south-star

Some of you lot need to get real.
Labour promised to spend more on education and public services.In plain English that means tax rises.
You complain that they never said they'd put up taxes,.......of course they didn't,there politicians for gods sake.

If you dont like it,vote Tory at the next election.

Scooby_Loo

Katana,

Do you live with your parents? Don't have to answer if you dont want to.

Loo

bigsinky

yeah what is it about the south of england. my sister lives in a little village (stubbington in hampshire) and she has seen her council/poll/whatever tax go up, as well as water bills. "god's waiting room" she calls it because down the south seems to have an average age of about 90 odds. also pi$$es her off at the inordinate amount or Rover 75s that knock about her way as well!

cheers

big sinky

Gordo

Fek me -

Southstar said

"Some of you lot need to get real.
Labour promised to spend more on education and public services.In plain English that means tax rises.
You complain that they never said they'd put up taxes,.......of course they didn't,there politicians for gods sake.

If you dont like it,vote Tory at the next election. "

This irrational thinking really annoys me - so it's ok if Labour lied in their manifesto in respect of tax rises, we knew it was a lie therefore it's ok???? Nicely patronising, Southstar. You're very much in the camp of Blair walks on water no matter what he does, then?

good rational thinking, thank goodness we live in a democracy where the politicians are directly accountable for their actions. oh, hang on......

Labour always rise taxes using public services as an excuse, but rarely deliver better public services because of their increased spending. Blair was presenting himself as so right wing (or, at least, marginally left of centre) that the population were perhaps fooled into thinking that he understood this time, that labour had changed, that you don't need to spend more to deliver better services. If only they'd acknowledge that they need to get rid of all the daft unionised public sector mentality that's been around for years and focusing on delivering value rather than hosing cash at something before the problems are solved.

Our compadres on the continent have an almost comparable tax take to us but get much better services. The issue here is not, however, the level of tax Labour cheerfully extracts from our pockets (along with our urine). The issue is that they lied.

Rant over

G

Flyboy-F33

I am amazed that the general public seems to have ignored the 18% rise in council tax. When it was called 'poll tax' it almost caused a revolution! I guess we should just all roll-over and pay up! I'll certainly not be voting them back in next time.

south-star

This irrational thinking really annoys me - so it's ok if Labour lied in their manifesto in respect of tax rises, we knew it was a lie therefore it's ok????

Gordo....EXACTLTY where did they lie?

Gordo

south-star - "EXACTLTY where did they lie? "

Have you read the Labour manifesto? Just under the section on attempting to take credit for low interest rates and promising to try to keep them low (haha, interest rates are low because of the global economy, not because of Labout, and the Bank of England sets interest rates. ho hum).

2nd column at the bottom of page 10 - "We will not raise the basic or top rates of income tax in the next Parliament"

http://www.pixunlimited.co.uk/pdf/news/election/labourmanifesto1.pdf

They did it. Last year. Or have you missed the news that an extra 1% that's about to come off your wage? Sure, they called it national insurance, but it's not as NI always has a ceiling (which it should, there is a maximum state pension so there should be a maximum NI ceiling if the farce of NI is to continue). But this time there's no ceiling, i.e. a straight 1%. But they haven't increased income tax, oh noooo.

Anyone feel this slight of hand was honest? aha - that's be a LIE then.

G

Dave P

Whether or not they lied is one thing, the other is that they have increased taxation but there appear to be no improvements to public services. Therefore you ask what is the money being wasted on.

Don't reference the war because that is very recent history and has no bearing on the history of this Labour Party.

The biggest problem is there is no viable opposition. Charles Kenedy is a nobody and IDS is... well I rest my case.

Dave

paulr

We will not raise the basic or top rates of income tax in the next Parliament"

And they havent..its still 40% and 22%.In fact Labour lowered it from 23 to 22.

The thing with politicains is to read between the lines.Take NOTHING at face value.

PiNkEyE69

Nice, just got the council tax evaluation for the coming year through, just over £100 per month. Sonnavabeatch!
Here's hoping for the payrise When my apprasial/evaluation comes around.

south-star

Council tax is a rip off imo.A way for the govt to raise taxes and say...not us guv...

MooseRacer

All of you complaining about Council Tax rises - Council Tax is set by local government, not central. Remember that and actually turn out to vote in the next round of council elections.

carl

Mine came through today. Over £130 a month

ChrisB

Moose - Central government interfere with local council budgets though...

dsmith

"All of you complaining about Council Tax rises - Council Tax is set by local government, not central. Remember that and actually turn out to vote in the next round of council elections. "

I suggest very strongly you have a good hard look at the info your council sends you. Approx half their budget comes from central government. Money which has been consistently reduced in recent years - hence the need for council tax to rise to make up the shortfall. A large percentage of the rise is required by local councils - to keep topping up generous council worker pension schemes.

