pban

Luc

Saturday after the rugby would be OK

I'll mail you

Paul

smellyvag

Ta

pban

Luc

YHM

Paul

markwild

John , I'm afraid I haven't re-read the 22b forum lately (not since about the posting of your graph ).

so.... for the benefit of these here folks (and me), do you think that the general concencus of opinion is one -> two greens at midrange is acceptable , if not ideal ?

Cheers,

Mark

john banks

A spike is undesirable IMHO. Maybe I am being too cautious, but my original engine never illuminated properly even the bottom green until over 5000 RPM. I found that if it spikes a bit in the midrange when you get it really cooking it gets worse and worse.

markwild

John - I agree with your point. What we are saying here is that, although my car shows a flickering 1/2 greens around 4.5-6k, it should be possible to run the mild amount of power I'm getting without ANY greens...?

I say 'mild', as an air-filter, decat and a mere 1.1 bar of boost is fairly insignificant compared to some on here.

Though I'm happy that my 90K miles means I'm not prepared to go much further, (though I'm not sure what would be next anyhow ), I really ought to find a way of reducing the strain, by zeroing the det.

I guess each case is individual, but as a general guide for anyone with a similar state of tune to mine (which seems to be the common 1st or 2nd step up from standard engine), what would you suggest ?

I'm currently running an ITG in the standard air box, I've removed the resonator, but not re-routed air flow, have a full de-cat, Dawes and Samco I/C hoses on a 98my UK Turbo.

Any of your experience shared would be appreciated

Thanks,

Mark

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

P20SPD's car didn't blow btw..

It was a suspected blow that turn out to be a false alarm..

I get first green lit and second green flashing from 4500rpm to redline.. although now the weather is cooler seems to be first green flashing.

Mods so far effecting power:

Decat, ScoobyECU(about 1bar),run on Esso SUL or Optimax.

On a UK MY96..

JGM

markwild

JGM - Glad to hear about P20SPD ...

It seems that your mods and mine are about the same (though you've changed the ECU and I've MBC'd) and we're getting similar KL results - I've noticed the decrease slightly due to the colder weather.

From various texts, and the weather demonstration, I suspect that cooling the air intake would make a significant difference, but I'm fairly sure that a FMIC would

a) be expensive
b) not work too happily with my TD04, as Its a wee bit small !

I had considered a water spray onto the intercooler, but I'm not sure how much difference this makes.

Also, getting the TMIC into a better air flow might work.

To be honest, I'm sure my intercooler has seen better days, as a few vanes are damaged, so maybe a better i/C would be beneficial.

From John's 22B thread I also think that its possible to map the ECU to back off the ignition further to allow the higher boost, but I'm not sure how this would be achieved on a 98MY, as alternate ECU's seem to be for Pre and Post 97/98 only.

I think that I may also try and play around with the air scoop intake, to see if I can use a pipe to source cooler air, possibly by utilising the offside bonnet vent, though I need to devise a way of avoiding rain water !

Mark

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Don't panic too much.. it is getting colder

Forgot.. I have a HKS induction kit too..

and a FMIC sat in the garage waiting to go on.. expensive? not arf... very cheap if the wife asks...

You could get a secondhand STI top mount.. being the cheapest option or water injection (rather than water spray) althouhg water spray will help.. couple of STI nozzles from the dealers and some wiper washer tube from the headlight washer motor..

I have a TD05 thanksfully.. like you say TD04 seems a little under puffed.

JGM

markwild

The trouble with the water spray (onto IC) is activating it . I don't fancy overtaking someone, where I'm using full throttle, and trying to press the 'spray' button :O

I think I'd have to fit some kind of temperature and /or pressure switch to provide auto soak

Maybe STI IC would be better, so I'll maybe talk to alcazar, as I think he's fitted one to a 98...

(Although, as you say, maybe the cold weather will remove the need until the spring - could maybe save up by then !)

Cheers,

Mark

RT

I have to concur with John Banks on the spiking.

I have heard audible det (aircon on, radio off) in the mid range, with the KL only lighting 2 greens or 2 greens + 1 amber.

AndrewC

I think it's worth remembering what Bob Rawle has said repeatedly about different cars make different amounts of noise and that the knocklink needs to be setup with det cans.

Also phase 2 engines are generally quieter than phase 1.

Andrew...

john banks

Why not just leave it on maximum sensitivity and look for spikes? Why on any standard engine would you want to turn down the sensitivity? Do any healthy standard internals engines overwhelm it so you can't see spikes because the display is saturated?

AndrewC

John,

Not saturated, but you could get a flickering 2nd green or occasional 1st amber and think it's knock when in fact the noise level is just at the threshold of that LED. Reducing the sensitivity here can help make the knocklink more useful.

