Get your English lessons here
26 February 2003, 11:41 AM
#121
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Hi,
I do think it is a shame that a concensus (not necessarily on this BBS) seems to be emerging that proper written presentation isn't important any more.
I work for a French Bank, and am often horrified that many of the documents produced by native English speakers are frequently of very poor quality, and that this is often commented on by people for whom English is their second (or even third!) language.
Believe it or not, one of the most popular programmes on French TV is a spelling competition - they really do take it that seriously!. This is because they consider their language to be an intrinsic part of their national identity, and have a panel of academics that chooses which words are officially adopted into the language.
In sharp contrast to this, some Government departments have officially abolised apostrophies as a consequence of the inability of their employees to use them correctly!.
Perhaps good manners and courtesy will shortly go the same way, i.e. cease to be expected. Judging by the sometimes outrageous behaviour of my fellow commuters, this trend is already well established. You can expect respect for the property of others and the rule of law to follow shortly (as if it hasn't already!
)
In my opinion, making an effort to ensure that written documents are free of gramatical errors is essential if the recipients are not to be distracted from the point you are making by all of the howlers. Such a document would predispose me to view it as a sloppy piece of work, and I would be inclined to examine it in a more critical frame of mind.
It is as important to how people perceive and react to your ideas and opinions as it would be to ensure that you turn up to a meeting with, say, A prospective business customer 'looking the part'.
The ability to communicate concepts with economy and elegance should, IMHO, remain a valued skill.
Having said that, colloquialisms, spelling errors and slang are fine for non-critical stuff (like this BBS) though - Consequently, I haven't bothered to check my spelling and punctuation
Cheers,
Alex
Edit - OK, I lied.. incorrect captialisation and spelling mistake corrected!
[Edited by AlexM - 2/26/2003 11:47:50 AM]
I do think it is a shame that a concensus (not necessarily on this BBS) seems to be emerging that proper written presentation isn't important any more.
I work for a French Bank, and am often horrified that many of the documents produced by native English speakers are frequently of very poor quality, and that this is often commented on by people for whom English is their second (or even third!) language.
Believe it or not, one of the most popular programmes on French TV is a spelling competition - they really do take it that seriously!. This is because they consider their language to be an intrinsic part of their national identity, and have a panel of academics that chooses which words are officially adopted into the language.
In sharp contrast to this, some Government departments have officially abolised apostrophies as a consequence of the inability of their employees to use them correctly!.
Perhaps good manners and courtesy will shortly go the same way, i.e. cease to be expected. Judging by the sometimes outrageous behaviour of my fellow commuters, this trend is already well established. You can expect respect for the property of others and the rule of law to follow shortly (as if it hasn't already!
)In my opinion, making an effort to ensure that written documents are free of gramatical errors is essential if the recipients are not to be distracted from the point you are making by all of the howlers. Such a document would predispose me to view it as a sloppy piece of work, and I would be inclined to examine it in a more critical frame of mind.
It is as important to how people perceive and react to your ideas and opinions as it would be to ensure that you turn up to a meeting with, say, A prospective business customer 'looking the part'.
The ability to communicate concepts with economy and elegance should, IMHO, remain a valued skill.
Having said that, colloquialisms, spelling errors and slang are fine for non-critical stuff (like this BBS) though - Consequently, I haven't bothered to check my spelling and punctuation
Cheers,
Alex
Edit - OK, I lied.. incorrect captialisation and spelling mistake corrected!
[Edited by AlexM - 2/26/2003 11:47:50 AM]
26 February 2003, 12:01 PM
#122
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Alex, nice one. Although the plural of apostrophe is apostrophes, grammatical has two ms, you don't need a capital A before prospective, and if you use an exclamation mark at the end of a sentence, you don't need an additional full stop. Not bad apart from that!
[Edited by TelBoy - 2/26/2003 12:05:22 PM]
[Edited by TelBoy - 2/26/2003 12:05:22 PM]
26 February 2003, 12:10 PM
#128
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Yeah, I'm firmly on the side of those who think that proper spelling and grammar is important. When I see obvious mistakes in correspondence, printed material etc it immediately lowers my opinion of the company that sent it. I go to some lengths to get our admin people to follow a 'Corporate Style' when preparing correspondence. This can be harder that you might imagine:
- I'd like you to set out the address like this, please.
- Oh, I do it like that.
- But I'd like you to do it like this.
