south-star

Help for the poorest pensioners.
More people staying in further education than ever before.

There's two.
(cant think of any more)

tiggers

Chip,

Interest rates around 1989/90

Euro 4.2%
UK 13.4%

Bit of a BIGGER difference there don't you think??????

Please stop trying to tell me Maggie was all good.

For instance think how you would have felt as a miner watching your livelihood removed over what was essentially a personal squabble. She never once stopped to think of the human consequences to her actions and if you really think this is a good thing then you must be a very self centred individual.

Regards,

tiggers.

Chip

Tiggs,
Next time you drive around a residential area take a look at the houses.On the roofs are little pots called chimneys. These were placed on these house to let out the smoke that was generated by burning a coal fire. In the 70s 80s people gradually changed from coal to gas, therefore the demand for coal dropped. dramatically.This was especially relevant in Wales where the type of coal was particularly good for coal fires.
So there we see that demand had dropped but the pits still wanted to keep producing.Why?
More people in education.Yeah well results are given to people these days arent they.
Another thing with coal is that it is a very dirty fuel to burn which in these times of environmental awareness I am sure would be unacceptable.
The same goes for gas-fired power stations which have been phased out and replaced with cleaner more efficient gas or oil fired plants.

As for maggie a lot of what she did was not good but as I said earlier you cant please all the people all the time.

As for the Welsh Asembly. A complete waste of time and money voted in by 23% of people in Wales.

Chip.

camk

Burning gas in Powerstation's to produce electricity is crazy as its the smallest reserve fuel we have in the UK, so much so that it was illegal till the Tories legalised it in the late 80's. Burn gas to make electricity when its likely we have only 30 years of reserves....mmmm...good idea. Please note Labour have done nothing to reverse this......

ProperCharlie

Chip - never mind the fact that we now import coal from south america and other places... I'm sure it really does make sense to transport lumps of rock over thousands of miles.

Gordo

haha - this thread is becoming entertainingly irrational.

CamK - what's this 30 year gas reserve thing you refer to? Most of our gas is piped in across the North Sea with a long term fixed price - from Russia or somewhere, from memory. Still not sustainable in the long term but there's no good way to produce energy. Coal is massively polluting as well as very inefficient if used domestically, gas is finite, wind and wave power are never going to get there (you might get to, say, 20% of UK requirements if Scotland is forced to become a big windmill, Europe hasn't got the wind or waves to create enough power for them). This leaves nuclear as the only sustainable alternative - good that the governement has banned all new nuclear power then, isn't it?

One other amusing comment I read in the thread as a benefit of our current government:
"More people staying in further education than ever before."

Hmm - so let me get this one straight. We're struggling to fund basic schools but we're happy to support loads of dossers on irrelevant courses (a degree in soap operas, anyone?). There is a limit to the number of people that should be in higher education - in extremis, if everyone had a degree, degrees would be massively devalued, and the state (i.e. you and I) would have spent a fortune funding them. It's a fact of life that if a child isn't bright enough to go into higher education, they shouldn't be there - no matter what 'targets' the state is trying to achieve.

rant over

Gordo

p.s. Bring back Maggie!!!!!!!

tiggers

Chip,

As above if we don't need coal then why do we import it.

To answer the question we need it for the coal fired power stations that generate the electricity that is in part used to heat people's homes in place of the coal (it wasn't just gas that replaced coal for domestic heating and hot water you know).

I'm sorry, but if you seriously think that one of the reasons most of the mines are now gone didn't ultimately come down to a personal vendeatta by Maggie against the industry then you are sadly mistaken. As I said before she didn't stop to consider the human cost, but then she never did.

Also if she was such a fine and upstanding citizen please tell me how she got to be a multi-millionaire when she wasn't born into a rich family and ostensibly only ever took an MP's salary. Hmmmm - more food for thought.

tiggers.

Stevie

Why is there a problem with Maggie having become a multi millionaire?

If people are prepared to pay her for something, or she earns money out of business, what is the problem? Has she ever said she did it on her PM's salary?

The Bank of England now sets interest rates so in Tony Tosspots eyes it is somebody else's fault.

And unemployment is reducing under Tony T because after a certain length of time you become a "job seeker" (or something like that) and are no longer "unemployed", hence the figures are better!!

tiggers

Maggie making money out of business investment and being PM - SLIGHT conflict of interests wouldn't you say?

As for interest rates when will you lot get it - interest rates under the current government have on average been significantly less than half what they were under the previous government. FACT!!!

tiggers.

Stevie

I agree, interest rates under this government have been the lowest ever, but they have'nt necessarily been so low BECAUSE of the current government.

Or maybe Maggie made a lot of money out of business because she was a very powerful, influential, motivating lady. She would have probably been far wealthier if she stuck her finger's up to politics and concentrated on business. She chose not too, and I for one doubt this country would have benefitted from another decade of strikes, union's etc, so am grateful she continued with politics.

