john banks

I am not using the car daily at present until the new gearbox goes in (plus a Lateral clutch).

Present plan is to stick to a (seriously uprated) gearbox friendly 450/400 on the new setup. Tony all I am doing is the engine, clutch, flywheel and gearbox - trying the rest of the drivetrain as it is. You don't hear of huge numbers of failures of other bits.

I've only gone bonkers on this engine since I knew I was going to get another. Spoon, what bit do you think will fail first and why? Obviously I kind of agree with you hence I am building another engine... but Harvey is running more on his uprated engine and the only thing different are the rods and pistons. My conrods are at lower loading than a standard STi revving 8250+ RPM. My pistons will be susceptible to excessive EGTs or detonation but I control both religiously. My present engine is still very sweet (apart from open loop idle but that is a control issue nothing to do with engine integrity) and it owes me nothing many times over. No matter how good your rods and pistons, if you get silly temperatures and detonation you'll break it. If your rods or pistons are tough enough you'll break the next weakest link. I would still rather run 400 BHP in a standard engine than I would 200 in a detting one.

Agree with you Adam about the bearing issues - we can try Motul oil, uprated oil pumps and ACL lead bearings to try and stop it - whether they work no one knows.

[Edited by john banks - 5/23/2003 5:09:50 PM]

john banks

P20 forgot to reply - nothing wrong with your torque figure at 1.3 bar. From looking at your plots before I think the rollers are not giving an accurate representation of what the torque delivery would be like on the road (as in where it is). Some of the plots last night looked silly for torque delivery (as in very late, undriveably so, very different to the road). For assessing relative differences with different setups, then playing with Dataloglag will be invaluable.

T-uk

I've only gone bonkers on this engine since I knew I was going to get another.

keep telling yourself that and you may believe it, ya loon

every set-up you run you push,remember these
decat PPP with dawes,home made FCD and fuelling.
hybrid tdo4 and ecutek at 300+bhp at PE.
big top mount and MD304 pushed to melt down 310bhp at star.
MD304 and fmic until it choked at about 350?.
TD05 and stripped third at 390bhp with delta dash/AP22 356bhp star.
now a TD06 which was pushed to until it stopped making power on your car at star.

you have been pushing it for two years and 20000+miles that I know of.

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

T-uk > I want to keep this forum on track with the original content. However, my latest figures are even more impressive than my current published figures.

T-uk

no problem christian.

I really hope you make TOTB as that is the best test, not bullsh1t rolling road figures with this variable and that, just true tests of what a car will do.

edit to add, I am not saying your figures are bull but I know we expected more for JB's last night and at other times through the year when rolling roads have been used.



[Edited by T-uk - 5/23/2003 5:58:05 PM]

M0NEY

Christian R, you say 460bhp. Im sure you posted something up before showing a bigger amount?! Didnt you post a graph on here showing a BIGGER amount??

EvilBevel

Well done John

The world has moved on from your first email to me

Shame you won't be keeping it this way for a while ... would be nice to see it actually hold out.

Very impressive, well done again.

EMS

Good work John!

Evil,

You don't need that amount of BHP to have fun on a closed airfield! (see you sunday!)

Mark.

jameswrx

iTrader: (4)

Spoon, I think John was after a 'last fling' with his 'soon to be replaced' engine..

Saying that though I think your comment is of coarse right if talking about joe bloggs running std internals with turbo, charge cooling and fuel delivery to make 400+bhp and not monitoring what happens after the car is initialy set up.

But It would be very interesting John to know how long with 'religous' (as you say) checking of egt's, det etc the standard internals would last.

Presuming you could keep the engine well fed (pistons cool and det at bay, which forgive my ignorance?, once you've set it up must be just a case of monitoring and fine tuning?) and lets say you could keep EGT's down and piston damage at bay for good with careful monitoring... what would fail if the pistons and bottom end could be kept safe from det?.

jameswrx

iTrader: (4)

double post

[Edited by jameswrx - 5/23/2003 10:17:35 PM]

Andy.F

I tell you as soon as I find out James I've done about 2k so far at this level, 99% of the time you are_not_ on full boost anyway.
It should last for ages on the road ? Regular trackdays would probably mean a shorter life ??

[Edited by Andy.F - 5/23/2003 10:23:40 PM]

WREXY

John,

When you pull the "old" engine out, will you be disecting it for inspection then?

Cheers,

George.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Cheers John, i should be doing some data logs with the miata link stuff on Sunday, assuming the aprcel waiting for me at the post office is my serial link adapter.

Steven

Adam M

I don't want to pull out, but its unfair taking a confirmed place if I don't think I will be ready for sure.

Will gladly swap with a reserve and put myself on the bottom of the reserve list.

jameswrx

iTrader: (4)

Top stuff Andy, I wasn't aware your car was internally std..

