dosenöffner

It's a shame England don't win something more often than every 40 years. Maybe then you'd know how to be gracefull in victory aswell instead of just behaving like you've lost anyway.

You invaded the colonies. Don't complain about them now.

Boss Hogg

Dose - we didn't invade the colonies - we INVENTED the colonies, and sent all the sheep rustling, highway robbing, coach-thieving scum off to populate them....

Bajie

S I A L

But it did make me laugh ...



[Edited by Bajie - 11/27/2003 2:41:06 PM]

dosenöffner

I stand corrected. I always thought going to a populated country and killing all the indigenous people was a form of invasion. Apparently not.

I bow before you and beg forgiveness.

England win a medal in the Olympics. There's a great medal for England.

Scotland win a medal in the Olympics. There's a great medal for Great Britan.

Tony Quinn

Interesting sidenote re deportees is that the transportation registers show that large numbers of people were deported for stealing food during famines (both British and Irish. In addition to the well-remembered Irish famine of the 1840s, there had been a largely-ignored famine on the mainland which is thought to have claimed over 1,000,000 victims).

The other shocking crime that accounted for as many as 90% of deportations in some years was political activism/dissent. The most disagreeable of these people had views such as One man, one vote, Ireland for the Irish and thst they should have the right to form trade unions.

Anyway, I don't recall ever meeting an unfriendly Aussie.

Diesel

Daz34

LMAO

lightning

An important distinction needs to be made here and that is that the press in Australia, albeit bad, was not representative of what actaully happened. Most Australian's I know thought it was out of order and the rest took it as amusing hype. The funny thing for me was that I had seen it all before (over here). Papers like the Sun, Mirror, Sport etc. have made this type of journalism an artform. We all like a bit of sledging but for fark sake don't take it so seriously.

I was there for 3 matches, 2 of them for England and I don't recall any animosity amongst the supporters. The atmosphere was fantastic.

At the end of the day the better team one. Fair play to England.

An Aussie.

dosenöffner

And let's remember it was a 'WORLD' Cup.

Aussies are crap but there are worse out there.

A Kiwi.

Boss Hogg

If my knowledge of history serves me correctly then we siezied many aboriginal lands and resettled tribes - which resulted in a large-scale number of deaths through disease - but you can't equate that with going to a country and pursuing a deliberate policy of extermination.

And yes, it was a bummer to be transported, but they were harsh times and transportation was often an alternative to the death penalty. Also it's not true to say that many political activists were transported 'successfully', as their transportation caused more harm than good (eg tolpuddle martyrs) and they could stir up trouble once in Australia.

lightning

You beat me to it Dos. Forgot to mention the Kiwis.

dosenöffner

lightning

Yep, Howards performance was p1ss poor. Unfortunately I think the WRC Chairmans presenation to the Aussie team was even worse. Both teams worked their guts out and got treated poorly. Howards has copped loads of **** about his performance and the dressing room visit was too late.

dosenöffner

There were trophy killings. Many Aborigines were hunted for sport.

Rorke's Drift?



Must have done something wrong in New Zealand to pi55 Te Kooti off enough to start a war.



Why didn't England colonise countries that already had guns? Because that would be war? What's the difference? How can you say it wasn't an invasion?

England tried to breed the Scots out.

Granted you spread technology at the time but I imagine most of them would have been just as happy not knowing about hot lead, typhoid, the common cold, cholera and syphilis.

"We come in peace. Shoot to kill."



Well done on the win all the same. Enjoy it for the next four years.

[Edited by dosenöffner - 11/27/2003 5:07:07 PM]

Tony Quinn

"There were trophy killings. Many Aborigines were hunted for sport." - Undeniable and I'm sure that the Australian authorities didn't treat this appaling crime with the same seriousness as the British/Irish authorities dealt with sheep-stealing, rabble rousing or gathering peacefully in large numbers

"Rorke's Drift?" - There's a strong argument that the British had no right to be in Africa at that time but I wouldn't label the participants criminals or murderers. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to have been wearing a red coat there on that day.


"Must have done something wrong in New Zealand to pi55 Te Kooti off enough to start a war." - That would be the illegal/immoral land grabs performed by the British gentry, a practice first developed in their own country 100 years earlier.