And I doubt she was foolish enough to make money off the back of her being privy to confidential ministerial information, do you?

A leader is a leader, be it in politics, commerce or whatever.

And IMHO, she was indeed, a leader.

tiggers

So go on then - why have they been low and why have they remained low when William Hague warned us of impending economic doom consisting of high interest rates and inflation under a Labour government.

Are you kidding me?

tiggers.

[Edited by tiggers - 7/7/2003 1:24:42 PM]

TelBoy

tiggers - global recession. Even talk of deflation in the US recently.

Stevie

If William Hague said interest rates were to rise then that must have been right

Tiggers, you appear to have more information on Maggie's business dealings than any of us. You appear convinced of "innappropriate" dealings, and I for one cannot honestly state there were'nt any, as I simply dont know.

In view of your congruent nature in this matter, I can now only assume that Maggie was indeed, a bent politician.

It must be true, somebody said so

tiggers

Telboy,

Cheer me up why don't you? I split my business between the UK and the US to try and ride out problems when one of the economies takes a downturn - Oh well that'll teach me.

tiggers.

tiggers

Stevie,

Come come now old boy - don't get so flustered.

I am merely hinting at what could have been. ;-)

Many of her fellow party members have been in trouble over one scandal or another including several of them ending up in prison so is it so hard to accept that all may not have been above board in the previous government.

tiggers.

Stevie

Tiggers,

I totally agree about her fellow party members, and you could be right about her, I just dont know.

You just seemed convinced, that was all.

tiggers

Stevie,

Yes having read my previous posts I may have been a little heavy handed. Regarding the "Are you kidding" comment I was more meaning she could be foolish enough not that she necessarily did as like you I don't know either - should have explained myself better.

I think what irks me is that any politician (from any party) can have business interests which they could directly affect via government policy. I really do think that if you become an MP you should devote your time 100% to the job and leave your business interests behind - I know it's simplistic, but it is a serious point.

Anyway I really had better do some work now.

Regards,

tiggers.

Welshman

Tiggers,
For once I absolutely agree with you.
I thought that when the great and good (both sides) voted themselves the last but one enormous rise that they were getting " the going rate for the job". If £50+K for part time work is the going rate then I'll have a go.
This is the problem with most politicians. They actually think that the great unwashed (the poor sods who pay for their sheer incompetance)should feel grateful that they have chosen politics instead of an honest living. Probably because, if judged on their results, most would be looking for a job until Hell freezes over.
I see that they've failed on the ten year transport plan, again. Or is that the tories fault ?.

Cheers
WM

Gordo

Tiggers - wow, you really are anti Maggie, aren't you? The coal industry was not sustainable in the UK - fact. No government should subsidise loss making industries, Maggie sorted out the union-driven problem she inherited. Maggie was not all bad -under her stewardship standards of living in this country improved markedly - Major let down her legacy when he took over, terminally meddling with key policies. As for her making money, IMO a Prime Minister should come out of office if not already very wealthy, then in a position to do so. Maggie worked incredibly long hours and was very committed to UK plc. For info, however, it was the recently deceased Dennis Thatcher that made most of their personal wealth, being a very impressive company director and non-executive director in his own right.

Deliberately being even-handed on this, the Labour government has also significantly reduced the subsidies it hands out which is also the right thing to do(e.g. the motor industry). The issue is that Labour believes that taxation is the answer to everything - it isn't.

I have stated elsewhere that I believe our so-called democracy only works as long as there is regular change in who is in power - the longer they are in power (evidenced by both Maggie and Blair), the more they believe they can do whatever they like under the 'peoples mandate'.

Personally, I'll vote for the first party to admit they don't get a mandate beyond the key points in their manifesto, and promises referenda (with electronic voting) on all other key issues (I think they do this in one of the Nordic countries and apparently it works very well - the issue being that most people are too stupid to be trusted to vote on key issues - but are our politicians any cleverer?)

lol
Gordo

Chip

Tiggers
So are you saying that Mr Blair is poor then and is an honest politician.
If so then you really are more naive than I thought.

Then again maybe he puts away all the money he saves by getting freebie holidays.
And his Mrs gets all her clothes off the aussies free so theres another saving.

Chip.

Welshman

Tiggers,
You suggest that maybe Margaret used her position to further her business interests.
If she did then she wasn't as brazen as Ms Blair. Didn't she use 10 Downing Street to carry out some negotiations for one of the two flats she bought in Bristol ? I bet that's o.k. though. Like when they arranged for Little Blair to attend a different school to which his Primary school usually sends pupils.
Seems it's o.k. for them, but not for everyone.
Just one further point, you can't really take Patricia Hewitt seriously can you ? Even a staunch lefty would have to agree that she needs a good slap.

