Sprinterjk

Blair's idea of getting 50% of school-leavers into University education is absolutely ridiculous... I graduated this July from one of the top 25 Universities with a good degree (2:1), strong work experience, and foreign languages. However, trying to find a decent Grad job is an absolute nightmare. I eventually did manage to get a place on a good grad scheme for a mulitnational company, but one of the deciding factors was that I speak two foreign languages fluently and lived overseas most of my life, so could easily work overseas for them. How many of Blair's 50% will have this advantage? Without my languages, I probably would not have been able to get a decent grad job, as there just aren't that many going.

So what is Blair planning for all these graduates to do to pay back their £3k a year fees plus student loans? I've got a good job with good prospects, but started on £20k, about 30% of which gets taxed/NI'd away. Its hard enough with a decent starting salary and no loans or fees to pay back, but what about those who cannot get a grad job because there just aren't enough to go around? It will just lead to lifelong debt for people encouraged into University education only to graduate and find their degree will not get them a better job and are now three years behind those who didn't bother going to Uni, albeit with £30k of student debt...

Sorry bout that, rant over...

ps. Tax payers do not subsidise students going out drinking 3 or 4 times a week... That comes out of student loans which must be paid back, parental contributions, or wages from part-time/summer jobs.

289

I've no problems with students paying to go to university. Where I do have the problem is with paying for it twice; if you really do get a better job and thus earn more by dint of having gained an additional qualification, you're already paying more in tax than you would otherwise have done.

The problem we have now is that many more people are going to universities. This is no bad thing; quite the reverse, in fact, for the very simple reason that a skilled workforce will be better able to attract a greater percentage of the world's high-skill jobs. We're already good at that, and I'd like to see us continue.

However (and it's a very big however) this all falls to **** if the selection criteria are so slack that EVERYONE can get to do a degree, no matter how pointless or academically weak. If this happens we end up with several million people with Media Studies degrees all trying desperately to get a job making reality TV programmes for mediocre satellite channels. Hardly boosting the intellectual property rights of United Kingdom plc, is it?

My proposal (and I still remain to be convinced that this couldn't work) is that you should get a student grant if you go off to do a degree, and have no fees of any sort to pay. In return you waive the right to have a cap on your NI, rather than having the £20k (ish) ceiling on contributions, as other taxpayers have.

civictyper

Thanks dnb

I must have come across the wrong way re OU degrees. Soz.

I referred to an OU degree as being a bit 'Mickey Mouse' as that's how a lot of people still see them It's definately not a 'soft option' IMO (I do 16-20 hours a week + 40 with work) and you have to work just as hard but the general perception is that you get an OU degree by watching a few TV programs on a Sunday morning.

I think that employers are starting to realise that OU degrees are worth as much as a regular degree but unfortunately it can still tip the balance at job interviews.

DAC

ctyper - glad you cleared that up - I'm doing OU biology degree (3 years now done) (having been in Engineering for 16 years - can't wait to get out - and you want to get in (funny old world))

OU courses are extremely time consuming - difficult ?-yes - but depends on your intellect of course. - will cost about £6000 minimum.
no subsidies. (and during term time which is feb to Oct - i have little social life)

BUT - i plan to go full-time to University to do physiotherapy 2004 - so watching the debate avidly.
will hopefully get a degree (worthwhile I think) - but still earn less as a qualified physio in NHS hospital than I do now !!!

am I stupid ? if I have to pay £3000/year will I go ?


STOP THE STUPID DEGREES (eg football - WTF) - apprenticeships and trades should be encouraged.

My best mate - a sparky - left school with a fraction of my qualifications (hardly any in fact) and now earns loads more than me.
and will never be out of a job.

ProperCharlie

I agree that 50% of school leavers going to uni is silly. GCSE and then two years A levels or vocational training should be ok, shouldn't it? Let's face it, universities were only invented to give toffs something to do in beween eton and grouse shooting. where is the evidence that more degrees in media studies is going to be good for the economy? did the bloke who fitted my bathroom have a degree in anything? no - but he did a nice job tho'

and yes i have got a degree.

thankee veeery much



[Edited by ProperCharlie - 12/5/2003 3:29:51 PM]

civictyper

Anything to do with building services is a good un' IMO. I recently fitted a kitchen at home and just needed a chippie to do the worktops. Could I get one ? Could I ever as they were all booked up for months.

A mate of mine has recently finished her Physio degree though so good luck with yours. There's some good money to be had in the private sector especially if you deal with sports injuries. Last time I went in for shin splints I had to pay £30 for half an hour

WRT your OU will you be able to transfer your credit to your new Uni ? Would save you a packet if you can.