- I've always done it like that though...
- I see. I'd still like you to do it like this.
and so on.
I mean, if you were having your house painted and some guy slapped on a bit of emulsion that roughly covered most of the walls, and then went, "well it gets the idea across, doesn't it? It's covered up most of the old stuff, yeah?" You wouldn't accept that.
Maybe the people who believe in there being a right way to do things are a minority now...
Charlie (pass my pipe and slippers).
- I'd like you to set out the address like this, please.
- Oh, I do it like that.
- But I'd like you to do it like this.
- I've always done it like that though...
- I see. I'd still like you to do it like this.
and so on.
I mean, if you were having your house painted and some guy slapped on a bit of emulsion that roughly covered most of the walls, and then went, "well it gets the idea across, doesn't it? It's covered up most of the old stuff, yeah?" You wouldn't accept that.
Maybe the people who believe in there being a right way to do things are a minority now...
Charlie (pass my pipe and slippers).
26 February 2003, 12:10 PM
#129
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And whilst we're at it, where does this notion that you cannot begin a sentence with "and" come from? Are we saying that it applies to any conjunction, or what?
26 February 2003, 12:14 PM
#130
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It was good enough for Bill Shakespeare:
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death.
Out! Out! Brief candle. Life’s but a walking shadow,
A poor player, who struts and frets his hour upon the Stage
And then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." -- Macbeth
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death.
Out! Out! Brief candle. Life’s but a walking shadow,
A poor player, who struts and frets his hour upon the Stage
And then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." -- Macbeth
26 February 2003, 12:20 PM
#133
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Well, that’s been a gripping read! I have actually enjoyed reading it, which must indicate a certain sadness.
I agree with some of the posters (or is that postees?) that correct use of the English language is important in certain circumstances, it’s not essential for places such as a car bbs.
General standards are declining, that cannot be denied, but where do you draw the line and how do you decide what needs to be tackled first? Do you attempt to cure the symptom or the cause? Or is it a case of both simultaneously?
As for the correction of other people’s grammar, I think that it’s OK if you know the person but could be construed as rude by people you don’t know. It also comes down to the manner in which the correction is carried out. To be honest I find some of the pedants to have a particularly heavy handed approach to the correction of the who do not meet their high standards.
Go on then, pick my poor spelling and grammar to pieces, I don’t particularly care, after all it is just a thread on a bulletin board.
I agree with some of the posters (or is that postees?) that correct use of the English language is important in certain circumstances, it’s not essential for places such as a car bbs.
General standards are declining, that cannot be denied, but where do you draw the line and how do you decide what needs to be tackled first? Do you attempt to cure the symptom or the cause? Or is it a case of both simultaneously?
As for the correction of other people’s grammar, I think that it’s OK if you know the person but could be construed as rude by people you don’t know. It also comes down to the manner in which the correction is carried out. To be honest I find some of the pedants to have a particularly heavy handed approach to the correction of the who do not meet their high standards.
Go on then, pick my poor spelling and grammar to pieces, I don’t particularly care, after all it is just a thread on a bulletin board.
26 February 2003, 12:23 PM
#136
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Tel - that's accepted English practice. I was taught that whilst still at school.
Never start a sentence with "and" and never begin a paragraph or letter with "I".
Never start a sentence with "and" and never begin a paragraph or letter with "I".
26 February 2003, 12:27 PM
#137
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Again, it's to deal with the rhythm. Shakespeare also used "y'all" in King Lear...so what? There is a lot of slang there. Let's not forget the writings of Geoffrey Chaucer now! Or shall we bring him into the mix to demonstrate how verbal English can be written?
Let's not forget, however, that this BBS is read by a multitude of people, both English speakers and not. It's hard enough learning a new language as it is, let alone if some of the examples that you read are hideous examples of written English.
i meen, i can right like this with the best (or wurst) of 'um, but instantlee u form a diffrunt opinion of my intellekt.
Plus which, foreign readers whose English isn't that brilliant wouldn't have a clue what I'd just said and wouldn't be able to find the words in a dictionary.
[Edited by Mice_Elf - 2/26/2003 12:29:08 PM]
Let's not forget, however, that this BBS is read by a multitude of people, both English speakers and not. It's hard enough learning a new language as it is, let alone if some of the examples that you read are hideous examples of written English.
i meen, i can right like this with the best (or wurst) of 'um, but instantlee u form a diffrunt opinion of my intellekt.
