biedermeier

they want to build a road through that cementary? 'How logn are we supposed to be graetfull'? Now that IS a disgrace...
My answer - always and keep that in mind forever.
Norman Davies is going to write a book about the Warsaw Uprising'44 - if it's gonna be as ironic as his book about Great Britan then I'll be very upset. It's quite similar really - The '4a Uprising is a legend for most of the Poles - and although it is considered now to have been a stupid (politically) act those people deserve to be remembered as HEROES. So do the soldiers burried in Ypres.

Rb - and I'll say you are a kutas and a chuj and a ****. How's that?

biedermeier

oh - Dai - sorry for the mercenary bit. There I went too far.
But could you tell me your secret - where were you in Yougoslavia? And when? And what were you doing there?

daiscooby

biedermeier
I was in Gornji Vakuf and Banja Luka in Bosnia mostly and many places in between.
I was an Operational Intelligence Field Specialist. So I spent most of my time freezing up mountains. My speciality was counter insurgency and reconnaissance.
There were Polish troops in Bosnia at the time but I didn't meet any. But they had a good reputation.
I saw you post about the Dutch mob, but they were ordered out and not to intervene. I saw many people picked off by snipers and we had these snipers in our sights. But we were ordered not to open fire unless we were fired on first. Those were IFOR's rules of engagement.
One incident sticks in my mind. We were in convoy to Banja and the local children used to gather at certain points for us to throw chocolates and sweets to them from the vehicles. One day we were throwing these sweets to the kids, when some local youths, 14-18 years old, started throwing hypodermic needles at us like darts. These needles were from a local rubbish dump used for medical waste. We stopped the convoy and tried to apprehend these youths and came under sniper fire from some farm buildings near by. The children were used as bait by the local militia on several occasions like this.

sexy wrx69

LMAO...i cant believe this is still going

daiscooby

Sexy WRX 69

You can't, I deffo cant believe it. We are on war stories now. Me and my pile of donkey ****

TopBanana

Our Polish au pair comes over in August, will have to show her this thread

daiscooby

jlanng

Deal, as long as I can see the Polish Au Pair

TopBanana

LOL, she's mine - all mine, mwuhahahahahah

daiscooby

Curses, foiled again
< Turns around and flings cape while twiddling my curly waxed moustache >

Diesel

Very entertaining! Bonding to fight a common enemy – just what made Europe, err, great!

So when are you two getting married then - I love a good Polish wedding with lots of Wijeska and Zybrowka

Watch out for ex-military snipers muttering 'contiaid cegog' in the bushes though :P

Czesc

D

biedermeier

yeah, I know there were Polish troops in the IFOR. One unit was even before the martial court because they have opened fire to Serb Militia in... yep the same Srebrenica. I was wondering if it was a better thing to do - after all - killing is killing. And you can't really say who was 'good' and who was the villian in that war - I mean the Croats were acting like beasts too - the Kosovites weren't better...
Damn.
Respect.
Have you seen that movie - "Warriors - an impossible mission" - I think it's the strongest war film ever made - the best about Bosnia for sure. The worst thing for me when I watched it was... that the towns like Travnik, Banja Luka or even Sarajevo look like most towns in central Poland... Shiit.I still can't believe something like that war happened in the nineties - and in Europe!
Well - they say it's even worse in Tchetchenia - but somehow the world doesn't care.
It's ¯ubrówka Diesel I'm in love with that vodka - unbeatable.
And what would a Polish wedding be without Wind of Change - eh Dai ?
I haven't heard it in a long time - gotta find my 'relict of the eighties' tape player :P
What's wrong with the Scorpions anyway? Crappy popmetal but why not listen to it from time to time. "I follow the Moskwa, down to Gorky Park..."



[Edited by biedermeier - 6/12/2003 5:49:54 PM]

biedermeier

look at that - I just came here on a patriotic crusade - and out of the blue - 29 posts

EvilBevel

Apologies if this sounds "catholic", but... *amen* Bied.