Of my 18% rise, from what I can make of the figures my Local Council will not have increased their actual spending my more than about 2%.

Deano

MooseRacer

It is a valid point re. central govt. funding, however this reduction applies across the politcal spectrum - not just the current 'thiefs'. I do however realise it is a nice excuse for a bit of Blair bashing.

I can obviously only comment on my own bill, but a large proportion of the increase is not related to any cuts in central funding.

And I can't believe people are complaing that Councils are having to make moves to bolster their pension funds. This is happening in both the private and public sectors - it is rather strange to suggest penalising local govt workers' pension plans (this is after all one of the benefits they receive in return for poor pay).


As a final aside - the money that central govt does or doesnt provide is never 'free' money in the first place, coming from the taxpayer.


I stand by my comments, turn out and vote in local elections - there are clear differences between the 2 main party's spending regardless of central funding.

Gordo

I'm astounded at the defences being put forward on behalf of both the lies told by central government and the justifications in terms of local council charges.

The central government manifesto issues are, unfortunately, not something that can ever be reasonably discussed because a) people have such deep-seated beliefs that they ignore the hard facts and b) people sadly just accept these issues as the way of the world (i.e. they all do it, so it becomes ok).

Local government, however, is something that is worth discussing, albeit there is little evidence of the wider public being particularly interested (again, a resigned acceptance unfortunately).

Facts:

- Council tax rates vary widely across the country (and even on different sides of the road in some areas council boundaries meet!)
- Changes in central government funding materially affect local collection requirements
- Central government is implicitly supporting Labour councils (using wealth sharing as a justification for doing this)
- Local councils are not truly accountable for their own results (local councillors are rarely the best people for the job, those truly in control of the central government purse have often been there for many years through different political environments)
- Too many councils are like badly run plcs with those in charge acting in the short term for their own goals rather than the benefits of the voting public (e.g. the current irrational maintenance of final salary pensions)
- Local government funding suffers due to differing individual circumstances (e.g. a concentration of old people) which belies the benefits of local tax collection and highlights the inconsistencies across the country

IMO the majority of local council services should be provided by commercial organisations away from political constraints. Taxes should only be collected centrally with funding provided to local authorities on a fair, equitable and transparent basis. Local councillors should be overseers and lobbyists but no more. Most of them do not have the skills, qualifications or experience to be in charge of what are in effect complex high budget organisations.

i.e. Time for a shake up of local government and for the soft 'pro democracy' types to back off and reflect on what's actually there rather than defending their utopian view of what they think is there. Again, would you be happy if your electricity bill went up 30% and it was already double what you friends in a neighbouring district pay? Course you wouldn't. Maybe it's time for a council watchdog?

Gordo

Fluffer

We are actually undertaxed in the UK- its pretty obvious judging by the state of our public services. There are two models we can follow- the Americans (don't even go there!) or the Dutch- their society is amongst the best in Europe in terms of quality of life and I'm afraid to say it's because they pay higher taxes.
You get what you pay for.

Gordo

Fluffer

I'm interested to understand the data behind your assertion. What makes you think the Dutch pay much higher taxes? Remember that comparing direct tax rates (i.e. income tax, NI) is not a true comparison as you have to take into account all of the indirect taxes as well.

The last time I saw any data the overall take per £ of income per capita was remarkably similar across the developed world. Whilst some of the Scandinavian countries, for example, have very high income tax (50-60%), they do not necessarily have the other taxes we pay (NI, VAT). Does anyone have any recent data on this?

Glib statements like "we have to pay more to get better services" are only partially true. The way that money is spent and the benefits to society also have to be taken into account. There has to be a finite limit to the amount it is sensible to spend. You cannot, for example, have the average lifespan increasing due to better healthcare without also increasing retirement age to compensate. Most people are happy to shout for more money to be poured into the NHS but, funnily enough, rarely shout about wanting to work longer.

Gordo

Fluffer

Partially true will do! At least something I said was right.

Glib statements are the mode round these parts judging from other posts.

Perhaps the overall burden is similar.

Nederland is a great country and I think the UK could learn a lot from it.

In any case I reckon we should all pay a lot more tax, after all how else will we afford to pay for our war.

[Edited by Fluffer - 3/27/2003 10:57:29 AM]

MooseRacer

Gordo you seem to be contradicting yourself?

You say that it is not right that there should be regional differnces in pricing for certain commodities.

You also say taxes should be collected centrally and then re-distributed.


Surely the 2 amount to the same thing?

I'm also not entirely convinced by your assertion that the differences in central funding are purely due to political bias towards Labour run councils either. You must remember that generally Labour hold councils that, by the nature of their population, require more Council funding.


As it happens I would be very much in favour of the privatisation of the provision of many local services.

Leslie

Gordo

Bit of a late reply, had other things on my mind.

