talizman

iTrader: (1)

tiggers, I don't think i was going overboard, its just that I feel very strongly about this type of incident, for personal reasons, which I do not intend to go into.

I stressed that I meant no offence, and was merely voicing my opinion. This isn't directed at TurboKitty, I would say the same to anyone...

And in answer to your point, I don't think that TK hitting the guy will have any effect on his future behaviour, except maybe making him EVEN more confrontational and pi$$ed off.

Lastly, I don't really see how slowing down to 5mph can possibly be viewed as a positive move, no matter what shade of rose your glasses are.
Like you said, antagonistic, and nothing else.

I just thank god that this guy wasn't another Kenneth Noye!

TurboKitty

So I am supposed to allow someone to intimidate me on the off-chance that I might get hurt? Remember that the bloke involved got out of his car first, so I had a chance to assess the situation.

If you really do think I should have ignored him tailgating me, and reversed, or gone around him when he blocked the road ahead of me, I'd ask do you always advise giving in to bullies? Because that's what he was. In my opinion he was a coward and I agree with tiggers that he'll think twice about doing the same again in future.

Of course, you may have a good reason to see this the way that you do, but since you aren't willing to go into it here, we can't really judge. Calling me 'extremely stupid' and saying I need 'qualified help' don't exactly make me feel inclined to want to see it from your point of view. Do you usually say these sorts of things when you are trying not to be personal?

And as for your 'hope that I don't make a habit of this', this incident happened in January last year. I'd been driving for more than 11 years at that point and it was the first such situation. There have been none since. I do realise the risk I took but I make no apology for my actions that day.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

TurboKitty,

If I have offended you with my comments then please accept my sincere apologies.

But in answer to your question...

"Am I supposed to allow someone to intimidate me on the off-chance that I might get hurt?"

Call me a *****, but yes.

You say you "assessed" the situation before getting out of your car? I'm pretty sure that the victims of "road rage killers" over the years made their "assessment" too. Now they are dead.

Giving into bullies? You make it sound as if you did something so brave and upstanding, when in fact it was risky and stupid at best.

And I disagree with your point about him not doing something like it again. Do you honestly think that you overwhelmed him so much that he will NEVER get into a road rage confrontation again?
For this guy to get so worked up at you antagonising and provoking him, and for him to react the way he did, I don't think this was a spur of the moment thing. He obviously has a problem, and I don't think your smack cured him. I may be wrong.

I am generalising when I say that any person who gets out of the car to confront an unknown entity (cos thats what he was) must be crazy. Hence the 'help' comment. I'd never be mad enough to do what you did, and I have numerous attributes in my favour which would probably cause me to come out on top most times......

Not to mention, if he was smart enough to report you to the police, YOU would have got done. Not him. There were no independent witnesses. He claims you assaulted him, AND he had a broken nose to corroborate his allegation. Conviction for GBH sound appealing? I think not.

Take care.

TurboKitty

Do you really think it likely, though, that a man is going to go to the police and say a woman hit him and broke his nose? Especially in this case where he evidently has such an ego that he thinks it's acceptable to shove a woman around for driving slower than he wanted to go? It's true there were no witnesses to his behaviour, but the other side of that is that there was nobody to back-up his claim either, if he had reported me, and remember, in pushing me, he assaulted me first. Had the police been interested at all, (and I refer you to numerous threads on here to indicate that it's not likely - the stolen handbag one as an example), they'd have been hard pushed to find any evidence to support his claim.

It is your choice not to get involved in a situation like this, and I respect that, but I reacted differently, and although I do realise the risk, I still think I was justified in hitting a man who was physically shoving me across the road. I find your apparent stance that I deserved it because I was driving slowly somewhat laughable, to be honest.

Why was it worse for me to antagonise him by driving slowly than it was for him to attempt to intimidate me by driving in my boot in the first place?

In my opinion, one of the reasons that this country is going to pot is that normal law-abiding people are afraid to stand up for their rights with the ******* because they might get hurt. A certain cross-section of society seem to think that they can act exactly as they want when, in truth, the majority are cowardly little hooligans. If more of them realised that people will not just back down and give in, maybe the situation would not be so bad. Backing down is rarely the right thing to do with bullies.