"Why didn't England colonise countries that already had guns? Because that would be war? What's the difference? How can you say it wasn't an invasion?" - BRITAIN was more than willing to take a pop at anyone during its imperial days, no matter how many guns they had. E.g. France, Spain, USA (well our own colonists anyhow), Canada (pesky colonists again), Russia, Germany, Austria, Holland, India, Afghanistan, China, Japan, Boers. This list doesn't even draw on the WW1 or WW2 opponents and these are just the opponents with artillery, it does seem that we fought with everyone no matter how well armed they were. I think colonisation was dependant upon indigenous population densities and trading opportunities. Certainly, Australia's first colonies were all penal colonies. I think it was 30 years before free settlers were permitted.

"England tried to breed the Scots out." - Ho hum, on the contrary Scotland was well integrated within the Union and much of the invading was done by Scottish (and Welsh and Irish) regiments such as the Black Watch, Highlanders, Scots Greys who all proudly bore emblems of the Scottish nation in battle and fought as hard and willingly as any of the English regiments.

"Granted you spread technology at the time but I imagine most of them would have been just as happy not knowing about hot lead, typhoid, the common cold, cholera and syphilis." - Agreed, and they'd probably have prefered to know nothing about settlers (who were most at fault in the Maori Wars) and their ancestors either

"We come in peace. Shoot to kill." - Not entirely fair, there are many examples of Britain ruling in a benign manner and being well thought of by the locals, after all the army couldn't fight the entire world we had to be nice to some people.



"Well done on the win all the same. Enjoy it for the next four years." - Thanks, I was rooting for the All Blacks to make it to the final. You definitely had a better team than the Wallabies.

dosenöffner

Funny. Cheers Tony.

Here is a clicky link for anyone interested in New Zealand / Australia tie-ins. Chuckle.

[Edited by dosenöffner - 11/27/2003 7:39:57 PM]

Diesel

>>Scotland was well integrated within the Union and much of the invading was done by Scottish (and Welsh and Irish) regiments<<

Tony, do you reference the above in relation to Empire and AFTER the subjugation and subjectification of the Celts?

If not I’ll take you on as, if you remember correctly, The Act of Union business never went to the polls making it somewhat in the same vein as other empirical aboriginal conquests…

The English national anthem to this day refers to ‘crush the rebellious Scots’ and they in return mention ‘send home Edwards army tae think again’. Hardly the stuff of your ‘integration’!!!

D

PS on an ‘on-topic’ note I too have now had the feedback from my Aussie mates that they are SO embarrassed about Howard and consider him a nation humiliating right wing to$$er


[Edited by Diesel - 11/28/2003 10:43:05 AM]

Boss Hogg

the ignorance of history is so breathtaking it's impossible to know where to begin......

Jye

If not I’ll take you on as, if you remember correctly, The Act of Union business never went to the polls making it somewhat in the same vein as other empirical aboriginal conquests

Not quite.

While monarchs since James VI wanted a Union between Scotland and England, the people were flatly opposed to it. Some Scots even planned to end the "Union of Crowns" after the death of the childless Queen Anne. She, on the other hand, wanted a Union to secure "the Protestant Succession" to her throne and decided on "an incorporating union" despite proposals for a "federal solution" from Fletcher of Saltoun.

The Union, desperately unpopular in Scotland, was pushed through a poorly attended Scottish Parliament despite popular protests by a mixture of bullying and bribery immortalised by Burns'song "Parcel o' Rogues".

In the words of Robert Burns, they (the Scottish MP's) were "bought and sold for English gold".

Tez_H

dosenöffner

From Sky News in the last few minutes :

It is alleged that one of the English rugby players

failed a drugs test yesterday evening. If positive, under

World Rugby Federation rules, para 6 sub section 2e,

England will forfeit the rugby world cup and Australia

will retain the crown.



See below for more details




































































Carlsberg don't do e-mails but if they did they

would probably be the best emails in the world.

