NACRO

You are sure that they are? (ironic use of that subjective term considering the reliance you seem to place on empirical facts)
Well I'm sure that they are not- as far as I can see most of them are self serving individuals who don't follow christian teachings in the day to day business of their lives. For "evidence" of this look at the state of the so called "christian" society in the UK- a worse sodom and gomorrah would be hard to find. If you think that the UK is a christian society all I can say is you aren't looking hard enough.

TelBoy

But when does somebody born a Christian cease to "be" a Christian then?

Luke

How the hell can someone be born a ****edited to remove profanity**** Christian/muslim jew whatever????

The child is just born..The parents then force a whole set of rules etc onto the child.

****Edited to remove zenophobic generalisations****


[Edited by Josh L - 12/12/2003 7:30:19 PM]

Luke

URRRRRRRRRRRRRRRH

makes me mad.

What would happen if A child took his/her parents to court under the Human rights laws etc etc for forcing them into a religion.???

Would they win??

Little Clanger

Cor dear, I cant beleive what I read on here.

First, NACRO. So you reckon that (and I aint quoting here)the measure of the christian following should be based squarely on church attendance - cr@p! Ever heard of the old "..harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven" speech by old J.C. himself? I am not gonna spend the rest of the afternoon translating this into the current conext. Surely it can be worked out. Church-sacrements-commandments et al provide the tools for a Christian way of life. How you use them is the difficult part i.e. living and practising a Christian way of life, or, a life conducive to Christian principles. Walking into a building for one hour a week has got almost p1ss all to do with it. I consider myself a christian in that I beleive in God and try to do unto others etc.etc. 10 commandments etc.etc. I ceased to attend church 16 years ago at the age of 16. IMHO, you are misguided.

Andrew Delvard, whats the point of giving a brief history lesson that once again misses the point. What we are talking about is not the abhorrent practices of the **** regime, but the ability of an inanimate object such as a scarf on the head, flag with an odd shaped cross on, white diamond with a red hand on excetera excetera excetera (Yawn)to take on the ability of identifying its supporter as an affiliate of one body or another, by whom others may feel threatened / oppressed / uncomfortable blah di blah di blah. THE POINT of the French action (pending or not) is to force removal of outward signs of affiliation to a particular religion for the sole purpose of reducing incidences of offence to others. Now, call me old fasioned, but I would have thought this to be a move to reduce inflamatory situations not increase them and would therefore be - not racist??? Either I am a complete spak suffering an intellectual drought, or as I believe, you have again missed the point.

If any of you guys want some educating on the meaning of racism, read a book called "Gold in the Furnace" by a Hindi woman called Sevitri Devi. You might learn something about human nature.

But hey, If you all have scoobs, I love ya.

Dracoro

Above, I wasn't trying to determine 'how' christian someone is, but whether or not they are a christian. After all, what is a Christian? Are you a Christian (or any other religion) just because you say you are?

Is it about beliefs? yes? In which case you can't be BORN anything. When you are born, you don't have any beliefs, you're a baby and the brain etc. can't pocess that level of thought.



On the subject of the thread, I think the kids should be able to wear crosses, headscarves or whatever iconography they wish as long as they wear whatever uniform is required too.

Little Clanger - don't have a scoob, against my religion you see

[Edited by Dracoro - 12/12/2003 1:48:15 PM]

Duck_Pond

I'd agree with Telboy in that the UK is a Christian society, but that this type of society has evolved from the days when everyone attended church on Sundays etc. Society in general has evolved.

I think you'll find that most countries are corrupt regardless of what underlying religion exists. You (Nacro) just enjoy having a dig at the UK at every possible opportunity. We all know you hate the UK; get over it.

The UK is a Christian society in general, whether people choose to follow the dictionary meaning of the term or not.

As for the original topic - good on the French I say. It's about time people stood up for their own country. If these people affected by not being able to show off their religion are so upset by the ruling, they should choose to go to a more religion-friendly establishment.

TelBoy

True, Drac and Luke. But, under the laws of this country (and i stand to be corrected), you're a Christian if your parents are Christian, unless you decide to convert after 12 years old. And since i don't see a whole load of people doing that, the majority are, and will remain Christian, whether they're Church attenders or not.

It feels like some people here are saying that being a Christian is somehow a bad thing, however and to whatever extent it is reflected by the individual...

Dracoro

What laws say you are a christian if your parents are? how do you 'convert' away from being one at 12 years old? What happens if an 11 year old wants to become a muslim for example, can the state 'stop' them?

I stand to be corrected too, but I've never heard of any such laws.

I remember something in the past about being baptised, but that's surely to do with being recognised by the church, not the state.

[Edited by Dracoro - 12/12/2003 2:10:01 PM]

Luke

European human rights lawyers might say different. Its abuse to demand a little girl is made to wear a veil when she goes out. Same a Extreme jews Shaving ladies hair off and making them wear wigs......

Duck_Pond

LOL - Extreme Jews Sounds like a Channel 5 programme!!!

Little Clanger

Luke,
dont get me started on the European Convention on Human Rights man, thats the most abused, misinterpreted devisive peice o sh1te I have ever read.

Apart from that, I,m turning the other cheek as the good Lord suggested.

