alistair

Al I can say is that I had an EOS 5 for years - I then bought a D60 and sold the EOS 5 a week later !

The D30 is essential the same camera with lower (but still acceptable) resolution.

Be warned though - digital gets you hooked - I've taken an order of magnitude more pictures and learnt a lot more this year. As a result I've really got into it and spent a lot more too.

The instant results mean you experiment more. The fact that the important settings are stored on the picture files means that you can look at a batch of pictures and learn what works.

When was the last time you picked up a camera and ran a batch of shots at different exposure compensation, with different aperture/shutter combinations & with different metering options just to see what they look like ? Well with digital its free & instant and all the information is captured for you - no need to write it down.

The other thing with digital is that taking the picture is half the work, there is soooo much you can do with Photoshop (or similar products). You really can transform what you took and rescue some of your mistakes.

Be warned though, after spending £1800 on a camera, I then bought a laptop (as I spend 2 hours a day on a train), I've spent over £2000 on a couple of L series lenses, bought 550 flash, a Manfrotto tripod & monopod, a lastolite reflector & I'm still going. So on reflection digital has actually cost me way more money than film ever did !!!!

Thanks to Scoobynet, I've almost justified the need for a 1D now !

I've never missed the EOS 5 - you never use the maximum shutter speed - well not unless you've got fast film loaded on a sunny day and you really need a narrow depth of field. Same with continuous shooting - unless you want to keep loading new film. Focus points, well maybe, but the EOS 5 tries to use your eye to decide which one to use and only gets it right about 50% of the time.

At the end of the day the EOS 5 is a cracking camera and you will be very happy with it.

andyr

Bringing this one back to life ....

I bid for, and missed, a well used eos 1 on ebay recently. Now I know the 1's are seen as the best but for sport, mainly motorsport, I wonder if the 1 is much better than the 3 and if that's much better than the 5 ?
The 1 (I guess as they've been around the longest and therefore there's some relatively old examples around) can be picked up for <£300, whereas the 3 seems to cost £300+ and the 5 can be picked up for well under £200 (b/o)

I know at some point that I'll go digital (10D ?) but at the moment there's no way I can justify the price of a s/h D30 even, so getting into the Eos lenses at a good level for a good price is the main objective here.

dr_ming

Andy, what kind of photography do YOU actually want to use the camera for?

andyr

I've a T90 at the moment and that will become my more general camera, the Eos would be mainly used for motorsport and possibly other sports (cycling being one).
Motorsport usage is rallying, motorcycling and then anything else (saloon cars, sprints etc)

dr_ming

IMHO, it will be as good an the older EOS 1 for this, but not as good as the EOS3 or EOS1-V (and maybe EOS1N), which have newer versions of the focussing algorithms and faster processors. However, the EOS5 focussing system seems to be equally capable in low light/low contrast conditions (have not used and EOS1-V, but have tried an EOS3). To be honest, pre-focussing, rather than relying on the servo focus mode is probably better, regardless of which camera you choose. As a glasses wearer, I find the eye-controlled focussing useless on all the EOS cameras I have tried (EOS5, 3 and 30).

Also, EOS5 is capable of 5fps film advance without any kind of external booster (as required for EOS3, for example). Although in reality, the difference between 4fps and 5fps is minimal.

For what you will pay for a good, used EOS5, I don't think you can go far wrong. It was marketed as a semi-pro camera, after all. Only thing to watch out for is the notorious command dial problem (look back in this thread for details). Finally, make sure you get the VG10 vertical grip as well. It makes the camera much better balanced.

Hope this helps!

Edited to say: I have EOS5, 30 and 1000FN, plus access to EOS10D and EOS3 (no booster), and I find that, handling wise, the EOS5 with VG10 is still my favourite.

[Edited by dr_ming - 12/4/2003 12:27:40 PM]

andyr

Thanks - I have noticed that the booster for the 3 is much more expensive than the one for the 5 so I think if I can pick up a decent 5 with or without the booster (if w/o then I'll buy one separately) then I'll do that.

Cheers.

dr_ming

Andy, the difference is the VG10 'booster' for the EOS5 is no more than a grip with second shutter button, input dial, AEL button etc. Whereas I believe the booster (PB-E2?) for the EOS3 really is a booster, i.e. with batteries motor etc. in it.