I'd never disrespect anyone for not getting out of their car in a situation such as this, especially a lone woman, but nor would I belittle anyone's right to defend themselves and their property.

tiggers

Turbokitty,

You are so right about people not standing up for themselves being a problem with this country. I am with you all the way on this one and agree with your post entirely.

Talizman,

The reason I said you were going overboard is that some of your comments were downright insulting and personal towards TK. I accept you may have your reasons for having strong feelings, but in this case you've got to accept that there are people out there who are prepared to take the 'risk' and stand up and be counted- you however are not and that is fine - people are different - accept it.

Regards,

tiggers.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

TurboKitty,

Where do I start?

You ask whether a man would go to the police and report you for hitting him? Let me tell you that it happens every day in life. Fact. You can't argue with the stark reality that they do, all the time!

Again with all due respect, you appear to have no knowledge of Law or Criminal Procedure, so I don't intend to sound condescending, but in your incident there is more that sufficient evidence to convict you of GBH or serious assault, depending on where this took place. (England or Scotland)
For a conviciton in a criminal court, you must prove "beyond all reasonable doubt" that the accused person committed the offence libelled.
In your case there is more than sufficient evidence, in that you are alleged to have assaulted him (by him). You can be placed at the scene of the alleged offence, and the guy has (serious)injuries corroborating his allegation of assault.
Hard pushed to find any evidence you say????
Allegation + injuries = Sufficient evidence for a conviction.

He doesn't need anybody to back up his claim, there are other pieces of circumstancial evidence which will see you convicted. Fact. I'm not trying to worry you, I'm simply stating how it is.

Whether the police would be interested or not is completely irrelevant, and you are more than aware that this is a completely different argument therefore I'm going to resist the temptation to digress to this topic. Subject closed.

Furthermore, for you to suggest that "my stance" is that you "deserved it" (I'm unsure what "it" is) is completely out of order!
I never said, nor did I infer anything of the sort, and I'd be obliged if you would care to retract that comment. Reply please?
Never would I ever say that a person caught up in a confrontation would "deserve it"! If you are going to accuse me and/or quote me, at least get it right please.

Lastly, I feel you are being a bit of a drama queen, suggesting that you "had to defend your property!"
Thats ridiculous, the nutter wanted to get past you and you thought you would be stubborn and wind him up!
Where does defending property come into it????
You are being ridiculous!
Are you trying to convice yourself or me that you were being courageous and galant, "defending your property" when what you were actaully doing was lowering yourself to his level, which you did a tremendous job of I might add.

I can understand that you must defend your behaviour because you took a certain course of action, and you must stick to your guns, but at least have a decent argument for justifying your stupid and risky actions, and not barely that you were defending your property, or standing up to bullies, which are both utter nonsense!!!

Let me ask you, what if things didn't pan out the way they did, I don't know what age you are, but if you care about those close to you (husband/boyfriend/parents/children) then you'll think twice before doing it again. Imagine if your actions had caused a family member to have to oraganise a funeral? God forbid.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Tiggers,

What is "overboard"?

Because I have strong feelings about these issues, I am "overboard"?

I am "insulting"?

Because I say that in my opinion, her behaviour (not her) was stupid and risky, I am insulting.

I didn't come on here saying, TK, you are a **** and a ****.

I simply said that her behaviour was extremely stupid.

Insulting? Maybe, in your eyes, not in mine.

I know when I cross the line, and I am big a man enough to admit it, if and when I do.

Thank you.

tiggers

Talizman,

I'll tell you why I think you're going overboard.

1) Telling TK that you think she is extremely stupid and needs help as well as all the other little insulting jibes (not so much what you say as how you say it) in relation to what was a minor incident (note I am saying what the incident as rather than could have been).

2) Writing reams of text on police, GBH, funerals etc. etc. over an incident that developed in to none of these. Fair enough mention this once, but don't keep on and on about it. TK is not stupid and I'm sure she got it the first time.