Of all the places you mention, I've only been to Sarajevo (1985 I think). Also saw Mostar and Dubrovnic... Dubrovnic used to be the number one "scenery" for quite a few US/UK movies...such brilliant places... a few years later all hell broke loose

Sarajevo... what was the name of the bridge again where Cavrillo Princip <sp?> started a small world war ? There was a museum just next to it.

I remember having such a good feeling about the fact that muslims, catholics and orthodox church people lived together so merrily... ho hum

Maybe that's why we need the EU (the real EU, not the joke it currently is)? So we don't have to ask the US friends time & time again to intervene ?

Diesel... LOL Don't you have some "blue Ring movies" to edit

biedermeier

yeah - it was such an idylly (sp?)
I still can't figure it out why it all colepsed after Tito died. My Serbian friend told me that there was a plan of complete decentralization therefore formint a union of communities, heighbourhoods where people would get on well. But the Serbs wanted to be in charge - and then the nacionalisms awoke...

Diesel

I too walked over the bridge in Mostar & gave the kids some Dinars to jump off it! Had a beer in Dubrovnik and swam in beautiful Lake Bled... Tito kept it this calm and beautiful way by ruling with an iron rod and always immediately squashing any hint of Non-Jugoslavjan nationalism or separatism. I do not know if he was right or wrong to do this - that one is well over my head...

Anyway, back to my Ring piece Evil - John & I are finally nailing it in 2 weeks. Not coming out of the dark room till it is done - even if it hurts

D

PS None of that is rude!

daiscooby

Heard a story about Tito in Gornji Vakuf:
There was a few killings and shootings in the local area between Serbs and Croats in the late seventies. Anyway Tito got fed up and one day rolled up and said if they persisted then he would level any village involved and move the people out to other areas.
Killings stopped.
Iron fist is right for Tito.

biedermeier

At least they got the message...
I think he was right - natinalism is only a source of hatred, violence and vengance - he was just smarter than some of the people.
Smart because he kept his country in peace, smart because he didn't let Yougoslavia be forced into the Eastern Block - which meant that it was practically a free market, high standard place.
(so the comparison with Poland is not really just is it - it's like noticing that China is backward when compared to Hongkong - they are both in East Asia)

[Edited by biedermeier - 6/13/2003 4:29:32 PM]

EvilBevel

Yougoslavia confused the hell out of me... it was "communist" but you could buy Marlboro etc... police were very discreet ... welcoming all tourists.

Tito... I suppose he would be called a "dictator" today, but the weird thing is that he was loved by a very large part of the population, if only for his heroism during WWII (and the little fact of keeping the place together for 45 odd years)

It wasn't just an "official party line", Tito was in the hearts of quite a few people as far as I could figure out. It was clear that he loved his country and its people, and vice versa.

Maybe the problem was that they were so dependant on this strong figure (hope history will do him right) that as soon as he died, everyone seemed to think "oh, OK, now let's rock"... so maybe democracy isn't that stupid after all.

The destroyed bridge in Mostar for me is a symbol of how quickly something can go wrong One minute it's a tourist paradise, the next one people are being killed left right & centre.

In hindsight (but isn't that easy) those nationalistic feelings were there all along, but they were just waiting for Tito to disappear.

Oh well, maybe the German government was a bit quick with supporting Slovenia in their independance ? At least, that's what a lot of historicians over here seemed to think. After that, there was a domino effect.

