rmcoasby

John,

Join the club mate. My StiV engine, (low mileage, well cared for, no track days etc) went bang a couple of weeks back. After a few days of frantic phone calls I was pointed to API Engines by Pete Croney. Give David O'Brien a ring - thoroughly nice chap. I got a nice P1 engine for 2,500 UK pounds, another 100 quid to ship to Cyprus and bingo!

Richard

velohead66

My 'failure' as described above occured at 43,000 miles with the last subaru service at 32,000 miles (50,000km service).
Actually had 2 oil changes in between service & failure.
Both times Mobil 1 5w50.

I'll be using Castrol Formula R 10w60 as Castrol RS is being phased out over here. Still a bit worried about it being a 10wXX rather then a 15wXX though. Min air temp is about 4 degrees C here, as we never ever get a frost, and hot summer days (when they happen) are hot.

Car has always been driven hard and fast, but only when circumstances allow.
I've never had a problem in the UK, but I am concerned about the choice/avaliability of oil.

NB
the car is fully standard,
only used octane booster (millers) once due to being in the sticks with no SUL available,

PS - my rebuild cost NZD 4,600 ~> GBP 1,400 (@3.3ish)

They used the same pistons which were described by subaru as
"semi-forged". Mmmmm, didn't know they did those !!

5 Type R

I am no expert but I would certainly say problems could well occur on those days you were only runnning normal SU (95RON) and perhaps hot days with lots of heat soak.

These engines are strong but need to be treated with extreme amounts of attention, and when it comes to the imports there are just a few golden rules that need to be applied it seems

-Never run on 95 alone
-Always try and run on Optimax and an octane booster
-Avoid full load acceleration in very very hot conditions if its been in traffic idleing.
Try and avoid full boost for long periods in top gear at high speeds.........
-Preferably get as many monitoring utilities.....boost, knock, lambda,
- Best solution is get a remap specifically to the settings and fuel you are likely to run.

- Water Injection is also a very good tool to aid against detonation

THOMO

can anyone tell me where they have seen shell state that optimax
is 98/99 ron.it does not say that at the pumps and neither in the leaflet at the garage.

dba

Optimax with Millers OP has been tested at 99.3 Ron afaik

Stealth

iTrader: (4)

I've got a 93WRX... well half of one now, it only has 57K on the clock, I thought... hmm time for service, don't want it blowing up now do I.

I booked it in for a service and 2 weeks later the Bastid thing blew up on the M11 at 1am I was only running at 75mph, The car is always run on optimax etc etc never tracked.. you just can't win.... now i need a new engine

pban

Interesting thread, for what its worth -

I had a STI 5 from new did 60k an Magnatec sold it and is still going strong last time I saw the car.

I have replaced it with another STI 5, this one had the big end replaced about 4k before I bought it. When repaired it was treated to the "Roger Clarks" oil pump, also standard fit for all David Hendry supplied cars. There are also many other recommending the uprated oil pump. I wouldn't use the Magnatec again, lets just say my knowledge has been increased. Last night heard of a STI 5 with uprated oil pump and using Castrol RS 10/60 which has had a big end bearing failure.

Try and make a conclusion out of that little lots.

Paul

dba

Big end thread

Big end thread oil follow up

[Edited by dba - 6/26/2003 10:21:46 AM]

mrgtr

6k is way over-priced, expect half that for a bottom end rebuild using genuine parts, 6k would be ok if you were havin carrilo rods etc. castrol magnatec is ok forcars it was designed for (mondeos etc), it hasnt got the film strength or thermal capacity of a fully synthetic oil.

johngunn666

Guys.

Thanks for all the info (too much to take in though!). Links to previous threads are much appreciated.

This problem seems fairly common so I am a bit surprised that I had not heard about it prior to buying the car; still it doesn't seem to put the rest of you off the Impreza though ie people still buy even though a problem may be brewing.