3) Suggesting that everyone should always walk away every time. If that attitude is allowed to prevail then the world will be run by bullies as that is what this guy is/was. He may have learnt his lesson - he may not, but he sure as hell isn't going to be any less encoraged to do it each time someone gives in and he "wins".

Lastly I will say that I do understand that you have good reason for your stance and I'm not asking you to change it - just back off a little on those of us who have a different opinion. In my experience (which I'm also not going to go into) you can teach bullies a lesson - I know as on one occasion I did just that - it was hard and I was scared, but I'd do it again tomorrow.

Regards,

tiggers.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Tiggers,

If you care to read above, you will see that I tried to close the subject some 12 posts ago.

I am merely replying to TurboKitty's and your comments.

With regards to point 2, I "wrote reams" because TK, by her comments, would appear to think that she is immune from geting into bother over her actions due to lack of eveidence. I was merely warning her of possible outcomes due to her behaviour, and she argued that she wouldn't get into trouble so I "wrote reams" to convince her that this was not the case, citing facts in my argument.

Point 3 is your opinion, and I have mine. Leave it at that.
I'm not going to change my mind and turn into a confrontational type, getting out of the car at every opportunity to face up to bullies, putting myself in the line of danger! For what? No thanks.

Anyway, "Bully" is a very broad term, and not one that I would necessarily associate with this...

This guy was an aggressive driver with a road rage problem. Bully? I don't see it.

It's just a good opportunity to band terms like "bully" around to make ones actions seem all the more galant and just!

P.S. Just to clarify, I don't know TurboKitty, and I don't know if you do, therefore I couldn't tell you whether she is "stupid" or a "rocket scientist". I never called "her" stupid. I called her actions "stupid". There is a distinct difference and you continue to accuse me of directing personal insults at a person whom I have never met.

If you can't comprehend my comments and see quite clearly that I always refer to her "risky actions" or "stupid behaviour" and not direct name calling or insults then please don't accuse me of being insulting.

Please read my posts more clearly and if your require clarifcation on my terminology then please feel free to contact me.

Take care

Talizman

[Edited by talizman - 6/29/2003 11:09:29 AM]

tiggers

Talizman,

Yes I see you tried to close the subject, but only after you had had your say in, I might add, a most patronising way (IN MY OPINION - just so you get it).

I have said all along that we are entitled to our differing opinions (maybe it is YOU who needs to read MY posts - hmmmm) and I am quite happy about that, but I do take issue with the way you convey your opinion.

To split hairs here is what YOU wrote re. TK:-

"I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I think you were extremely stupid"

Maybe if you had said her actions at that time were completely stupid it would have been better - you think????

and ...

"Besides, the type of person you should really be discussing your problem with, has qualifications that I don't......"

No mention of YOUR OPINION - just stated as fact.

In MY OPINION the above comments and the way in which you have written much of your response is at best patronising and at worst insulting - sorry , but that's the way I see it (I think TK may also have found your comments to be in a similar light).

One more point - if you really think that a guy who deliberately scares a woman while driving, pulls in front of her forcing her to stop and then leaps out of the car to give her a hard time is not a bully I really do (IN MY OPINION) think it is you who needs the professional help.

Finally on the subject of reading the posts and all your drivel about requiring clarification etc. which is clearly designed to be inflammatory you may as well give up with me on that one. I know I have a reasonable command of the English language and the ability to "read between the lines" - it is water off a duck's back. Despite the words themselves you know the sentiment you are conveying in your posts and so do I so please stop trying to be clever as it doesn't become you (IN MY OPINION).

Regards,

tiggers.

Rusty Festa

Corner

TurboKitty

talizman,

Have you actually read what you wrote?

They are quite clearly a comments on me, not my behaviour, so the further comments

and

do not quite ring true.

As for there being enough evidence to convict me, how would it be possible to place me at the scene without me admitting I was there? His word against mine, I'd say. And I'd love to know how he'd explain how both he and I ended up out of our cars so I could hit him in the first place. I think the majority of police are bright enough to see through any story he could concoct.

