Skittles

Errr... who reckons their Scoob is quicker than one of these beasts? DREAM ON MATE!!!

As someone pointed out above, fast cornering is not about 4WD vs RWD, its the whole balance of the car...

I am not a fan of Mercs, as I prefer their Bavarian brothers, but hats off to this car, would lurve to own one.

Cosworth427

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"Bravo Bravo!

So what would be quicker on a tight, wet, twisty, bumpy road??? And that's all I care about because most of my driving is on such roads."

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High performance Mercedes are precisely made for the road, comfort, safety over all out steering response. Hence softer spring and shock rates compared to most rival BMW's and Porsches. Even Imprezas are usually set for more comfort compared to EVOs.

Independent suspension into road cars is made precisely for "bumpy roads". Full wheel articulation if a wheel goes over anything that isn't flat, without changing it's own camber (or even toe) or affecting the geometry of the other wheel. On top of that, CL55's fitted with wider tires than those in a 911 Carerra, more laterial grip.

Again, it's all down to suspension setup and weight distribution, it's got *f-all* to do with where the wheels are driven.

Dracoro

Shock Horror! another car faster than scoob in the infamous twisties! Surely not! Get over it, the scoob is very good in the twisties but it certainly aint the best.

[Edited by Dracoro - 8/12/2003 11:32:48 AM]

akshay67

You seem to have skillfully driven around the question, much like an Impreza in the twisties! So the CL55 AMG will be faster than a scoob in the wet, bumpy twisties? Top Gear recently said that there is absolutely nothing that will keep up with an Evo or Impreza on Britains bumpy, wet B-roads - I guess they were talking about 'normal' cars!

Wild Mark

hey Saxo boy, this guy either could not be arsed or was toying with you, that car is VERY, VERY quick, up to 60 you might stand a chance, but after that he would storm ahead.

The reason I know, my brother in law leased one a couple of months ago, I have a MY03 PPP and it would chew me up and spit me out.

Mark

Skittles

"Top Gear recently said that there is absolutely nothing that will keep up with an Evo or Impreza on Britains bumpy, wet B-roads "

Good old Top Gear, the pinnacle of accurate and objective journalism... Incedentally, have you seen how many inconsistent comments there are between the programme and the magazine? Also, remember the great contradictory review of the Alfa and R32?

I think, just to start, an RS6, RS4, S4 etc will fit the bill.

Skittles

"Top Gear recently said that there is absolutely nothing that will keep up with an Evo or Impreza on Britains bumpy, wet B-roads "

Good old Top Gear, the pinnacle of accurate and objective journalism... Incedentally, have you seen how many inconsistent comments there are between the programme and the magazine? Also, remember the great contradictory review of the Alfa and R32?

Top Gear is entertainment, not factual journalism.

Anyway, back to the issue, I think, just to start, an RS6, RS4, S4 etc will fit the bill.

LG John

He was doing just that I said so in my first post

In fairness to akshay67 he does have the word 'wet' in there so he is very likely correct I for one wouldn't like to try and drive a car with that much torque in anger in the wet I am also a firm believer that on the sort of tight twisty roads we have in Scotland that few cars can touch an Impreza or EVO. The 4wd is an advantage to cornering if used correctly. I'm not talking about ***** a or b roads here were hot-hatches will easily keep up with a scooby I'm talking about REAL twisties (the sort of road that nobody in their right mind would race £100k of Merc down!)

akshay67

It's not just the fact that it doesn't have 4wd that it can't handle as well as an Impreza, it also lacks a spoiler which won't provide it with the down force to make it stick to the ground.

fatherpierre

Gotta be comedy posting from Akshay?!

Do you not think the massive extra weight of the merc would help?

bobfrog1

Tyres double the width of the Impreza's will help the CL55 too

Skittles

Err... Akshay, good spot. Those AMG engineers seem to have missed a trick by not sticking a big plastic spoiler to the back of their 2 tonne beast.

LG John

I might be snapping at what is clearly meant to be bait but the Impreza spoiler will not produce downforce! You need a wing for that and you need to be going pretty quick for it to do much. All the scooby's spoiler does is look good and 'difuse' (is that the right term) the air at the back of the car creating a little less drag (certainly not enough to outweight the horrifically brick like shape of the frong of the car )

ADL-ATR

Has the merc got any gizmos under it to generate any down force, as well as the computer controlled air suspension!

Mmmmm

Just drove an S55AMG today, drove a CL55 at the weekend much the same under the skin.

The cars are really quick the S55AMG will do 0-124 in 16.3s and the ton in around 10s.

But although the grip was very high and the suspension is computer controled and rolls the car into the corners, amazing, but it doesn't handle weight transfer so good, so probably a Scoob would actually get it through the twisties as long as there wasn't even any short straights

Put a holding deposit down on it






[Edited by Mmmmm - 8/13/2003 8:22:45 PM]

john banks

Wide tyres will probably make it more likely to do nasty things not nice things in the wet.

AWD will only assist with traction, and arguably detract from handling.

Peter Stevens' design for the P1 front air dam was claimed to save 3 BHP at 100 mph, but other than that Scooby spoilers just add weight and encouraged teenagers to nick them.

You can make an Impreza accelerate like or better than a CL55 AMG, but it will still be an Impreza, and the Merc will still be overall the far more competent car when you consider the multitude of things it is attempting to be all at once.

LG John

If I can ever talk Sipie into getting tek'd up you might revise that statement after you've been in the car with him The 4wd REALLY works to get you round the corners when you know how to drive........and have big ***** too Its not a word of a lie when I say he's taken me into countless corners where I was convinced I was going to die but the car didn't budge.......at all But he's short and looks like sting so I suppose he needs to have something going for him

slasha

John, so it should for £70,000 more.