[Edited by dr_ming - 12/4/2003 1:08:20 PM]

darlodge

andyr,

Jessops have loads of EOS5's at the moment. I am still looking at the moment. Have a look at Jessops

Darren

andyr

It's unfortunate that their web site for s/h items doesn't include prices :I missed a 5 with lens for £289 by 1 day !
At the weekend I went passed a branch which was closing up for the night and spotted it in the window, phoned 1 day later and it had gone (The assistant was surprised that it had remained for sale for so long)

Bu66er !
I'll just keep searching.

darlodge

I've rang round a few recently but am not yet in a position to buy. Here is my investigation work. If you want something from another branch just og into your local branch and get them to transfer it to your local brnch.

CANON EOS 5 +VG 10 GRIP Condition 1 Greenford 0208 813 1819 £350

CANON EOS 5 Condition 2 London - Cannon Street 020 7623 1381 £295

CANON EOS 5 Condition 2 Bournemouth 01202 296021 £345.00

Darren

andyr

Yeah, I phoned a few yesterday and found similar prices - the one I missed looks like it was a bargain !

darlodge

There is (or was last week) one In Brighton Western Road branch for under £300 including a lense. I think its conidtion 2 or 3 but I had a look in store and it looks okay to me.

Darren

dr_ming

Depends which lens of course. Always worth asking (in shops like Jessops) the price without a lens.

I bought an EOS100FN from Jessops. Price with 38-76mm lens (a worthless piece of junk), £120. Price without, £65!! Needless to say, I almost snapped the sales assistant's hand off!

andyr

Just managed to pick up a mint Eos 5 with VG10 Grip for £200 on ebay !
Just need to save up for a few lenses now.

andyr

Also, I contacted Fixation as previously been mentioned on here, as someone's selling an Eos 3 with damaged lens mount for a low price. However they pretty quickly came back too me and suggested that the repair cost would be uneconomic so I quickly dropped that idea ! Also the need to add an expensive m/drive wasn't too appealing.

dr_ming

Andy, sounds like you got a bargain. Almost makes me want to get another one at that price.

WRT the EOS3, damaged lens mount probably equals dropped, so best avoided!

WRT lenses. Choose carefully. IMHO your best bet for a short zoom is the 28-135 IS USM. It covers a good, general purpose zoom range, and the image stabilisation is fantastic. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried it. I regularly shoot at 1/15 at the 135 end and get sharp pics. Note however, this lens is no good at all for panning, as it is a single mode stabiliser i.e. you cannot turn off the horizontal stabilisation (to allow panning) like some of the more expensive IS lenses.

For a long lens (more suited to m/sport) the choice is more down to how much you are willing to spend. The obvious choice is the 100-400 IS USM (with dual mode stabiliser), but it's not cheap!

Have fun, Ming.



[Edited by dr_ming - 12/5/2003 12:32:38 PM]

andyr

Even for motorsport a 28-135 can be quite useful but I WOULD unfortunately need the ability to pan.

andyr

Q (hopefully quick) question : is there a particular designation (ie IS or non-IS ) against Canon lenses that indicates whether or not they are single mode stabilisation ? How about non-Canon lenses
a) are they all noticeably inferior to Canon
b) if they are fine then are some not suitable for panning ?

Thank you.

ps I'll need to work out some way of scanning/posting up some slide pics (on nice Agfa film BTW) I took with my trusty ol' T90 at the recent Cheviot Stages rally - I was quite impressed by them especially as I've not taken all that many photos at rallies over the past couple of years.

dr_ming

Andy, You're not going to like the answer. I am pretty sure that both the non L series IS lenses (i.e the 28-135 and 75-300) are single mode, and all the L series (expensive!) IS lenses are dual mode.

As far as I know, only canon make image stabilised lenses for the EOS system at present, so if you want IS, you have to buy Canon.

For non-IS lenses, the biggest argument against non-Canon lenses that, with the exception of the Sigma HSM lenses, they all use conventional servo motors for focussing, which are much, much slower to focus than the Canon USM lenses.