I did not stop to consider potential police involvement before hitting this bloke, but if I had, I would have reached the same conclusion that I reached after I'd done it. I didn't think it likely that he would go to the police, and I didn't think they'd be interested if he did. As it happens, I was right.

Even if he had made a complaint, and I had admitted I was at the scene, I was acting in self-defence. I gave him two warnings to stop shoving me and then took sufficient action to make him stop. I did nothing after he had stopped. I was left with bruises from being shoved about, so he wasn't the only one showing signs of having been assaulted. I would not say I used anything beyond reasonable force, and as a woman, being attacked by a man, I would be very surprised if any sort of action, let alone a conviction resulted. If you know of any cases of convictions resulting from this sort of incident, I'd be interested to know, but please stick to specifics. I think we've all heard quite enough about what could have happened.

I understand your point that this could have turned out badly, but it didn't, so I really can't see why you seem intent on repeating yourself until I agree with you. I respect your view, but I don't agree with you.

As for trying to end this, I'd say that posting that I need 'qualified help' was not really a very serious attempt. If you really want to end it, accept that I don't agree with you, and that I am not the only one, and let it drop; preferably without further personal comments. You'll note that although I could call you a *****, I haven't. Perhaps it would have been nice if you'd extended me the same courtesy. I'd agree with tiggers that your posts have been insulting.

Your request that I retract my comment that your posts seem to imply I deserved to be involved in a road rage attack because I slowed down is interesting. I did not mean offence by it, but it is the way I am reading your posts. Whether or not you mean it that way, using the words antagonistic, stubborn and commenting I was trying to wind him up in every post, and justifying his extremely aggressive tailgating, light-flashing and horn-blowing with the comment that he "only wanted to get past" rather makes it difficult to see it any other way. Still, if it offended you, then please accept this was not the intention.

Oh, and I think that someone very aggressively tailgating me is a threat to my property, and to me. If that makes me a "drama queen", (oh look, another personal insult), in your eyes, so be it.


tiggers, thanks for the support.

TurboKitty

Tiggers, just seen your latest post. Very well put and I am in total agreement. I too see his posts as antagonistic, insulting and patronising.

It's possible he may not have meant what he said in quite the way he said it, but the fact remains that, if he didn't mean to be insulting and patronising, his comments have been poorly expressed. Of course, it's easier to accuse you of having misunderstood than to actually accept that his posts were perhaps not as well written as he seems to believe.

tiggers

Turbokitty,

Regarding the support - you're welcome.

Like you I respect Talizman's point of view, I just don't like the way he puts it forward. If both you and I get the same feeling from his posts then just maybe it is he who should be re-reading the thread - hmmmm!

Anyway keep your chin up and BTW what does yur car look like - just in case I drive too close an' all - hehehe - just kidding!!

Regards,

tiggers.

TurboKitty

I'm easily recognisable - RB5 with a cow on the parcel shelf. So beware, no tailgating cows in RB5s.

scoobynutta555

Prob not the best idea to stick a nose into this post as feelings seem to run high!

But I feel that basically I agree with Talizman on a few key points before all the fighting started.

Given that the other driver that was tailgaiting you was a bully and an idiot, I do feel that (turbokitty)you made the situation worse by antagonising him more by your actions, and breaking his nose is just asking for more trouble ie.an assault conviction, or you could have ended up in a ditch with no pulse.

Its difficult for anyone to comment on this as they werent there and we dont know the other side of the story.

This will be my only post on the matter as im not getting into the 'pi55ing' competition this thread seems to have developed into

TurboKitty

You make it sound like I hit him for no reason! You did get the bit where he was shoving me about hard enough to leave bruises, right?

talizman

iTrader: (1)

TurboKitty, between your comments and Tiggers, I really don't know where to start. (again)

I think too many people have forgotten that I am on your side.

All throughout, I have been expressing my concerns at your apparent lack of regard for your own safety, and that worries me.

