Gordo

oh, and....

CamK - the total percentage tax take from individuals is remarkably simlar across the European developed nations. You need to compare like with like.

i.e. 48% top rate in Germany does not compare to the 40% in the UK because of NI (employee and employer), VAT, stamp duty, levies on beer, **** and petrol, the levels at which the tax rates kick in, corporation tax (relevant to everyone not least because of your pension funds investing in quoted stocks).

The last figures I saw suggested a an average 50-60% tax take per pound of employee earnings. scary, huh?

G

Stevie

Re the German redundancy, that has nothing to do with tax rates and everything to do with exemptions.

If you compare to the UK, it is not ideal, but there is bound to be another country where the redundancy taxation situation is worse than Germany.

wannabeScooby

I'm not too bothered what the tax rate blah blah blah is in Germany (or anywhere else for that matter). I live in England... thats all I care about. Taxes are too much for too little.

Chip

Tiggers,
Maggie did to this country what needed doing.
This might have hurt a few people along the way but the UK could not carry on the way it had been with strikes every week, 10 men for 1 man job etc.

Yes she shut the coal industry down but even that was with a massive helping hand from that idiot Scargill.

People were allowed to buy their council houses, people bought shares,taxes came down as eventually did unemployment.

The country got back on its feet.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and you cannot please all of the people all of the time as Blair always tries to do.
Shewsalsoan honest politician who times werre going to be hard before they were and won the vote as well.

Its just a pity that men like Tony Blair will never come anywhere close to her leadership.

Chip.

tiggers

Gordo,

Re. the poll tax - I agree with you that it was not necesarily the idea was at fault, but the execution of that idea. 'Everyone must pay the same except some must pay more than others' was basically what it boiled down to and it was an administrative nightmare. In fact it belied belief how they could make such a mess of a simple idea.

Regarding lending rates you're not quite correct as at the time we were paying a mortgage rate of 15.4% the rest of Europe had a rate around half of ours - the reason - our economy was in a complete mess when theirs wasn't - hmmm!

Chip,

Hurt a FEW people, taxes came down (while lending rates went up), unemployment eventually came down (when they finally learned how to cook the figures), country got back on it's feet (if you were one of the lucky ones). I personally hope Tony Blair never gets anywhere near her level of leadership as that would be frightening. BTW what fuel are you using in your spaceship? ;-)

Regards,

tiggers.

Chip

Tiggers,
See your from up North. Do you lot still keep whippets.

As for my fuel Ive moved on in life,knocked off my chimney and now use Nuclear power in my spaceship.

Chip.

tiggers

No whippets mate, as an ex soft Southern nancy boy who's only been here 18 years I've got another 32 to go before I'm accepted and allowed to do "northern things" like keep whippets, eat dripping and wear a flat cap.

Cheers,

tiggers.

wannabeScooby

Camk... the fact that I hate getting a wage slip and seeing what I could have earnt against what I actually did earn! I'm a student at the moment on a placement year! I'm trying to pay off my debts but it aint going to happen! Its just me having a moan... at the end of the day, who wouldnt want 100% of all their money in their pockets instead of somewhere else? Just that I don't see any of the tax we all pay (road tax, whatever tax it is) going to any good use. Don't get me started on the police... we pay for them to sit in lay-bys to stop us so they can give us tickets for going 8mph over the speed limit! GRRRR! Get my point? I could go on forever, but what's the point!

Welshman

Tiggers,

I sort of agree with your simplistic argument r.e.Wales (although some may sence a rascist overtone). However Wales has contributed a lot to the UK economy over the years. In the Industrial age we produced Steel, Coal and associated Heavy Engineering. Post Maggie we have embraced foriegn investment Sony, Panasonic etc.
Using your argument, what have the third world countries contributed to our little island ??? Not a lot. Yet this Government is intent on sending higher rate taxpayers well earned dosh to them. The Tories did the same, at least we gained some trade for the cash though.
On the "greed is good" question, can anyone say they don't want more than they've got ?. If so how come so much is spent on the Lotto every week?

tiggers

Welshman,

Sorry I didn't mean to pick on Wales - now I see your username and location I realise it may have been a bit insensitive of me ;-)

Being serious I am just using it as an example and I'm not being racist - genuine apologies if you felt that.