Another possibility is to use a donor engine; any thoughts on that? My advice is that an engine could be sourced for £1200 and then say £900 to fit. Seems cheaper than a rebuild but is it a better solution?

John.

THOMO

£900 to fit ill do it for that.should only take for 5hrs max
£180 per damn good rate.i do see your point though just bye a another engine.my freind would fit it in for around £300 he did mine. i also think its amazing how people still think that the car is so reliable JD POWER SURVEY ETC.although people on scoobynet dont like to talk about cossys i think the cosworth engine is a far better engine and nissans oh and mitsubishi oh and toyota.the worst thing about the engine is that the problems have been around for years, what have they done about it.in the seven versions made they all still suffer the same problems . version 8 ? .anyway im off for a blast in my scoob.......lol

Glenn_R

Had same thing on my P1. Big end failure and #2 piston. Funny, mine happened straight after a service! Subaru covered all the work under warranty thank God but the Dealer mentioned a total cost of somewhere IRO £7K!!

toplad!

If your interested Scoobyclinic can do the full job including collecting the car for £1500. They have done loads and do warrant their engines. You can contact Kev on 01246 590807, hope this helps

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Guys, guy's: steady on with what amounts to a bunch of conjecture and hearsay.

We rebuilt over 110 engines last year for all shapes and sizes of Subaru, [Foresters, Outbacks, 2.5's, Imprezas of every known version, GTB Legacy's; you name it ] and one overriding fact came through time after time. Almost all cars had been either serviced in the last 4 weeks or had been bought [and thus probably serviced] within the last 4 weeks. The shortest time/distance was on a UK turbo classic shape that didn't make the 400 yards to the traffic lights after a Subaru dealer service. Rattle, Rattle, back to the dealer; "Whats that funny noise please?" "Oh that'll be the big ends, they all do that!" says unsympathetic dealer, "We can fix that, it usually costs about £4000!"

Imprezas don't go wrong in Japan - hardly ever for the 'big end problem' So , it's reasonable to assume that as they WILL be running on 100 Ron SUL and that the heat sink on the intercooler is probably worse than the Uk circumstances. I've been in Japan at this time of year when the temp is over 42 degrees. Traffic also moves quite slowly, so again it would be fair to say that the intercooler temps and manifold temps are high.

Where's the difference then in the UK?, where the ambient temp is lower by some way [ ever seen 30 degrees in the UK?] The answer to the above is resoundingly fuel quality and detonation.

We all have a our preferred oils and in my opinion all quality oils are as good as each other, PROVIDING that you use the correct SAE range for your car and the circumstances that its being driven in, there is nothing to suggest that Mobil or Castrol or Shell or de-da, de-da, or whatever is the 'wrong' oil. Japanese domestic cars will be running on whatever oil is in them as used by the garage or owner , AND THEY DON'T GO WRONG !!

The oil pump is another red herring, they don't fail!! The debris from the wrecked bearing or melted piston gets into the relief valve after the event, not before. If not, where does the debris come from? There is a perfectly good filtration system that is designed to cope with a CERTAIN AMOUNT of debris until overload point.

The standard oil pump has a perfectly good oil supply rate - along the lines of nine gallons a minute or so [I'm sure somebody will supply the exact figure] The pressure rate is more than enough for the engine. Do you imagine that after all Fuji Heavy's design work and testing work that someone can come along and for the want of a better description, stick a packing piece under the pressure relief spring and produce a pump better than F H I ??

Nothing can be done to the supply rate without making new gears. Nobody does. They're crank driven so no chance of change there either. It ain't the oil pump !! are you listening??

We condemned 3 pumps out of 110 engines last year they were destroyed by debris the rest were washed out, tested and are still running around now.

Back to my first point, why do they go wrong just after a service?? I don't know !!