With regards to being insulting etc, please rest assured that my comments are not made in a personal manner, as I don't know you, nor do I know anything about you other than your involvement in your incident. My comments about stupidity, stubborness etc etc were ALL relating to your actions. After all, they are what this entire thread is about!

Perhaps I should stress each time that my opinion, or comments are relating to your actions, and not your person. I honestly thought that due to the fact that we are all adults here, that I wouldn't require to spell it out each time. Tiggers obviously has an excellent command of the English language, so I thought that he and everyone would realise that everything I say, is about WHAT YOU DID. Not what type of person you are.

The professional help comment.......

Lets look at a hypothetical situation, not you.
A lone female driver becomes involved in a road rage type altercation with an apparent nutter, and a completely unknown entity. In my opinion, if the lone female starts to antagonise this nutter, and wind them up by driving at 5mph (thats what it is after all) in an obvious attempt to annoy them, (cos that why people do that) and then when apparently cornered, they think it is sensible to get out of their car, at a time when lots of owners drive around with their doors locked, and square up to the nutter with again, NO regard for their well being, then I think that this person themself has an issue which need addressed before it gets them into serious trouble.
I personally, (MY opinion) would call this type of person "mad" for what they were doing, as would most folk think she was "crazy" for getting out and squaring up to a nutter like this.
This founded the basis for my comment, and if it was interpreted wrongly, then I apologise again.

Too many people here seem to think that I have it in for TK or in fact that I am being out of order when what I am really doing is expressing my freedom of speech.

With regards to your evidence/conviction comments, the Fact is, that there is more than sufficient evidence to convict you. End of story. Ask anyone with legal experience and they will tell you the same.

With regards to your allegation that he assaulted you. It has taken till the 3rd page of this thread to find out that he "marked" or "bruised" you as a result of pushing you?

If you were indeed marked, then this would suggest to me that you were struck or punched, as opposed to "pushed". I haven't seen too many bruises as result of "pushes" before, but if you say he pushed you and bruised you then I am not going to call you a liar.

You say that the way you are reading my posts, gives you the impression that I think you deserved it.
That is only one thing...Out of order!
Just because I say that you "antagonised" him, or that you were "trying to wind him up" does not for one minute infer that I think you deserved it. (Does the girl wearing the short skirt, flirting with the guy deserve to be raped???? I think NOT, but you might suggest that I think she does?????)
You hit the nail right on the head when you said "the way I am reading your posts". Try reading them the way they are written.... I express my views in plain english with honest and frank opinions.
Perhaps I don't have quite as excellent a command of the english language as your friend Tiggers, but in no way do my posts give the impression that I think you deserve it!! The opposite!

As for the drama queen comment.... Another personal insult?? Jeez. Give me a break!
You are acting like the little shrinking violet, who is offended and hurt by someone saying you were acting like a drama queen. Sorry, but I don't buy this cr@p.
You were the one squaring up and fighting with a strange guy in the street (or wherever it happened) so don't tell me that a dramam queen offended you so much! Come on! You must be thicker skinned than that! Insult! God. Its all getting pretty petty.

My opinions are, and always have been that I dissaprove of what you did, you put yourself at extreme risk, showed NO regard for your safety, as well as at risk of getting into trouble with the police. My views remain the same, and I am not trying to convince you that they are correct. They are my opinion, and as I stated before, if someone close to me did what you did, I would go berzerk at THEM.

tiggers

Turbokitty,

Is it just me or do some people not want to read all of the posts in here - seems to me they read two lines and then start making ill informed comments.

Mind you that happens all over this board and to think I got accused of not reading/comprehending some posts earlier - shock horror!

Take care,

tiggers.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Tiggers,

If you care to read my posts, you will see that each comment made is in response to a specific comment made previously by another poster.

It'd be a bit hard to reply to each point in the post without reading the entire post, don't you agree?

But maybe I'm not reading the entire posts like you suggest,
now, where is my crystal ball?