I think on the "greed is good" thing the bit of it I don't like is the way some people (and by that I don't mean you necessarily - as I don't know you so can't comment) are happy to see other people struggle as long as they themselves beneift. The whole "yuppie" thing in the 80's made it almost fashionable to brag about how much money one person and made from other's misfortune.

Still I'm way off topic so I think I'd better get back in my box.

Cheers,

tiggers.

Chip

Tiggers,
Lending rates went up to bring inflation down.

As for Tony B'liar then he couldnt get anywhere near her level of leadership if he wanted to.Ever.

Chip.

tiggers

Chip,

And why was it high in the first place??????

Before you answer bear in mind that this was 8 years into Maggie's reign.

tiggers.

Chip

Why was inflation high you ask. Probably because of the unions demanding 20% pay rises for all the workers.Remember in those days facories were on strike more often than not due to the high demands of the unions.

Maggie also rectified this as well by curbing the unions power .

Chip.

south-star

It was high because cuts in direct tax fuelled a consumer boom which put up prices and it had to be damped down by making money more expensive ie interest rate rises.

The Tory years....The golden age that never was.

Chip

And your opinion of the Labour years please gentlemen is......

And please dont tell me they've had to put things right after 18 years of the Tories as thats running a little thin now.

Wh dont we concentrate on the important things like:

Taxes.........Up under Labour
NHS...........Worse under Labour
Crime.........Up under Labour
Education standards...Down under Labour
Education results....Up but fiddled under Labour
Council Tax....Double under Labour
To name just a few.

Over to you Northerners then.

If no reply I'll just take it yor both out with your whippets.

Chip.

stephen emery

and whats wrong with whippets

Me happy paying more tax.

if you don't want to pay more dont earn as much

steve

Scooby96

boot out all the bogus asylum seekers, get people on the dole doing stuff for the goverment to earn their dole money (ie road sweeping, refuse collection and any other **** job that needs doing). Introduce the chain-gang idea. Stop Brussels sticking their bloody beaks into our business. Stop the MP's taking the **** with their expenses. Tax everyone the same %, give back tax relief to private healthcare - SCOOBY96 FOR PM?

south-star

NHS...........Worse under Labour

Chip........tbh i think your just rattling off stuff you read in the Sun.
Please back up the above statemnt.

Chip

South Star,
Unfortunately for me I have spent quite a bit of my time in and out of hospital during the last 7 years. In fact I have had 6 ops in this time.

I have therefore seen and heard from all types of NHS employee what has been happeneing to the NHS in the last few years. I have not spoken to any that I recall would say the service has improved under labour in fact the general consensus has been that things have got worse.In some cases a lot worse.

Oh, and by the way , NO I do not read the Sun.

Chip.

ADP

I have to say the amount I get taxed annoys me. I do pay 40% tax though I dont earn a £100K salary or anything. But its not just income tax.

Take my council tax for example, I pay £100 a month in council tax, and Im in a low ish band. However, some poor sods in my area pay way over twice that much - so do they have bigger wheely bins, call the police more often, drop more litter? er no they dont, infact chances are they are actually less burden on the council and the police than those in the bottom bracket, however they pay more for the privelage. as far as Im concerned its taxing, because they bl0ddy well can and I fail to see the justification.

Chip

Yep,
Maggie did close all the mines down. With a big helping hand of course from Mr Scargill.Whatever happened to him anyway. Crawled back under his stone in defeat I suspect.

I didnt state that Maggie had inherited from the previous Labour rule.I stated she put right what was wrong with the country ie union power. This was not achieved overnight and took a long time but it needed doing.

Interest rates and economys are not down to one country alone anyway but during the 80s there was a world recession going on causing high rates.

I notice you will not answer my other points,I can only assume this is because you know I am right.

Anyway Im off to buy my Times now. Shall I pick up a Mirror for you while Im there.

Chip.

tiggers

Chip,

I am more than happy to answer your points as my previous post clearly stated - I just don't see that my writing several paragraphs of text is going to do any good as you've already made up your mind about how great life was under Maggie and how bad it is now and I don't think anything I say will change your mind.