DAC

unfortunately non-of the biology degree study is transferable to physio degree. (will be helpful knowledge tho')

otherway round I could have saved a packet with the OU if I had a physio degree and started OU biology degree.

only really started with OU to get onto a physio course - but it is extremely difficult to get onto a physio degree course, ( 800 applicants for 40 places at local UNi) missed out in 2001, didn't enter in 2002 or 2003, but waiting on a decision for 2004 - otherwise may just end up with OU biology degree in 3 years time, and have to see what is available.

civictyper

She was the same. Couldn't get in the year she wanted (Bradford Uni) and they also wanted her to do some preliminary courses too as the intellectual level of entrants was so high.

Seems like physiotherapy is an up and coming profession.

St Andy

I think fee's should be more like £5000, uni's are very short of money these days

DAC

my mum (until recently) used to work for student union at local Uni, and they wasted no end of money.

they own a bar, a nightclub, cafes etc etc. - & would sell bottles of budweiser and whiskey shots for 10p - to get rid of excess stock and use up end of year budgets.
they would refurb rest rooms/ cafes / bars etc virtually every year - throwing in a skip - TV's, video equipment, tables, chairs, cookers etc - staff were warned they would be sacked if they removed it from the skips.
needless to say the students didn't let it stay there.

then they have cheek to pay minimum wage to staff !!!

don't know who funds the student unions - but they are certainly not short of cash.

Goochie

I have a very good degree (BEng 2:1 IMechE from Burnell) that has provided me with invaluable knowledge. I dont think I could have got where I am today without it.

I agree with tuition fees to a point. However, this new "top-up" scheme is just plain ridiculous. My other half's parents dont earn much between them but still had to pay nearly £1000 per year to send her to Uni. This diddnt include living costs etc. Some people on here seem to think that you dont have to pay anything until you start earning over £15k - that's a load of carp. Tutition fees must be paid as you go along, it is the student loan that must be paid once you earn over a certain limit (which, I believe is actually £10k).

University was traditionally seen as something only the rich, priviledged could do, personally I think these new plans will simply return it to that position.

I pay for public transport through taxes but choose not to use a bus. I don't complain that I'm paying for a bus that I don't use do I !?!? NO! Paying for the bus means that it's there if I need it, if I choose not to use it then that's my problem. If other's choose not to go to Uni then that's their problem.

Perhaps the government should stop spending silly ammounts on whatever George Bush wants and concentrate on our country.

Dave P

My own view is that there should be two tiers of Degree. The first tier being the type of degrees that used to be the norm when we were at school, sciences, engineering, medecine, languages etc. These have some chance of benefiting society as a whole. These degrees should be free.

The second tier would be degrees in, Posh and Becks, ABBA, business studies etc. Fees should be levied on these.

Then failure to pass any degree should result in students paying the fee as they clearly spent to much time in the NUS bar.

Finally I would suggest the Australian method whereby students pay a higher rate of tax for a determined number of years after leaving uni!

Dave

BexTait

Goochie, with the top-up thingy, tuition fees will not be paid up fornt, only when you earn over 15k.
One thing I have seen suggested somewhere (dunno when or where tho) was that student debt would be wiped out if that student, after graduating, did a teacher training course (eg PGCE) and went in to teaching, which isn't a bad idea.
It's the government's fault anyway, they wanted people to go to uni, so they persuaded them, now they have problems, and it's dissuading people from going. I personally think it's better with less people going, as it's making degrees worthless.

midget1500

this angers me. what next, no free health care at all?

a LOT of you people seem to think uni is a luxury, yes there are a lot of crap degrees (ha, like IT these days - silly me!) and i've got over 10k debt to shift, ohh, and jobs going at 11-13k. great. i can earn more installing sky boxes and have no debt in the first instance.

seriously people, we spend millions on things like the iraq war(s), millenium domes (woohoo, £700m down the tubes) etc.

free healthcare and education - is that so much to ask? uni used to be free, so why now do we have to pay for it???

must go lie down now

muppet paster

Can't be arsed to read the whole of this thread, but here's my 2p worth.

I think that everyone has the right to education up to a certain level and i'd say that level should be A levels. Why should the state pay for people to be educated beyond that level? After aquiring their degree they'll have more earning potiental and if the iduvidual has the self-belief in themselves, let them fund themselve through loans or whatever.

Also, if 50% of the population has a degree, who's going to do all the crap, non skilled jobs? Or do you want more immigrants to fill the labour market?

Leslie

I think the idea of most school leavers having the chance of going to University is a mistake. Not everyone is really going to benefit from it, especially with the useless subjects available for students to read. Education is being dumbed down so much that the number of school leavers who are virtually illiterate and innumerate now is shocking.

As well as university courses which should be for those who prove their true ability through results that actually mean something, there should be more effort to provide vocational courses for those who would profit from them.

I also believe that the idea of expecting the students who do prove their worth for a university course to pay for their education is absolutely wrong. The country needs them and to saddle them with such enormous debts before they even start out on life proper is an abrogation of educational responsibility. Vocational courses should be regarded in the same light.

Les