Diesel, ... sounds painful

Dai, Genever... that stuff kills your liver quite quickly Being a UK hater I am much more into malt whisky

And I like the Scorpions, sue me

biedermeier

Well it was communist but it wasn't a Soviet Satelite - right after WWII Josip Broz Tito the communist guerilla hero told Stalin to take a hike - he could do that because Yougoslavia was not liberated by the Red Army. And so he biult a unique socialist country with its own doctrine (titoism) and as far from the USSR as it could be but not joining the NATO> Then he was the founder member of the 'non align' movement along with Nehru for example.
And the people loved him - they still do. Why shouldn't they?
You don't need a general party line if you lead your country in peace and a generally good state. It's like with the emperor Franz Josef in Austro-Hungary. Some autoritary dictators are not overthrown by their people because they really know what their people need. In the 70s and 80s Yougoslavia in Poland was a synonime of 'heaven on earth' - it was easier to get a passport (yes you Western,Capitalist scumbags (LOL ) you had to apply for a passport any time you wanted to bo abroad - 70% of demands were denied and even if you got it when you came back you had to give it to the Militia within a week or so) to go there than to say France and you could buy anything you've ever dreamt of...



[Edited by biedermeier - 6/13/2003 5:57:29 PM]

EvilBevel

Can you believe I had forgotten that bit ? Was that the "Warsaw Pact" or was that something different still ?

Takes someone from a "backward" country to remind me eh (just kidding just kidding !!!)

I didn't dare to write it that way, but he indeed seemed to be a hero back then in the minds of the people. I didn't dare, because maybe I got it wrong. But I don't think people wrote his name in their garden with flowers just because a "party" told them...

Is he still loved today as the "father" figure he once was Bied ?

I can imagine his country was "heaven" for you guys back then... even though I'm a capitalist swine LOL It was heaven for me too :blush:

biedermeier

I suppose now he's loved twice as much - after the war people understood what a blessing it was to have him in charge.
I know that the Serbs admire him - but I haven't had the opportunity to speak to the Bosnians (they might think he was great) but the Croats for example, now when they have their own country might see him as a Serbian dictator rather than Papa Tito.
It's good to remember that there was a croatian **** guerilla (ustash) helping the Germans fight Titos communist guerilla (tchetnic).
No Evil - The Warsaw Pact was formed in 1955 as a response to West Germany's access to NATO. It was a similar organisation - with USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia,Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Albania and Eastern Germany in it. What it really meant was that every one of those countries had Soviet troops on their teritory. It was supposed to be used in defence. The WP forces were used once - in the spring of 1968 - to regain control over the rebelling Czechoslovakia (so as you can see the only act of 'defence' was atacking one of the pact members )
The 'Non Align' movement was a political organisation (IS in fact - I think it never stopped working (neither did it start...)) of 'third world countries' - and 'third world' does not mean Africa, famine and LiveAid - the term originally meant countries that weren't either in the Eastern (communist - represented by the Warsaw Pact+Cuba,Vietnam) block nor the Western (read NATO and ECC)block. So - the founders were Tito of Yougoslavia, Nehru(Gandhi's son in law as I recall) of India, Sukarno of Indonesia, Naser of Egypt,Chou of China, some African and Arab countries as well. It was established in Bandung (I think it is a suburb of Jakarta - not sure ) in 1955 (so the same year as NATO and Warsaw Pact were formed).
I see a light at the end of the tunnel for my 'backward'country - education
I still feel that you need to hear about the battle of Warsaw - some American history profesor put it on the list of battles that changed the world - alongside Waterloo and Hastings. No doubt about it.


[Edited by biedermeier - 6/13/2003 7:55:55 PM]

biedermeier

damn - the classic is dying
I'll be off then.

Diesel

Very happy to hear of the Battle of Warsaw B ! Posh lee (oops that’s 'lets go' in Russian – close enough ;-)

Evil said >>In hindsight (but isn't that easy) those nationalistic feelings were there all along, but they were just waiting for Tito to disappear.<<

I would never DARE to appear more perceptive than you mate but world history shows that whenever there is any suppression of national identity or a citizens' right to normal and non prejudicial (read Nazism here maybe) self expression of this identity then there will be trouble somewhere down the line… Jugoslavja was probably the very best recent example of this and clearly shows that you cant keep the locals suppressed forever – even with Tito’s ‘vision’?. Who the hell loves his neighbour after all? Do Walloons love the English Do Mexicans embrace the Yanks? Do the Ros Beef adore the Mangers d'Escargots?