For now I will pull you up on one thing though. You rattle off the old crap about world recession in the 80's etc. and up to a point it's true some other country's economies weren't great.

However explain this to to me. Inflation and lending rates in the UK were on average double those of the rest of Europe in the late 80's - ten years after Maggie came to power. We've already established it wasn't the union pay demands so what was the cause? - hey maybe our world recession was worse than theirs eh?

Regards,

tiggers.

Welshman

Tiggers,

A snippet from a speach that may amuse you.
"Put your savings in a pension fund or a life insurance company and a Labour government would force them to invest the money in their own socialist schemes. If you put your money in a sock they'd probably tax socks."

Given what has been robbed fron the pensoin funds ( £ 5billion per year) and the increase in total tax take, I think the author of this piece showed considerale foresight.

The speach was made by Maggie Thatcher in May 1983.


Cheers

WM

Chip

Tiggers,
Current interest rates are:

USA 1.2%
Euro 2.0%
UK 3.75%

Bit of a difference there isnt there.
Why is this then? The CBI have been calling for a rate cut for 18 months. In the meantime Britain is losing 1000's of manufacturing jobs.

Chip.

camk

I think you'll find the interest rate in the UK is set not by the Government but by the Bank of England.....never let the facts get in the way of a good story

Chip

Maybe so...but who sets the inflation target that the bank is told to achieve. The government.

Just another way that Blair can say "dont blame me" if rates have to go up.

Chip.

camk

Inflation and growth targets are set by the EU. Not exact numbers but bandings. However its true that the UK does not at this time need to adhere due to it being out of the Euro, however to be allowed in they need to be shown to adhere. So defaco is that Europe sets inflation and growth targets for all EU members.

What I find really interesting is a Tory and a Labour supporter arguing whne in reality the difference between the Tony Blair government and that of John Major are in fact only slight. When Margaret Thatcher took over in 1979 the UK was in a terrible state. Its alleged that Airey Nieve had already arranged a military coup if Labour were again voted in. Remember the rubbish on the streets, blackouts, bodies piling up due to strikes by grave diggers.
However like most social reactions the Tory party of the time swung too far to the right. Smashing the miners was a Political act , which related nothing to the actual financial position of the mines and their related communities.
I'm no Labour fan but I see 'some' positives from the current Government, I'm however really against the PFI stuff thats being pushed but managing and implementing change on a national scale is an unimaginably(for me) difficult task.

[Edited by camk - 7/6/2003 3:11:02 PM]

Chip

These positives being?

Chip.

camk

Increased allowances for OAP's, free travel for OAP's. Removal of the threat over OAP's homes if they are taken into care.

More flexible approach(not as successful as I imagined) to getting people treated in hospital. Moving patients around, reducing time spent in hospitals,more outpatient ops.

Continued reduction in unemployment.

Re-Privatisation of the railways, what a mess that is/was.

Scottish/Welsh Parliment/Assembly, regional self determination.

Armed forces rationalisation.

AllanB

I don't mind paying more tax but only for an improvement in services and quality of living for everyone. Under this government sevices where I live have collapsed to an all time low. Out two local hospitals are now the two lowest rated in the country. Our roads have more holes than a road in the Gaza strip, services are a shambles and the attitude of society is taking a worrying utrn for the worst.

I've not seen Labour do anything to alleviate the migration issues or are they going to use them as a scapegoat.

Couple of years back when the markets for IT was good I was paying more in tax per quarter than most of my colleguegs earned in a year and it really got me thinking how fortunate I ws but also where did that money go. From waht I can see Labour has introduced so many level s of red tape and pointless paperwork for most civil servants that this eats inot any available extra money. Also the civil servcie will not modernise. A mate of mine works for the local council andthey stil uses faxes as thier main way of communicating. For gods sake get out of the sotne gae and deluver quality services quciky and save money by implementing more efficient systmes to do so.

Only when this happens will we see a return for our increased taxation.

Can't wait to see this bunch of Labour loosers and liars booted out but who's going to replace them ?



AllanB