I suspect that it is a cumulative effect of being started straight from an oil change without full supply and pressure on a bearing that is already suffering from overload due to det. If you think that the engine at 50,000 miles, or Km's whatever, has had 6 / 8 services, it has thus been started from 'dry' the same number of times. At some point, enough is enough and the bearing furthest from oil supply, furthest from cold water supply, nearest to hot turbo position, gives up the ghost because it has also been weakened by det.

That's my opinion based upon solid data that I've gathered myself.

If any one has constructive opinion as to why it may happen another way, I'd be real happy to listen as I want to be able to tell my customers that their expensive repair won't happen ever again. Re map it and it almost certainly won't, but remember UK versions do it as well, just at a much higher mileage and less often.

David API Engines

mart360

Well done that man

David you have summed up the concern and the associated concerns to a tee,

I have known for some time, that all parts produced for the automotive industry must meet a required spec.

however as with all components if there is any contact with human hands there is always the risk of fubar!!

Mart

THOMO

nice plug and deserved, now put your prices down.

dfullerton

Hhehehe

krazy

Ok yep tend to agree there...
But isn't the lack of japanese failures probably more down to the 80km/h speed limits, and any tracked cars will probably be modded etc..
On days when when your really bored... try out the japanese translation tools on altavista or something and look for info there..
Common starting upgrades are fuel pump and oil coolers.
One suggestion there, on one site they tested the standard fuel pump, and the conclusion was it was good for 270-300 bhp, on their fuel i guess.
Another suggestion, I think it was on an australian site suggested a larger oil sump was necessary, first time i've heard of than one, but it can kinda makes sense of the bearing failure?
But then again... search around and you'll find engines with all of the upgrades that u can think of/read of and they still failed.

[Edited by krazy - 6/27/2003 10:48:57 PM]

Scratch

iTrader: (1)

APIDavid - Well said that man.

Hadn't seen this thread before.

As for the guy trashing Magnatec on page 1 - wake up and ask someone who knows - Magnatec is a perfectly good oil that is more than capable of surviving in a Subaru Engine for 7500 miles as all other semi-sythetics will. They will more than outlast this distance even driven hard. Undoubtedly Magnatec will meet and probably excede the minimum oil standard for this engine.

People who don't know sh*t spouting off about things they think they know about with no knowledge reallty pisses me off. Go spend some time learning how lubricants work and how to apply them, then come back and comment with some knowledge.... (gets off his horse, and goes and sits on the sofa)......

Bob Rawle

David has repeated the conclusions from the "famous" or "imfamous" big end No 3 thread, that also conluded (least all the data I gathered supported) the view that most incidents happened shortly after servicing. With regard to oil pumps, the object here is to ensure that the pressure relief plunger doesn't pick up, stick and cause problems, there is no need to try and increase pressure or flow. To do that there are things that should be done to the main bearings though.

No problems in Japan, not quite true but ... remember that the cars were designed for the Japanese market and certainly JDM cars are/were speed limited, they would never therefore normally see the sort of sustained high loads we apply as we, being us, delimit and expect the poor thing to be happy. So we could be running outside the design spec by delimiting, moral, avoid sustained high engine loads ie in 4th or 5th at high revs especially type R or RA's.

Lastly, and this is something of relatively recent thought, these engines as std have very small piston to bore clearance, sustained high load could cause a piston to nip momentarily, oil film breaks down, hot spot ... big end failure.

Magnatec ... its definately not good enough for a Subaru engine ... doesn't maintain its viscocity index and carburises far too easily ... asking for trouble even in a std engine. Thats based on my personal experience and knowledge.

Maybe we should open up Big end no 3 again, although its definately not no 3 that fails the most. That depends on the model year.

bob

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Bob & Others,

Thanks guys, A few points to make still here. APi Engines has been importing, building, servicing and generally very prominent in the Japanese car engine market since 1982. I've been to Japan many, many times. Credentials, not plug, unless you want it to be.