Plus which, foreign readers whose English isn't that brilliant wouldn't have a clue what I'd just said and wouldn't be able to find the words in a dictionary.
[Edited by Mice_Elf - 2/26/2003 12:29:08 PM]
26 February 2003, 12:29 PM
#139
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http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/issue42.html
"One such myth is that a sentence cannot begin with a conjunction such as 'And', 'Because' or 'But'. Though most of the delegates accept John's explanation that such sentences are perfectly acceptable, there is still some reluctance. Ian, from a telecommunications company, explains that 'even now, listening to you saying we can start a sentence with 'And', I can hear my schoolteacher telling me not to. I just can't imagine myself starting a sentence with 'And'."
"One such myth is that a sentence cannot begin with a conjunction such as 'And', 'Because' or 'But'. Though most of the delegates accept John's explanation that such sentences are perfectly acceptable, there is still some reluctance. Ian, from a telecommunications company, explains that 'even now, listening to you saying we can start a sentence with 'And', I can hear my schoolteacher telling me not to. I just can't imagine myself starting a sentence with 'And'."
26 February 2003, 12:30 PM
#140
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Surely part of being a sentient, intelligent being is questioning what you've been taught?
I was taught to use -ise instead of -ize, but I now know that to be wrong. I also use 'connexion' and 'reflexion' despite being taught 'connection' and 'reflection'.
I was taught to use -ise instead of -ize, but I now know that to be wrong. I also use 'connexion' and 'reflexion' despite being taught 'connection' and 'reflection'.
26 February 2003, 12:31 PM
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There are grammar rules and then there is artistic use of language. Grammar rules are there to make it easier for people to understand how to use the language. If you are a master of the art (Like me ) you can do what you want. You are an artist, if you say you wanna
write
LikE
this cos yer like tryna say sumthin abaht the staite of the nayshun then that's ok. It's like that urinal in the tate modern, art innit? But you have to know the rules to break them. That's a fragment. Do not start a sentence with But. But do not finnish a sentence with But.
) you can do what you want. You are an artist, if you say you wannawrite
LikE
this cos yer like tryna say sumthin abaht the staite of the nayshun then that's ok. It's like that urinal in the tate modern, art innit? But you have to know the rules to break them. That's a fragment. Do not start a sentence with But. But do not finnish a sentence with But.
26 February 2003, 12:34 PM
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And i still won't capitalise my "i"s until the theory behind that particular "rule" is explained to me!! 
I mean, why not "Me", "Us", "Them" etc. Why just "I"? Non-sensical!!
I mean, why not "Me", "Us", "Them" etc. Why just "I"? Non-sensical!!
26 February 2003, 12:39 PM
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TK, but isn't that like the primary school instruction which stated you should never start a sentence with "because"? Which we all know now to be twaddle?
What's the deal with eliminating words such as "and"? There's no valid reason for doing so, surely?
What's the deal with eliminating words such as "and"? There's no valid reason for doing so, surely?
26 February 2003, 12:39 PM
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Carl, I use "connexion" too. That's a throwback to how it was originally spelt, apparently.
If grammar fails, it becomes nearly impossible to understand what people are saying. Just look at some of the posts Moses initially made on this BBS. (Sorry, Moses!) Entire paragraphs with nary a fullstop, comma, apostrophe or capitalised letter.
If grammar fails, it becomes nearly impossible to understand what people are saying. Just look at some of the posts Moses initially made on this BBS. (Sorry, Moses!
) Entire paragraphs with nary a fullstop, comma, apostrophe or capitalised letter.
26 February 2003, 12:42 PM
#148
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Yes, it's exactly like the 'rule' that one should not begin a sentence with 'because'. I thought it was ridiculous when I was at school and I've never adhered to it, (much to the disgust of successive English teachers).
26 February 2003, 12:44 PM
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Another "rule" I was taught, was never to use the word "nice" to describe anything as it's a "weak" word.
Must admit, even now, I find myself saying "Oh, that's nice", when what I really want to say is "Euuuwww!"
Must admit, even now, I find myself saying "Oh, that's nice", when what I really want to say is "Euuuwww!"
26 February 2003, 12:46 PM
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Carl, I use "connexion" too. That's a throwback to how it was originally spelt, apparently.
The number of times I write work-related documents and somebody 'corrects' my -xion 'typo'
Actually, the same happens with my -ize 'typos' too