WM

Chip

This started as a thread about taxation but seems to have strayed away a little as is usual on scoobynet.

However here are some facts about taxation under labour.

This Labour Gov has increased taxes by more than £40 billion in this parliament alone to add to the extra £10 billion /year raised in the first term.

More tax will need to be raised to meet the current spending plans.

Here are a few of these taxes:

PENSIONS.
Rules changed on tax exemption to raise an additional £8 billion.This is the same asa 4% increase on income tax.This hits people when they retire but not when their working so most dont even notice it.

ADVANCE TAXATION
By demanding tax is paid in advance both by companies and individuals more is being taken out of the economy than ever before.In june 1999 the Gov received £20.1 billion. In July 1999 they received £30billion.

STAMP DUTY.
A tenfold increase in stamp duty has boosted revenues by 100s millions.

CAP GAINS TAX
Complex new rules and the death of PEPs has been highly beneficial to the Gov.

TAX ON DIVIDENDS
Pensioners ans low earners can no longer claim tax deducted at source.

MARRIED MANS ALLOWANCE & MIRAS SCRAPPED
Just two of the many tax releifs scrapped by Blair since coming to power.

COMPANY CAR TAX UP.
It is now a burden to receive a company car due to tax increases.

TOBACCO AND PETROL TAXES UP.
Labour has pushed the tax on these way beyond the levels of inflation.

And Finally

NATIONAL INSURANCE.
NI Increase- especially for the slightly better off-who pay an extra £200 per year approx £4 week.

You also have to think of things like council tax which has doubled since they came to power.This is due directly to the Government cutting the grants that were previously given to councils.

A few facts for you to ponder oop North.

Chip.

tiggers

OK OK OK

I can see I'm losing this one and agreed I have played my part in pulling this one off topic.

Tell you what you vote the Tories back in at the next election and I'll sit back and watch the mayhem. You think they can do a better job so be it, just don't say I didn't warn you.

Two final points from me:

1990 mortgage payment £694
2003 mortgage payment £235

That compensates for one hell of a lot of tax increases (even if all the increases you list are real, but that's another story).

Finally you say some of the taxes have increased under Labour by more than the rate of inflation - even if true this is not difficult when inflation is low, under the previous government it might have been a more daunting task don't you think?

Regards,

tiggers.

Welshman

Tiggers

Nice to see you have finally accepted the Conservative attitude to taxation. Can we rely on your vote at the next election ??

If you do need any further convincing then how about this.

When the rank and file lefties finally boot Blair out of office who is the most likey replacement ?. Won't be Brown, too anti union.
Maybe Blunkett but, and this is the worrying bit, one man still stands for all that is Labour.

Mr John Prescott, ugh, or if they go for the female vote it could be Patricia Hewitt. Just think of the damage that could be done to our once great country by this pair of loons.

WM

Chip

Tiggers,
Nice to see you seen the light at last.Those mortgage payments tho. On a private house or ex council that you bought under the Tories?.

Welshman,
Labour will probably get a ,black,one legged lesbian asylum seeker to lead them next time. Then all the minorities ould be happy.

They could then impose a new tax on anyone who wasnt in one of these groups.



Chip.

tiggers

Hi chaps,

Yep I've seen the light I'll be voting Slaphead at the next election - NOT!!! ;-)

The mortgage payments are on the same private house and are for the same amount as I have lived here for over 15 years. Being serious for a minute it is quite a difference you've got to admit.

I have enjoyed this thread as it's been good to have a good old political discussion without it getting too heated. Just a pity you've not seen the light yet ;-)

Regards,

tiggers.

Gordo

Tiggers - I'm soooo glad this thread is coming to an end - stop being distracted by interest rates! I'm stunned that you are happy to stand back and ignore all the blatant tax hikes the labour government has brought about because your mortgage bill is lower. THAT'S SOD ALL TO DO WITH THEM. There are a number of factors that drive interest rates, governments that have tried to influence it in the past have invariably failed - you'll keep banging on about the tories having double the interest rate of the Eurozone at one point - errr, what do you think we have at the moment?


Here's an interesting outline of interest rates and historic data - the key here being that it makes little difference which party is in power - they've both got history of low and high interest rates.

So, back on track, LABOUR = TAX AND SPEND.

No change there, then.

Diesel

Chip, you should stand for election mate! How can anyone vote Labour after what you just posted? They are just scammers with nothing much to show for it! Wonder when they will just pop down my house and just beat me 'round the head with a stick...

Chip

Has been a bit of fun hasnt it.
Poor old tigger though. He really cant see things as they really are can he. shame. Still maybe he'll see the light one day in the future.Doubt it tho as these people seem to be oblivious to whats really going on around them.

Gordo,
Ta for your support

Diesel,
Dont take the **** mate.

Chip.