In terms of optical quality, I don't think there is much to choose between Canon and non-Canon unless you are willing to fork out for Canon L series lenses. However IMHO, I think that Sigma lenses, although generally of good optical quality, are somewhat 'variable' in terms of build quality. I bought the Sigma 105mm macro lens a while back. Optically fine, but build wise, it was a piece of cr@p. I sent it back an bought the Canon 100mm f/2.8 USM macro instead. It cost twice as much, but feels like you could knock nails in with it!

Obviously, any non-image stabilised lens is fine for panning.

Hope this helps, Derek.


[Edited by dr_ming - 12/5/2003 9:07:41 PM]

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Dr Ming is right - the non-L IS lenses (28-135 and 75-300) are single-mode only, while the L series are dual-mode. It's also true that nobody else makes them. If you want to pan, you can always turn IS off on any lens.

I can't agree that non-USM motors are necessarily much slower, though. My 100-300 f/5.6L had a conventional motor but focused quickly enough, and so does my Sigma 15-30. The noise might grate a bit, but although that's a matter of personal taste, it's never bothered me too much.

In optical terms, the only complaints I've heard about non-Canon lensees is about variability, not consistent poor quality. Canon's normal (consumer) lenses seem fairly consistent; the 'L' series may actually be more variable (or they just tend to be bought by people who are more picky about image quality and who moan a lot!).

For what it's worth, I like all my lenses: Sigma 15-30, Canon 50mm f/1.4, 28-135 IS, plus a bunch of 'L's.

Andy.

dr_ming

Oh yes, I forgot about the IS on/off switch, Doh! Problem solved. I guess that's because I rarely do panned shots, so I never turn it off! Get the 28-135 IS USM, it's a great lens (bit of distortion, but unless you're photographing geometrical patterns, you'll never notice). I bought mine s/h (mint, boxed) for £300 including Hoya skylight filter and lens hood.

P.S. Andy clearly has a lot more money than me - I only have one 'L' series lens, the 16-35 f/2.8 L USM, not that I'm jealous or anything!

[Edited by dr_ming - 12/5/2003 9:36:31 PM]

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Actually I'm probably just weak willed

Originally I bought the 100-300 f/5.6L from eBay, but found that I really needed (OK, OK, wanted) IS on a lens that long. So I sold it on and bought the 100-400L IS s/h from B&H in the US. B&H also had the 70-200 f/4 L used and cheap at the same time, so I bought that too - as much on the strength of the positive reviews from the crowd at DPReview as anything. The 100-400 is fabulous, but the 70-200 is much more portable and less conspicuous.

A few weeks ago I decided to retire the 28-135IS as my general purpose lens and replaced it with the 24-70 f/2.8L - new, this time, but at a good price following some haggling with Park Cameras.

The wide angle end is covered by the Sigma 15-30; I've not felt the need for an 'L' given how relatively little use it gets. My complaints about the Sigma are its size and susceptibility to flare, but the quality is great. The 16-35 L would offer a wider aperture, but given that I tend to use it outdoors, f/3.5 is plenty (and not much slower than f/2.8).

Andy.

[Edited by AndyC_772 - 12/5/2003 10:08:38 PM]

dr_ming

Yeah, my father-in-law has a 100-400 IS USM it's a wicked lens. Here's a picure I took with it. 400mm, 1/125s @ f/5.6, handheld, from the back of another boat! Film was Fuji Press 800, Camera was EOS5.



P.S. Andy - Green eyed monster in the nicest possible way

[Edited by dr_ming - 12/5/2003 10:18:53 PM]

IWatkins

Sigma do actually make an IS lens but they call is OS = Optical Stabalizer. It is also a dual mode (switchable) lens. See here for the Sigma 80-400mm f4.5-5.6 EX OS.

Whether it any good or not is anybodies guess. But I've yet to see any Sigma EX series lenses produced in the past two years that haven't been good - very good on the Canon L series scale. Of course, there are always lemons when it comes to lenses.

Dr Ming
I hear you on build quality, but to be honest I've had the same build issues with Canon lenses. Just seems totally random.

I also have the Sigma 105mm Macro and find it to be excellent, pin sharp. One of my favorite lenses. Case of your milage may vary whether you get a good lens or not from any of the makers ?

Cheers

Ian

[Edited by IWatkins - 12/5/2003 10:56:14 PM]

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

dr_ming: nice shot How do you meter for something like that? I'd have expected it to come out massively underexposed. Can you remember if you locked exposure elsewhere and then recomposed?