People just always want to be who they are – in recent history England wanted one homogenous English speaking and English ruled Great Britain, they did pretty well, but it was ultimately always over my dead Scots/Irish/Welsh body… My dead Kurdish, Palestinian, Jewish, Karen, Romany, Marsh Arab, Basque, Iraqi Shia, Nepalese, African American body etc etc The story always involves blood and a dogged determination to REMAIN to be who you are…

Nationalism is not a dirty word – it is those who have a problem with allowing you to be a citizen of your own nation that have the problem. Let sleeping dogs lie maybe; let Milosevich wake up all the dogs? Turks out of Cyprus! Macedonia will always be Greek. Tito?? Adolph??? Mr Bushhhh - HELP.

D
I know I shouldn't have got into this

biedermeier

You're right in places but in the other you're wrong - Tito and Adolf don't come in packages - the first was a commie - which actually implies his cosmopolitism. It's not that he opressed the Bosnians (in his time there was no such thing as 'Bosnian"' - it was just 'a Yugoslav who happens to be muslim') or the Croats ('a Yugoslav who happens to be catholic') - if he opressed somebody it was equal - so he didn't defrenciate between Serbs ('Yugoslavs who happen to be orthodox' ) and the rest. I think that nationalism is not patriotism - there's too much 'fatherland', 'living space', 'our ancestors' soil' involved. It's a biological atavism (sp?)! We do not need territory anymore, do we? Life is just so much easier when you don't fight your neighbours!

Ok - about that battle.
It was 1920 - the World War had just ended and the situation in the region was not stable. Poland was indepentand again - after 123 years - but had no clear borders. Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus had no borthers either as for the last three it was practically first time since the middle ages to be free. And there was Germany - who felt it was treated unfairly by the Versailles Treaty - was going through a time of crisis and the people were restless. In Russia the Bolshevic were still fighting the White Generals.France nad England were encouraging Poland to help the White but were not willing to give a clear answer to the question of our eastern borders. The White were clear though - Poland shall not be independant as long as Russia exists. You can see thet it was not our "raison d'etat" to help them
But in June the Bolshevics were attacking and the White had no chance of stopping them. Lloyd George decided he was going to do buisiness with the Soviets - so they grew even stronger. The Poles knew that our country would be their next target - the strikes in Germany turned into a communist revolution so it was natural that the Russians would want to help them. The workers - due to the post war economic situation - were rebelling in France and England as well. So mr.Pilsudski - Poland's Chief of Nation you might say - a war hero, and also a sort of a dictator - decided there was no time to lose. He signed an agreement with Petlura - a Ukrainian separatist - that they would fight the Red Army together. And so Poland struck first - as there was practically no big Red Army divisions in the region, the Poles got as far as Kiev! They actually used horse streetcars(public transport) to get into the city! But this is where the trouble started - the Bolshevic having dealt with the White used all their forces against Poland. In less than a month our troops were forced to move west - reaching the Vistula river and Warsaw in August.The situation was grave. No ammo or weapons could come from France or England as Czechoslovakia and Germany blocked the borders - no ships because the British port workers were procommunist and didn't want to help the 'White Poland'. One step away from an all-european revolution. The Bolshevic formed a Polish communist government ready to take control.
Poland managed to equip 100.000 volunteers who were 'the only hope'. And this is where Pilsudski's strategic genious comes in. He came up with an unlikely manouver - devide the Polsh troops , stop the Russian offensive with the stronger part and use the smaller part (5 divisions) to attack the Red Army's flank . And so they did. We call it 'the miracle by the Vistula river' - because no one actually believed(all the embassies were closed down ) a small and not fully equiped Polish Army could not only stop the Bolshevic - but eventually they turned tail and fled!. The RA HQ was completly surprised - and the RA had to move 300 km to the east.It was Pilsudski's triumph.
And so Poland remained independant and not communist - so did Germany and probably also the rest of Western Europe - because taking Germany would really mean a communist movement leading to a European Soviet Union rather than the EU
That's it basically. You can see how ironic it was to make Poland - communists' greatest and most hated enemy - into the People's Republic of Poland after the WWII


[Edited by biedermeier - 6/16/2003 6:09:14 PM]

EvilBevel

Stop it !