LG John

It all counts I suppose

john banks

I don't buy it Saxo. Steady state cornering speed is unaffected by the number of driven wheels. Traction out of a bend is. Other than that the turbo motor dulls throttle response, compromises the balance of the car, and you don't have individual control of the front and back ends of the car. Turn in on the Impreza even with chassis mods is still a bit vague. They are not really delicate handling instruments, but an average handling car spruced up by good traction and ruined by a laggy engine My wifes Puma corners at least as quick in tight corners on completely standard suspension and tyres, and handling is IMHO far superior. The turn in with that is in a different class to the Impreza.

AndyF and T-uk are scarier into corners than I would believe possible. But they would be in any car.

[Edited by john banks - 8/13/2003 11:22:16 PM]

SiPie

Hey Saxo ya cheeky wee 5hite



I use my tantric powers to enable the car to corner quicker




[Edited by SiPie - 8/14/2003 9:34:59 AM]

ozzy

Hope yer a good mechanic

SiPie may look like Sting, but he must have some large canetlopes down there

I'm sure you've said before that SiPie easily kept up with you in his std car. The extra power from the Tek would help accelerate you out of corners and down the straight bits, but if a driver can carry more speed through the corners they can easily make up for any differences.

I wouldn't discount big, heavy and so-called lumbering barges either. I've been in big BMW's with very good drivers and these things can stick to the roads just as well as any Scoob.

Obviously with the extra weight there's more momentum and they can bite you big style if you get things wrong. With Traction Control and other fancy systems on these cars I think they could easily cope with an AWD car through the twistiest of roads.

Stefan

carl

I disagree. A Scoob has something like 3kg of lift at 100mph, which is nothing. It sure isn't the shape of the body doing that -- and the crap fuel economy and brick wall sensation at high speed suggests that something is generating a lot of drag, probably the rear wing (mind you the bluff nose and the scoop don't help, I imagine). You'd have to be an idiot to design a really draggy wing that didn't also counteract some lift.

ozzy

But isn't that the point? The P1 design did help reduce drag, but haven't heard of any other Scooby wing actually producing good downforce (well to justify the extra weight to the rear).

Unless they want to negate the lift by sticking any old lump of plastic on the bootlid

Stefan

Gidney&Knowlesy

Family friend has one of these AMG things, its a luxurious beast with oh so many ***** to push & buttons to cancel EBD, ABS, ARC, DEF, LMA (made some of those up.....)

Its not a car for attacking the windies though motorway cruising is what it is about, refinement surrounded by 17 cows hide that have been reared in a non barbed wire world.

Absoltley stunning & OK you might just might beat it through the twisties though on a straight road....it is well powerful. Then this person's car is the everyday car.....

If they want to hoon it around out comes the modded 996 turbo with 450 bhp & that is darn quick, I actually drove this away from my own scoob. And whilst it was disappointing to cream my own car; it showed what a supercar could achive....

At times I just have to admit that whilst the Subaru is a stunning car in many markets, in some it just gets left behind. Though the manufacturers never intended for it to go up against the supercar categories.

Though for circa £22k it is a fantstic buy.........

brett555

right then .......who is going to "donate" their scoob and who is going to "donate" their cl55 amg merc for "research" purposes .... i see ashkay has gone quiet now aswell...

brett

SiPie

I'll do the scoob bit but can't quite manage the Merc bit... bit skint this month

<Si puts his Dawes back on, cranks the boost up and goes and prays to the Rain Gods>

LG John

100% agree with you John, thats why if you stick my Impreza and my old VTS on the gogar roundabout and ask them to lap it 100 times the fastest the saxo would finish first with time to spare. If I was to race them to peebles the twisty way (with scooby power restricted to give same bhp @ wheels per ton) the scooby would tank it.

What amazes me is those times where si's feeling a little more hardcore than usual when he comes up to the corner stabs the brakes at the very start of it to tuck the front end in and then floors it the whole way through - I have closed my eyes in the past as I've been soooo sure the front end would let go. A fwd/rwd car can't realistically be on the gas hard till after the apex of the corner but I've been in scoobys that have been going full tilt most of the way around them with all four wheels beginning to slide and brake traction. Rally cars are 4wd for a reason I bet 2 mins in the car with Colin McRay would convince anyone that 4wd (even in a lowly impreza) can be 'used' as a 'tool' to outdo 2 wheels through a corner. But it also depends on the road which is why Impreza's are gash on track.

Cosworth427

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"Steady state cornering speed is unaffected by the number of driven wheels. Traction out of a bend is."
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Talk about blind faith.

Traction depends on WHEEL LOADING. Not on how many wheels are driven. An AWD car will be subjected to weight transfer just as much as a RWD/FWD of a given suspension geometry and set up. Cars will roll away from the turn and unload the inside wheels, so an AWD car will only get effective traction from the outside rear wheel, much like a RWD car would. Shock, springs and strut bar tuning works against this problem. So you want to get the INSIDE REAR wheel loaded as much as possible, especially upon exiting a corner.


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"Wide tyres will probably make it more likely to do nasty things not nice things in the wet."
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CL55 tyres are wider than Imprezas, but not super-wide like those in a 911 Turbo or a GT2. No more wider than the rear tyres of a Carerra 4 in fact, and there has never been major issues with all weather driving with these cars.

You should be worrying about the tread design and rubber compound rather than tyre width if rain really would cause problems. (which it unlikely).










[Edited by Cosworth427 - 8/14/2003 2:23:18 PM]