Ian: well, bu66er me, they do make a stabilised lens - I must make a mental note to become (even more of) an equipment nerd Now you mention it I do recall hearing about it when it came out; it's fairly recent, isn't it?

A macro lens is something I haven't yet looked at. I have a set of Kenko extension tubes which work really well - if there are any optical issues with them, then they're certainly masked by my own inability to focus accurately at close distances. A macro lens wouldn't help there!

I tend to use the tubes with the 50mm f/1.4 for very close work - anything else feels rather big and heavy and needs supporting when it's spaced away from the camera, so as not to strain the lens mount. That said, I have used the 100-400L with them to photograph bugs, lizards and other small but nervous subjects from a distance. Hand-holding that little lot, zoomed out to 400mm and with a DSLR plus grip at the other end is hard work and always atttracts comments from passers-by, but it's worth it

dr_ming

Andy, the metering technique was from a tip I read in a John Hedgecoe photograpy book years ago. Basically, I took a meter reading from the sky vertically above me (so no sun in the pic), recomposed and took the shot. I usually put the camera in manual exposure mode when shooting sunsets, as it is easy to loose the AE lock when using Av/Tv, and mess up the exposure. IIRC, the meter reading with the sun in the shot was approximately 3 stops more.

I have always metered for this kind of sunset shot (when the sun is in the shot) in this way, and it appears to work. On the basis on this, I rarely bother to bracket.

WRT to macro shooting, I have used extension tubes too, and when used with a good prime lens (and the 50mm f/1.4 is certainly that), I don't think there is any significant difference in quality. The only benefit of the 100mm f/2.8 lens is that, as it's 100mm vs. 50mm, you don't need to be so close to the subject, which makes lighting easier. It also makes a very good portrait lens (although maybe a little TOO sharp ).

IMHO, a ring flash will yield the biggest improvement to your macro photography. I have an MR14-EX, and have been very pleased with the results. Here is an example:



Shot outside, 100mm f/2.8 macro. Probaly around 1/200s @ f/16 with MR14-EX, Canon EOS5, Fuji Superia 200.

[Edited by dr_ming - 12/6/2003 1:15:28 PM]

andyr

Having now got my hands on my lovely Eos 5 I could do with a manual - setting it to Tv , Av or M will allow pretty straightforward operation I'm sure (need to buy a lens before I can actually test it out) but I'd like to suss out the other features.
I've printed off some details I found (inc on here ---> Useful Photo Site ) but I would like a hardcopy manual if possible.

Will Canon dealers be able to supply ?

[Edited by andyr - 12/10/2003 9:57:49 PM]

darlodge

EOS 5 manauls are selling on ebay £4.95 buy now

Also a company that advertise in Amateur Photography (weekly magazine) sell them for about £11.

Edited to say that the ebay auctions are pdf's but I can get the telephone number/website for the company in the above mag if you want.

Darren

[Edited by darlodge - 12/10/2003 10:11:12 PM]

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Dr_ming: The ring flash would be nice, certainly - I've lost count of the number of times I've found myself wielding a D30 with extension tubes and the 50mm lens in one hand, attached by a springy cable to the 420EX in my other hand, all wobbling away while I try to snap an uncooperative subject

That said, I've seen a lot of shots taken with it that have a very distinctive double rectangular catchlight that I don't like - any shot that includes a water droplet or an eye seems to suffer badly from this. Is that just poor setup on the part of the photographer, or is it inevitable with some flash/lens combinations?

dr_ming

Andy, The double rectangular catchlight (in a macro picture)implies that maybe the photographer was using a macro twin-light (like the Canon MT-24EX). This is basically two (non-diffused) mini flash heads that sit either side of the lens. It is more likely that you will get catch-lights using one of these, and some photographers choose to do this deliberately (especially with eyes - catchlights do add a certain 'sparkle' to a portrait).

The MR14-EX ring flash is a diffused light source and, although it still consists of two separate tubes, these each cover 90 degrees of the circumference of the lens and sit very close to the lens edge. The result is that it is much more difficult to get catchlights (although not impossible), and the light source is virtually shadow free.

The old Canon ML-3 (A-TTL only) ring flash can be picked up quite cheaply these days.