The type of cars that generally remain limited to 180 KPH are regular family cars and commerceial vehicles. You will see full on modified cars doing standing starts at any set of traffic lights on any, mostly weekend, night. The cars tend to work very hard and certain highways are deemed 'no limit zones' and the kids do their thing with only scant attention from the cops.

I've imported cars with a VERY decent competition spec that would not be out of place on a rally or a racetrack. I currently have a Type R that is putting out @330 hp as it arrived from Japan and I've had the speedo needle round to 20 minutes to eight on a clockface from its zero position. Straight from Japan. Cars like STi's, Evo's, Skylines are worked VERY hard in Japan and to buy a standard one is a real challenge. I firmly believe that if they were going to go wrong they had every chance to do so long before they arrived here.

Bob, my general point about oil, is that, it's wrong to condemn a particular type of oil because it's fashionable. I wouldn't disagree with your opinion about magnatec there because I don't know any different.

I used to get all my competition parts machined by a very wise engineer that had been in racing motorbikes all his working life. He maintained that he could strip 5 racing bike engines and tell you which one had been run on Duckhams. It was always the one that was worn out. True, not true, dunno, but it's safe to say that I experienced more wear and tear on my engines in the year that I had sponsorship from Duckhams than at any other time. No failures, just more wear. I wouldn't draw a conclusion from that but it bore out what he said.

As for reducing my prices - I gotta eat guys and I already am half the cost of 2 other specialists............. LOL

David

Scratch

iTrader: (1)

Bob

Viscosity index is a value that reflects the rate of change of viscosity with temperature. Given the nature of the way oils are graded (viscosity wise) it is a linerised value as it is from a log-log scale (used to create a linear relationship), therefore it must maintain it's viscosity index.

It's viscosity index may however be low, resulting in larger viscosity changes over a given temperature range.

But as I said before - Semi synthetic oils will be more than capable in a Scooby engiene. Now, if we're talking motors that are driven hard 9/10th of the time, than I woudld undoubtedly go for a synthetic every time. Fully synthetic oils have a higher viscosity index than semi's and "normal" engine oils, meaning that they will have a smaller change in viscosity for a given temperature increase. this means they will keep doing their job within specification at higher temeperatures. They will also operate at higher temperatures with lower carburisation rates than less oils. Typically every 5 degree temperature increase over 55deg C will see the rate of carburisation double in an oil. Fully synthitic oils will resist this degredation for longer and keep on working, and they have better thermal stability.

(edited for typos - damn that red wine )
[Edited by Scratch - 6/27/2003 11:34:27 PM]

PS - Just 'cos an oil goes black doesn't mean it cr@p it means it's doing it's job. Oils have additives - Fact. Anti-oxidation additives, VI improvers, Anti-wear additives (often based on zinc product usually refered to as ZDDP). Anyway, one of the additives is typically to hold oxidation products in suspension in the oil. The main oxidation product is carbon, this is the reason oils go black. If you want to know if it's had it check it's acid level (TAN number) and amount additives remaining (BTW diesel engine oil goes black quicker as they dump more oxidation product than pertol engines). The reason most oil need changing at the intervals they do is due to additive depletion as the additives are used up by doing their job. The base oil is usually OK (to a point).

[Edited by Scratch - 6/27/2003 11:40:54 PM]

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Sorry to bang on, just picked up on a couiple of Bob's points on a second read.

Subaru original bore clearance is about .9 of a thou from memory, which on a Ford wouldn't even turn over, it's that tight. But by the time the engine fails at: Our lowest was an STi 6 wagon at 21,ooo miles, the clearance would be well over that. Our measured bore clearances, when we bother [ it's usually visible to the eye] is generally in the order of 5 thou rising to 15 thou. I agree the original clearance is tight but don't really consider it to be a contribution.

I don't think that the original Subaru knock sensor is sensitive enough or fast acting enough or possibly well postioned enough to react quickly to retard the ignition when it should. Remember also, that, at high engine revs there is so much mechanical clatter going on in an engine that the knock sensor probably has trouble seeing the wood from the trees.

