a guy in America who died from liver and kidney failure a couple of years back?
27 February 2003, 02:37 PM
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John, don't get me wrong!!! I mean to use homeopathy alongside my normal treatment not instead of!!!!
I have managed to go down from using 5 inhalers to 3 over the last 5 years which has been an achievement IMHO....
You are definitely right about the denial bit, I didn't want to be asthmatic and burying my head in the sand caused me more hospital admissions and steriod courses than would have been otherwise necessary!!!
Over in Australia they have made Becloforte obselete which I am not happy about, so my mum is hopefully going to bring stocks of the stuff from my GP off my repeat prescription whilst I find an alternative....it won't be Flixotide either as I find that not as effective.
They have this combination called Seretide through an accuhaler, which I know is Flixotide and Serevent in one. Not been impressed with it so far. My peak flow has dropped over the last week or two since using it.
I have managed to go down from using 5 inhalers to 3 over the last 5 years which has been an achievement IMHO....
You are definitely right about the denial bit, I didn't want to be asthmatic and burying my head in the sand caused me more hospital admissions and steriod courses than would have been otherwise necessary!!!
Over in Australia they have made Becloforte obselete which I am not happy about, so my mum is hopefully going to bring stocks of the stuff from my GP off my repeat prescription whilst I find an alternative....it won't be Flixotide either as I find that not as effective.
They have this combination called Seretide through an accuhaler, which I know is Flixotide and Serevent in one. Not been impressed with it so far. My peak flow has dropped over the last week or two since using it.
27 February 2003, 03:28 PM
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Sorry Michelle, I misunderstood - thought you said if homeopathy didn't work you would continue your usual stuff, in other words if it did you wouldn't, but then the proof of the homeopathic pudding would be in the eating (peak flows). Too many metaphors, wonder what a homeopathic pudding would taste like ?
?
28 February 2003, 03:32 AM
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I would hazard a guess that it would taste of nothing. 
I have had nothing to give me any positivity towards using homeopathy, my peak flow has improved over the last few years, but then, my lifestyle has changed also.
I have had nothing to give me any positivity towards using homeopathy, my peak flow has improved over the last few years, but then, my lifestyle has changed also.
28 February 2003, 08:31 AM
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I am at my desk eating a large bacon and egg sandwich.
The egg is dripping down my chin.
The bacon is crispy
The bread is very white
There are lashings of ketchup in it.
I FEEL FANTASTIC.
The egg is dripping down my chin.
The bacon is crispy
The bread is very white
There are lashings of ketchup in it.
I FEEL FANTASTIC.
28 February 2003, 09:20 AM
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Saxo, how can you be jealous when you're only yards away from the best fattening snack in the country.
The chippey down on the Grassmarket sells deep fried haggis.
Sounds rough I know but once you've had a few it's incredible.
Just acts as a huge spicy sponge for the fat.
delicious
The chippey down on the Grassmarket sells deep fried haggis.
Sounds rough I know but once you've had a few it's incredible.
Just acts as a huge spicy sponge for the fat.
delicious
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