[Edited by talizman - 6/29/2003 6:43:13 PM]

TurboKitty

talizman,

Whether or not he had bruised me, in physically pushing me he was still guilty of assault. As it happens, he initially began shoving me, hard, with his fingers splayed and pointed, leaving me with finger mark bruises on my upper chest. A couple directly over my collarbone were particularly prominent, and I also had a bruise on one of my arms from where he grabbed hold of me at one point. I didn't mention it because I didn't feel the fact he bruised me was relevant. As I said, pushing me was still assault, regardless of whether he'd left marks. There are also other things I haven't mentioned here, because to tell the full story would take quite some time. I have put what I see as the salient facts, nothing more.

As it happens, I have told this story to several friends who are police officers, and in their opinion I was defending myself, and any sort of prosecution, never mind conviction, would be unlikely.

As for suggesting that I read your posts the way they are written, maybe you need to realise that they possibly aren't as clear as you believe and that you maybe need to adjust your writing style. It's easy to claim that your comments have always been about my behaviour, and that may well have been your intention, but as my quotes further up this page show, that's not what you actually said. You know what you mean, but surely my reaction and tigger's reaction to what you have written shows that perhaps others are not interpreting what you have written as you intended. No offence, but IMO that's a failure of the writing, not the reader.

I appreciate that you intended to express concern because I placed myself in a dangerous situation, but it was my choice to make. As for going mental at anyone you cared about who'd done such a thing, as I pointed out, my mother did just that.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

TurboKitty, can you come into ScoobyNet chat please?

By the way, Yes, I know what I said, but we both knew what it meant. Why split hairs?

[Edited by talizman - 6/29/2003 7:08:36 PM]

[Edited by talizman - 6/29/2003 7:12:14 PM]

TurboKitty

I'll be right in.

And actually, I didn't know what you meant. I took you at face value, which, as I don't know you, is all I can do.

[Edited by TurboKitty - 6/29/2003 7:26:49 PM]

tiggers

talizman,

If the cap fits ....

Actually my last post was aimed at people other than you and was posted at the same time as your last diatribe on the matter.

For the record that post was excellent and I have no problem with anything you said in it as you seem to have dropped the patronising tone thankfully.

Seriously I don't want to end up in a slanging match with you and that was never my aim - I have always said that you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine - I think we'd best leave it at that now.

Regards,

tiggers.

Redkop

Emma, reading your first post on this thread - you actually admit that you tailgate.

Therefore, are you not guilty yourself of 'intimidating' drivers and annoying them, yet you chose to take the action of slowing down to 5mph when you were in same situ.

What would you do then, if someone in front of you did exactly the same thing as you did? How irate would you be, when you actively invite road-rage upon yourself by tailgating, even if you ‘are significantly better now you are aware you do it’

I personally don't tailgate, for the simple reason, I don't want stonechips on my car

south-star

I personally don't tailgate, for the simple reason, I don't want stonechips on my car

Also i'm sure at your age your reflexes ain't what they used to be......

(just kidding btw)....

Redkop

I hope you were!! My reflexes are fine thank you very much, if I doubted them I wouldn't track my car, would I????

TurboKitty

Yes, I have been known to tailgate, but it wasn't an intentional effort to intimidate and mostly I wasn't consciously aware I was doing it. Now I am aware I do it, I've all but stopped.

In answer to your question, if someone slowed right down in front of me, I'd realise they were unhappy with my proximity and I'd back off. I'd understand why they'd slowed down; I certainly wouldn't speed past them at the first opportunity, swing my car across the road, blocking their path and get out of the car and jump up and down in the road!

I am often amazed by some of the things I witness on the roads, and at times I get frustrated, but it's rare for me to get angry, so I'd say the chances of me having a fit of road rage are very slight.

Spoon

Anyway, my nose is much better now, thankyou!

You never did tell me where you bought that cow from either, after I tried to get you to stop. Still, I managed to find one on the internet, my little girl was so pleased.

I'm also very glad I could help to keep that swarm of bees off you and I bear no malice for you accidentally catching me in the face, it must have been terrifying for you.

Keep safe.

TurboKitty

Looney! LOL!