Unless you've correlated it with something more definitive than the knocklink it is just a noise level indicator, the different coloured LEDs don't mean anything unless you know what that level corresponds to on your engine.

Andrew...

john banks

I would not say that was a spike though Andrew, just background noise. A spike would be where say the bottom green LED was dim and you got two greens giving a flash and then it goes back to dim bottom green again - ie a distinct peak. If you kill the sensitivity you may destroy this response. So, on a standard engine that is healthy has anyone "saturated" a knocklink so they can't see a spike above baseline?

By the same token you could say that because a car might flicker the orange at 7900 RPM you should turn the sensitivity down? Different examples of different model years make different levels on knocklinks at different RPMs in different driving conditions, depending on where the sensor is mounted, to what torque, the tolerance of the electronic components (small I would expect) and the general noise of the engine. The spike behaviour has been what I've always looked out for. I don't think this would work on some built engines, but on a standard engine why not just leave it on max and let your eyes rather than the level meter do the interpretation? Better still why not let a DSP look for spikes and interpret it for you? I intend to see if this works with the J&S as soon as I can. The claim is you can trust a high compression normally aspirated Mazda engine onto which you bolt a turbo and rising rate fuel pressure regulator to 14 PSI of boost and it takes it happily for thousands of miles.

I just don't buy the idea that a human listening making a static open loop ignition map can be the best for engine safety and optimum performance on a car using variable fuel quality. It will always be an guesstimated worst case scenario for that zone. That is a shame IMHO. Will be interesting to see how much extra torque you can get for how long with a dynamic as opposed to a static ignition map.

[Edited by john banks - 10/17/2003 4:15:25 PM]

markwild

I think that I need to clarify something (for me and hopefully useful to others).

Are we defining a spike (a point in John's last post) as an LED which comes on, but goes OFF again as the revs increase ?

e.g. 2nd green at 5K, but back to 1 by 6k ?

If so, then I certainly don't see this, I get a flickering green at 4.5, turning to solid, then a second green flickering and sometimes solid at 5-6. However, it doesn't go out until I decrease revs - I've realised that I haven't mentioned this - by stating second green at 5K, I meant it stays on at 5->

However, although this may not fit John's definition of a spike, could it actually be det still and not just background noise ?

Note that I often drive with no radio, and the engine doesn't seem to be making any different noises with the dawes than before....

If this is NOT a spike, and could be shown to be background, then I think it may be a small comfort - HOWEVER, I agree with John, in that I'd leave the sensitivity down, so that any spiking at other points in the rev range, say lower due to poor fueling, would still show - I can easily 'adjust' my eyes and brain to look for greens at other points in the rev range and only yellow+ at 5K->


Mark

john banks

Sounds sensible enough, using that approach I think most people avoid blowing things up.

markwild

The difficulty of course is the initial 'calibration' of eyes / brain -

i.e. is the car detting from 4.5k->redline, or just making background noise ?

Once defined for a certain car, it is probably relatively easy to monitor for additional knock -

However, how would the initial calibration be done - and, indeed, can it be done by someone without much experience ?

I'm guessing that if you fitted the KL when the car was standard, it would be MUCH easier to do this, as it would almost certainly have no knock, therefore showing its initial 'noise only' lights. However, most people fit a KL at some stage of tune (in my case decat for example).

Is there an alternate way to listen for knock that a mere simpleton can perform, where knock and background can fairly easily be seperated ?

john banks

Det cans, but as I said, AndyF, T-uk and myself ended up using the knocklink to teach us how to use the det cans

markwild

Hmm, bit chicken and egg this then - I can listen for det, but won't know its det unless the KL lights up, but it may just be background, so I still don't know its det......

I suspect the only way to break the cycle is to have someone listen who already has an egg - i.e. someone who can tell the difference...

Maybe there are other signs ?

For example, if the kl lights up the same way in the warm weather, as the cold, or with the boost turned right down, then its likely to be background ?

Of course, nothing is ever certain, but its nice to increase the percentage

Mark

john banks

It is chicken and egg if you've not listened through det cans before.

Take heart though that my engine at 1.4-1.7+ bar did not blow up just by avoiding all knocklink spikes. In some ways I've maybe been too paranoid about flashes of a few greens, but if left they often turn into big reds when you get the car even hotter anyway, so you are unlikely to be missing a huge amount. You are doing a lot more than many have by having a knocklink in the first place

markwild

Cheers John - you advice is valued, as ever.

I'll keep an eye on the KL and, so long as the greens don't show any 'spike' style behaviour, as defined in my earlier post, and I don't get any yellow or above, I'll take it that its as OK as it can be

I will try to track if the behaviour changes with the weather etc, but obviously this will take a few months ('till its warmer again !)

Thanks again,

Mark