Of the number of Impreza engines that we built last year of all ages and versions it was number 3 big end in over 85% of cases, but I also agree that, of the majority, they were also 96/97/98 registered cars.

GTB's tend to melt number 2 piston crown, probably a manifold temperature thing. But not really enough data from about 5 engines out of the total. This year we will probably exceed last years number and the data follows on the same theme.

Going to bed now my head hurts.

David

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Scratch, Lastly, I read what you say, but I have to say that I don't comprehend half of it. I presume that you are something to do with an oil company or similar. That sort of knowledge doesn't get learnt from tele ads and top gear !!

l'll read it again in the morning to see if it's me that's thick or, -- NO!, it's probably me that's thick.

David

Bob Rawle

Subaru clearances can start as low as 0.0004", even with wear at high loads that means a piston "could" nip up, it would, of course, depend on what the mod state of the car was, how it was fueling etc, I am not advocating the use of synthetic over non-synthetic merely observing from my own past eperience that the Magnetec is imho, not good in a tuned Impreza engine (oil analysis has supported this), I would, however, run Shell Helix semi-synth in its place up to a point, synthetic is only suitable once the engine has fully bedded in in any case so what to use for the first 7000 miles or so?

At the end of the day most people in the trade use their prefered brands of everything and swear by them (usually), this topic has been very openly aired in the past with global contributions, advice can be accepted or not but should be at least considered.

A good sign of how an oil is doing is idle oil pressure, does it decrease significantly over miles, I use Motul M300V and would also use Castrol RS 10:60 or Mobil Motorsport 15:50, the Motul goes black but does not carburise and oil pressure remains very consistent over the whole service range of 7500 miles (although I usually change every 3500). As an aside when I changed to Motul my idle oil pressure immediately jumped up 1.2 bar in idle pressure and has remained like that unless I use something different. Its my prefered oil but as I say, its all a choice.

There will be and remain mixed views on why these engines run their big ends but one thing is for certain high engine loads for prolonged periods should be avoided in a std engine. Servicing procedure also plays a part in nmy view, and what type of oil filter (ie avoid aftermarket and only use genuine parts)

bob

THOMO

very good points now my head has totally spun around. i cancelled my appoint for today at your place bob two weeks ago , i wish i never. i had to go out with the family.ill re -book on monday.and
to back up the magnatec. ive used it once after 3 weeks i started it one moring to hear that engine rattle i took it straight out and put some slick 50 in with my semi syn esso which ive been using for years.bob and dave would you agree that its time for subaru to put the intercooler to the front.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Thomo, Re: would you agree that its time for subaru to put the intercooler to the front.

Yes, probably, But like all these things it's a compromise between build cost and insurance rating. Where the Subaru intercooler is, in original fitment, is not ideal, but works and does transfer an amount of weight to well within the wheelbase.

Putting it out the front brings issues of weight, lag and insurance cost to repair. Most write offs are so because of uneconomical repair and usually because a whole bunch of stuff at the front gets squashed. Thus recognising the potential cost to repair the insurance companies set their 'risk rating' accordingly and every point that can be reduced by increases sales potential.

But yes, generally you'd have to be swayed by the fact that it works much better in a clean fresh air flow.

David

dba

so........having read all the old threads and now this one,the best guess re BE n.o3 is it goes because its nearer the turbo and shares the same oil feed as n.o 2,so substained loads could kill it due to heat?

Stuart Knight

iTrader: (2)

John,

I would speak to Dave at Risboro 4 Wheel Drive re your rebuild. He is an independant Subaru specialist who is significantly cheaper than a main dealer. Ring him on 01844 274652

scoobynutta555

"The type of cars that generally remain limited to 180 KPH are regular family cars and commerceial vehicles."

Guess my old wrx and sti5typeR were owned by regular familiy guys as the limiters were in place when i bought the cars