I can understand how you are annoyed because your council tax is higher due to the cost of care of the elderly. You have a point that it is unfair that you have to pay more because of the numbers of elderly people in your area. I agree that the costs due to this sort of expense should be shared out all over the country, maybe with appropriate grants for those kinds of expenses.

I still think that your words to describe the elderly are patronising and unnecessary as well as the way others have referred to them. So what if they like Rovers? At the very least they are entitled to some respect instead of such a selfish attitude. Many of them risked their lives in WW2 so that you could be free to live your life democratically.

What would you suggest should be done about the elderly then Big Sinky, bearing in mind you might reach the age of 90+ plus yourself?

Les

Gordo

Moose Racer

No contradiction at all - if taxes are only collected centrally, then it is balanced as everyone then contributes per a transparent taxation system. i.e. they are collected as part of income tax rather than hidden elsewhere in the system.

I didn't say that differences in central funding were purely due to political bias, this is only part of it. Labour is actively favouring Labour councils rather than favouring poor areas (Labour don't have a monopoly on poor areas).

Bring back the poll tax - the only thing wrong with it last time was that it varied by area rather than being a fixed rate across the country!

(Leslie, I never mentioned Rovers, did I?)

G

Leslie

Gordo

No you didn't mention Rovers-that was Big Sinky, My apologies to you, I wrote the post badly.

Les

CavT

The assertation that we should pay more tax is frankly.... ludicrous! "New" Labour cannot even effectively spend the taxs that they collect now, what makes you think that they will do a better job with more?

Since Labour got into power, they have pretty much undermined everything that the Conservatives achieved, ok, not everyone is going to agree with me on that, but Labour inherited a stable economy, and they have frittered it away ever since.

A small example is the Millenium Dome.... £750Million was spent on that dead duck, and how much did the company that got it, pay the government for it? £130million. Hmmmm, someone got robbed.

Then we go onto other areas. Various Government agencys have had new computer systems installed at costs of between £20-£30million at a time, and hey, they don't work properly, or will be superceeded in a couple of years time!

Petrol tax has shot through the roof, and Labour bang on about how they scrapped the fuel tax escalator, but they only did that so they could raise the price further, until the people of this country finally decided to pipe up about it.... now petrol is erring on the wrong side of 80p again, and yes, war is a contributary factor (not that the Americans are paying much more for their fuel?!?!?!), but how quickly will it come down afterwards? What happened to Gordon Browns promise to ensure that the price didn't get out of control again?

The proposed expenditure for the NHS is already showing signs of being swallowed up, with nothing to show for it. More management, more wage demands are threatening to exhaust all that extra cash. And supposedly thats why we all pay more, to fund the NHS and education..... not convinced!

And why didn't the great unwashed get all worked up about the NI raise? Simple, because Gordon Brown isn't stupid. He announced it a full year before he intended to implement it, which gives people plenty of time to forget about it.

I pay over the odds to fuel my car, to keep it on the road, yet the money I pay, I don't see it going into the transport system.

Seeing as most bus companies (all?) are owned by private companies, a hell of a lot of the proposed money to go into transport will goto these companies. As has been stated in the press numerous times now, how the hell can the government expect to gain public support by charging a fortune to drive your car without a proper integrated transport service?

The fact of the matter is, they don't want us to stop driving our cars, its green-ecological bullsh1t just to appease the minority traffic bashing hippie tree huggers! All that fuel tax lost, road tax lost, vat on cars, vat on new registrations, vat on the parts, VAT ON SECOND HAND PARTS?!?!?!?!?!?! Christ, you are paying tax on an item that has already previously been taxed!?!?!?! I can't think of anything this government doesn't tax.

Oh yeah, and whilst I'm warmed up here, airport tax. September the 11th has had a tremendous impact on the airlines, many have gone under. What does the government do? Approves the Aviation Authority to increase Taxi charges for airplanes, which then get passed onto the customers, thus increasing the tax you have to pay. Just what the airline industry needs right now!!

The mentality that we should just 'chill and accept it', is some kind of defeatist Liberal Democrat sh1te frankly.

People say that IDS and the conservatives are no opposition, unfortunately, the Iraq conflict kinda robs the conservatives of any airtime, and seeing as IDS agrees with Tony Blair, theres not much political advantage to be had. But if people really really do think that things are better under Labour now than they were under the Tories, then you have no business moaning about tax rises.

On the note of Central Government don't have control over the council tax rises, this isn't true. Central Government have the authority to cap rises, and in fact they said that if councils raised above 10%, not only would they be dissapointed, but they would cap those councils.

Months later however, and the story is very much more different. All councils are raising above 10% and the goverment are doing the shrugging of shoulders saying 'nothing we can do'.

Some of you dissenters really ought to read up on some of the crap the government wastes OUR money on. Go pick up a copy of Private Eye and weep.

Labours catchphrase in their first election win was.... "Things can only get better"...... Thats another thing they lied about!