I'll look forward to knowing what breaks

Seriously though I'm with you in that it should be ok with the right level of care, why shouldn't it be?. How do you monitor?.

The way I look at it, if there's a problem (ie det) forged pistons will only take longer to break than std ones?.

I know ideally stronger is better, but even a well built capable strong engine built to take 450bhp will fail long before a std engine running std boost form both fresh, run back to back (IMO).

I'd like to see a comparrison between a extremely well monitored std internal engine running 400bhp (as John's) run back to back with a 400bhp fully internally modded(equally well monitored)...

I reckon the life span would be quite similar?

The way I look at it a big power engine is going to fail because of an input control problem(fuel, boost etc), now surely a std internal engine is the same but IMO the only difference is the tollerence time to the problem would be less.

john banks

I think Pete was suggesting earlier in the thread that the cast piston issue is mainly weight not strength. However, the ring lands don't look very beefy on the standard pistons. Detonation at 1.6+ bar will quickly do damage that it would not do at standard boost.

In terms of stripping the engine - was going to to see what damage if any was evident but at that stage I was going to use the original heads on the new engine, but I am not now - only borrowing the inlet manifold.

I think I'll keep the old one intact for a little while as a backup.

Whilst I have every faith in the engine builder, there is another issue with rebuilt engines..... whilst they are supposed to be better built for high power than the standard one, we all hear of cases where parts have been mis-specified or things not built properly and the rebuilt engine could well have more issues than the original.

For maximum reliability on an stressed engine I would want to use good aftermarket headers, factory rev limit, generously sized turbo run well within its efficiency zones, water injection, high octane fuel, and gauges, primarily a knocklink, but also boost, EGT, AFR, oil temp/pres. Good quality synthetic oil, meticulous warm up routine. I've not done all of this yet (headers, water, oil gauge still to go in).

[Edited by john banks - 5/23/2003 11:31:02 PM]

Andy.F

There are a few unknown life cycles at this level James, the only one that has me slightly nervous is the con rod loading. My calculations tell me that we are not loading them excessively in tension but the compressive loads are increased considerably.

I am of the opinion that rods fail in tension, not compression but others would disagree with that. Only a year ago, a number of respected names on this board told me that std rods will bend and snap with more than 320lbft torque !

Time will tell

Pavlo

if you want to use factory rev limit, why buy expensive rods?

Or do you mean factory Sti limit?

Would you run a higher limit with the same engine if it went into an Sti?

Paul

teknopete

Good stuff John

Some "nice" figures there fella.
Jeez it wasn`t that long ago that 300 was king eh Like has been said in another post "it`s only in the last 12 - 14 months we`ve really 1learned how to get the power outta the scoob" and now we`re in there the 400 - 500 doesnt really seem that far away.
Keep up the good work m8ty. It`s good 2 c that it is possible in another un-linked car

BTW thanks for takin the time through the week to address the issues with Jim now we`re all happy that the dyno is teek-a-leek Sunday`ll b a belt

Incedentally what config settings are u using on the AP?
And where did u mount u r EGT probe ? (mail me off-line if u prefer)

L8r m8
Pete

john banks

I meant factory rev limit on a factory engine. Thinking of 7500 for the stroker because 1. it will be all over by then 2. stroke increase 3. 2.2 aftermarket pistons probably weigh similar to STi 2.0

Sorry Pete just cross posted with you...

AP22 settings - Andy F has them all. For the Delta Dyno I use 1235kg base weight + 80 kg for me + 40 kg for 60 litre tank of fuel. Frontal area 2.2 sq m. Cd 0.35. Do average of runs in two directions. Because my tyres are almost slick the 10mm reduction in diameter I believe has inflated my Delta Dyno figures by 10 BHP of late. I'll confirm when the new tyres go on.

There are still a few issues with the dyno tests that are being worked on before the RR day. One is the torque delivery, comparison of a standardish car with other rollers, and why we need to use temp correction which bumps up the figures artificially.

[Edited by john banks - 5/24/2003 11:20:29 AM]

David_Wallis

john... Mark came round today... saw a block half done (in the boot of his car... They look very nice.. I cant wait

David

RICH WILD

Excellent results John, well done!

I hope that you can make it to Well Lane 6 in October.

If we can get yourself, Steve McCulloch, Dave Wallis, Harvey, and AndyF there, what a showdown that would be.

Cheers and keep up the good work

Rich

David_Wallis

and Trout

David

RICH WILD

Ohh Yes,

Sorry Trout m8,

I knew I'd forget someone

Rich

john banks

Hope the big(ger) engines are ready for then. I reckon we can add 17% to get a Well Lane figure Nomex suit zipped up ready, hit me with your flamer kits you Southern tarts

john banks

... no I don't really think I've got 475 BHP. Maybe somewhere in the middle ?