I love you all, you've been great.

unclebuck

On the subject of the thread, I think the kids should be able to wear crosses, headscarves or whatever iconography they wish as long as they wear whatever uniform is required too.

I don't think little kids understand the significance of what their parents make them wear. They are being manipulated and indoctrinated into a religion but they don't realise it's political significance because they are too young. I think exploiting the innocent in this way is distasteful in the extreme.

IMO muslim headwear these days has *very* negative associations because the muslim religion has been hijacked by extremists bent on the destruction of the western world at any cost.

Dracoro

Fair point. I'm undecided 100%. Basically, I don't think people should be telling other people what to wear. Kids are being TOLD what they have to wear, whether it be by the state, religion or the parents.

The question really is: Should shcoolchildren have uniforms? Uniforms currently state that they must wear ABC and cannot have XYZ even if it includes religious clothing. Religious people should respect that if they wish respect back.

Heck! The religion of Saint Drac states that we should wear jeans and t-shirts! Does that mean that my kids should be able to wear jeans & t-shirt while all the other kids respectably wear the school uniform? This illustrates the absurdity of religions dictating what people should wear. Religion, if nothing else, is about BELIEFS. What clothes/jewellery/haircuts etc. should be inconsequential.

NACRO

In response to duck: my comments could apply equally to any so called "christian" country- like the USA for example where attendance figures are higher, particularly in some states. These so called "christian" countries are amongst the most immoral on earth.

I'm the only one who seems to have produced any evidence when asked (25% churc attendance figure)- everything else is purely personal opinion on the part of some misguided, ill-informed people.

As for being "born a christian" what a load of old ****, nobody is born into any religion. It may well be foisted upon them but as it takes a considerable amount of time before they are able to form any kind of opinion I'd say that's one of the stupidest/funniest things I've heard telboy say (apart from his sarfend paradise comments in the past that is) .

TelBoy

Nothing further to say. Didn't realise we couldn't keep this civilised.

NACRO

that is civilised- you should have read the text I was going to post...........

Duck_Pond

Do we have a performance table, a "Top 40" of the most immoral countries on earth then?

Or is this simply an opinion based on certain countries being more open to admitting their own misgivings than others?

NACRO

If only we did it would make a great list of places to visit.

My vote for the No.1 godless pit of sinners has to be the USA.

IMHO- and this is just an opinion I can't think of a less moral, more evil country of deviants. A country where the worst kind of violent mysoginistic pornography is produced, where people hold weapons and murder each other on a routine basis, they brutalise the rest of the world and rape its resources. It also happens to be leader of the "christian" free world.

Duck_Pond

The United Sinners of America? Power corrupts.

Cosworth427

LOL

Take a look at yourselves!

A bunch of internet addicts theorising on issues and beliefs you people have little understading or experience of!

Duck_Pond

"understading". Chortle.

TelBoy

427, exactly. But if anyone can put us all right as to "the" religion of the UK, the role of the Church of England, and the default religion of UK citizens, without the need to resort to patronisation, i for one would be happy to hear it. From what i've read, it's a very complex issue to which there are no strightforward answers.

NACRO

Which issues and beliefs do you believe we have no experience of?

Islam? Christianity? The hypocritical and profane state of christian democracies?

I'd say everyone who has so far contributed should be applauded for having a view of whatever type and having the motivation to share it with others.
The majority of people on here seem to prefer vacuous tripe about soap operas and bitching about the penalties for whatever law they last broke (while of course being robust defenders of the system in general). While I concede that there is a place for that type of cr*p here on the board, there is equally a place for this debate.

NACRO

There is no default religion of UK citizens.

Cosworth427

Duck_pond

Now you listen to me you POS, Your posts in this thread reeks of ignorance to the 1st order.

Your stupid theories is about as mis-informed as the lazy out of work whiners who claim about "immigrants taking up all the jobs" after a few pints down their local.

No amount of religion and faith from someone else has made me change the way how *I* live my life nor dictate what *I* believe in. I don't see how someone wearing a religious scarf is going to do the same to you, or take your damn Scooby away.

Grow up.

Cosworth427

------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd say everyone who has so far contributed should be applauded for having a view of whatever type and having the motivation to share it with others.
The majority of people on here seem to prefer vacuous tripe about soap operas and bitching about the penalties for whatever law they last broke (while of course being robust defenders of the system in general). While I concede that there is a place for that type of cr*p here on the board, there is equally a place for this debate."
------------------------------------------------------------------


Wrong.

This is just an opportunity for a few (not all) people who has no clue about an issue they feel threatened by, to place their ignorance up on a pedestal.

Opinions have no meaning to me if they are not back up by facts.

TelBoy

FFS, does this *have* to be an insult thread??

Can we TRY and keep personal agendas out of this?

Try this one. If there's no default religion in the UK (and without going into the complexities of the UK constitution and the Church of England), when do we become "Christians"?

The first time we state it on a census? How is "Christinaity" measured?

Cosworth427

"The first time we state it on a census? How is "Christinaity" measured?"

You're asking a question of something beyond the scope of many members in here. Which will then lead to more "theories".

I've had enough of this crap. I've heard more informative conversations on a girls night out.


[Edited by Cosworth427 - 12/12/2003 4:25:57 PM]

TelBoy

427, try me/us. Are you Christian?