D., I'm not very perceptive really, just remember the buss trip from Dubrovnic/k to Sarajevo, and the guide talking all the time about "this is Bosnia/Herzigovina <sp?> and this is not"... I wasn't very clever back then (things don't change LOL) but I "felt" something weird was burried in all the "name calling". I could not "place it" mind. I was a 24 year old tourist, eager to learn and be amazed by other cultures, but I was *gobsmacked* (heh ) by all the "categories" the guide was making. I just thought she was a weirdo, but in hindsight, there was a bit more to it...

Bied, sorry, not really want to let you down, and in many ways, it is *very* refreshing to see people like you post on here Don't mean this in a naughty way, but did you happen to study history ? You sure seem to know your stuff (and I still blush for mixing up the Warshaw pact with the "niet gebonden/non allies" (non aligned) countries ...) My excuse is a language thing...

There have even been even worse "wars" (Burundi anyone ?) in the mean time, including mass ethnic cleansing, with "numbers" pretty close to the worst of the ***** "best" . And active involvement/non involvment by the "Europeans"...

BTW, just learned today that Idi Amin is still alive and well in Saudi-Arabia, possibly having a few "fingers" in the whole Congo puddle of mud Rogue states anyone ?

Nationalism *sucks*, unless it involves pondering/wondering about culture, history, literature, tradition, music ... the good things to preserve... from that POV I don't think Bied needs to learn any lessons from us *at all* But as soon as it gets to a point of "us & them"... foggetaboutit !

That bridge in Mostar was a masterpiece, an icon, and I don't give a hoot if it was built by muslims (correct answer !), Belgians, Ethiopians, or dwarfs.

<really outtahere now ! >

[Edited by EvilBevel - 6/16/2003 6:38:23 PM]

biedermeier

Why are you so eager to leave Evil? This thread is going to be a Scooby record soon - am I right? Why not participate in building it up?

BTW - posh lee - although it sounds like 'expensive kung-fu fighter' means let's go in Polish too - poszli! - but it's slang.

I didn't study history - like *proper* study. I just had my first exam to qualify for a univeristy today I had to learn history - to pass the bac and most of the faculties I'm isnterested in have something to do with history - but I don't really have a master degree YET LOL But history is a sort of penchant of mine too - along with other things.
Evil - I just used my poor math skills (subtraction) and realized that you happen to be almost exactely the age of my father...
Should I call you Uncle Evil?

Don't you thing that nationalism 'involving that wondering/pondering' can be simply called patriotism?
Patriotism is the pride - you're proud of your nation's culture and heritage and you are willing to add something to it even if it is a sacrifice. And you also want to pass the knowledge of your country on to next generations ... and foreigners - which I am trying to do btw
Got lots of info from the history department as I have revised a lot lately. But there are other things too - literature, poetry and stuff. Oh - and Scoobydooooos

[Edited by biedermeier - 6/16/2003 7:07:38 PM]

biedermeier

oops - no he'll never come back!

unclebuck

This thread is going to be a Scooby record soon - am I right?

Nah.... no where near. Take a look in the Muppet Show forum..

UB

biedermeier

oh - whatever :P
where is everybody? C'mon - it was so nice talking to you!
I sort of liked the Polish History Lectures

shaftty

If anybody from UK want to say again something stupid about poland i advise to click here and look at the pictures of cars and girls (esp. that one in red near "cameleon" supra)

http://forum.streetracing.pl/viewtop...r=asc&start=90

And then sit down and relax :P


[Edited by shaftty - 6/9/2003 3:02:24 PM]