Tony Quinn

Diesel,

The Act of Union with Scotland was always a damn sight more popular in Scotland than the equivalent was in Ireland. Obviously there was significant objection given the wars that had raged across the centuries but there was no resistance after the Jacobite rebellion. This rebellion numbered just 5,000 men (mainly Highlanders) and the Duke of Cumberland's forces that quashed the rebellion at Culloden consisted mainly of............Scots (of the lowland variety)! Oh yes, the people who so cruelly subjugated Scotland were....err....Scottish. Following this rebellion, the highlanders were largely "eradicated" from Scotland by these evil...Scots. So the odds are that you are descended from supporters of the English who helped to "cleanse" Scotland of these Highlanders. If you're not, then fair play, you suffered a great injustice but most of your countrymen were looking to get rid of you anyway beacause it was more profitable/sensible to ally with the English and you were getting in the way. If you are, get off your high horse it was almost 300 years ago and the world was a very different place. Life is difficult enough without dredging up old differences that have no relevance in the 21st Century, even if you did butcher your countrymen!

History should not be rewritten to salve the conscience of those who ruthlessly betrayed/suppressed their own people. Because that is the history of Scotland, as Jye (unknowingly?) alluded to with his Burns quote.

And please don't get me started on the folly of the Protestant/Catholic thing!!!

[Edited by Tony Quinn - 11/28/2003 3:09:00 PM]

Diesel

Tony

I'm with Jye and Mel Gibson I'm afraid! Ohh and I'm about as Scotish as a didgerydoo - sorry if that messes your 'dig' up digger (not that I assume your nationality of course

Too off topic and too much work to do...>>sneaks off with ginger sideburns bristling<<

Tony Quinn

OK, but I still like Aussies. I have no opinion on John Howard as I know little/nothing about the guy. I'm sure that I would have been disgusted by the lack of grace with which he awarded the winners' medals if I hadn't just witnessed Millar tossing the runners-up medals to the Aussies. Truly appalling, especially as they had made it to the final against the odds.

And don't get me started on that ref!

P.S. Not as English as you might think!

dosenöffner

You remind me of Keith Quinn. There was a great Kiwi commentator.

Tony Quinn

Thanks! He sounds like he might be an ancestor of a transportee, God only knows how my lot got away without being caught! Looking forward to the Barbarians match, I reckon that we'll see some good rugby played in that one.

Jye

Tony, not to drag up 'old sores', but your not exactly telling the whole story.

During the '45', the Highlanders under Bonnie Prince Charlie almost succeeded in conquering England. King George the Second was in Hanover, and most of the English army was off fighting in Germany and Flanders. If not for a series of events that changed the obvious outcome of the Jacobite rebellion, the Highlanders and not the English (British)would have ruled Scotland.

Soon after the rebellion was put down, the English implemented a series of Acts to eliminate the Scottish threat. Ingenious in their conception, these laws not only restored order, they virtually eliminated a way of life by destroying the clans, their identities and economic structures. That the laws were harsh is true but, considering the fact they were implemented within a context of fear, they are understandable. Fear that this rebellion could happen again, and the next time with more successful results.

As an imperial nation, Britain was used to fighting outside of its own borders, and the fact that a so-called 'ill-equipped, ill-led rabble of barbarians' almost succeeded in taking over the country shook its leadership deep down to its roots. Legislation went into effect quickly: the time from the defeat of the Scots until implementation of the first Act was only months. The rule of the Scottish lairds and their absolute control of the Clans had to be broken, and very soon. On August 1st, 1746 the Act of Proscription went into effect. This was the first of the 'Kings laws' bent on breaking the back of the Scottish system of government and independent life. It was largely a reiteration of an earlier act, The Disarming Act, but this time the penalties were harsher and much more thoroughly enforced.

I dont think this quite tallies with your notion of events or that most Scots were willing participants or even the perpetrators.

Cheers.




[Edited by Jye - 11/28/2003 4:13:09 PM]

Jye

Sorry for another post but in general I agree with many of your thoughts. Unfortunately, this episode in history continues to cause problems for the remaining Celtic nations. The Orangemen and the Catholics continue to fight, although any reason to continue this feud has passed long ago. Maybe some day, the remaining Celtic people will learn to live with each other, instead of fighting over matters which have little bearing on their day to day lives.

Just thought I should say that

dosenöffner

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