organic clutch differences
13 January 2004, 06:06 PM
#97
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350 lbft. There is a twin plate option rated to 500 lbft which is still said to be smooth and easy to drive.
This I understand is the highest AP will rate an organic 240mm clutch. AP's raings are notoriously conservative. Bob and Harvey are running IIRC a 310 lbft rated AP item that is fine with a fair bit more than this.
So I've swapped a 450lbft rated clutch (which could be equivalent to the AP 310 lbft?) for a 350 lbft rated clutch
This I understand is the highest AP will rate an organic 240mm clutch. AP's raings are notoriously conservative. Bob and Harvey are running IIRC a 310 lbft rated AP item that is fine with a fair bit more than this.
So I've swapped a 450lbft rated clutch (which could be equivalent to the AP 310 lbft?) for a 350 lbft rated clutch
13 January 2004, 09:07 PM
#101
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AP are widely regarded as clutch and brake experts, as are Daikin/Exedy.
If their maximum ratings for a single plate organic clutch of this size are xxx lbft then it would need something pretty special to better that if you are measuring with the same yardstick. It would also in the light of findings so far require some pretty good evidence to back up such bold claims.
My Lateral clutch will be tested by a friction specialist in due course since I now have an alternative. The results will be posted good or bad. I suspect it will be on a par with AP, STi, Daikin/Exedy, Helix products of a similar type.
If their maximum ratings for a single plate organic clutch of this size are xxx lbft then it would need something pretty special to better that if you are measuring with the same yardstick. It would also in the light of findings so far require some pretty good evidence to back up such bold claims.
My Lateral clutch will be tested by a friction specialist in due course since I now have an alternative. The results will be posted good or bad. I suspect it will be on a par
with AP, STi, Daikin/Exedy, Helix products of a similar type.
13 January 2004, 10:16 PM
#102
Arghh, but what is the all important ( apparently! ) clamping pressure quoted as ..... ?
Edit to say I mean the RCM clutch assay John
[Edited by vulnax999 - 1/13/2004 10:27:22 PM]
Edit to say I mean the RCM clutch assay John
[Edited by vulnax999 - 1/13/2004 10:27:22 PM]
13 January 2004, 11:50 PM
#104
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I had a long reply to post but ive decided not to.. grow up people.. life is much to short..
David
David
14 January 2004, 08:46 AM
#105
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David, I don't understand what is childish about questioning a product's claims which are head and shoulders above the competition? When you start getting data from different sources and friction specialist opinion that the claim is unrealistic it makes sense to investigate. In speccing turbo, engine, clutch and gearbox I've had to do it all twice or more because of bullish claims that have not been realistic.
14 January 2004, 10:03 AM
#106
wrong thread!
Still quite childish. Let the facts speak for themselves, instead of drowning them out with all this other crap.
However, on the face of it the clutch covers are not good. I am wondering if they WERE 1400kg when they left the factory, but the extended periods of time 'overloading' the diaphragm spring has been permanently deformed, loosing the clamping force. It wouldn't be unknown for this to happen due to mateiral issues, increased wear, seating of the spacer ring etc.
Paul
[Edited by Pavlo - 1/14/2004 10:06:43 AM]
Still quite childish. Let the facts speak for themselves, instead of drowning them out with all this other crap.
However, on the face of it the clutch covers are not good. I am wondering if they WERE 1400kg when they left the factory, but the extended periods of time 'overloading' the diaphragm spring has been permanently deformed, loosing the clamping force. It wouldn't be unknown for this to happen due to mateiral issues, increased wear, seating of the spacer ring etc.
Paul
[Edited by Pavlo - 1/14/2004 10:06:43 AM]
14 January 2004, 10:18 AM
#107
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Can a clutch lose 30% of its clamping force after 3000 miles and a test to take the clutch down 8mm for just enough time to read the gauge?
Why is the factory clutch still reading factory clamp after TEN TIMES this mileage over THREE YEARS and the above tests?
Pull the other one!
Why is the factory clutch still reading factory clamp after TEN TIMES this mileage over THREE YEARS and the above tests?
Pull the other one!
14 January 2004, 11:00 AM
#108
John,
What I mean, is that the 'uprating' of the clutch increases the loads on the spring to a level that damages the spring when used.
Heavily loaded springs will lose some of their form in use, at least those which are formed from straight/flat bars or plates.
I am suggesting that the 1400kg force may be too much for the spring, which looks completely standard on the Lateral cover.
Paul
What I mean, is that the 'uprating' of the clutch increases the loads on the spring to a level that damages the spring when used.
Heavily loaded springs will lose some of their form in use, at least those which are formed from straight/flat bars or plates.
I am suggesting that the 1400kg force may be too much for the spring, which looks completely standard on the Lateral cover.
Paul
14 January 2004, 12:23 PM
#110
Perhaps. There are a few options though.
1. Mark is lying and it a bog standard cover - No chance IMHO
2. Manufacturer is lying, and it's a modified cover that isn't tested - unlikely
3. Manufacturer make covers, tests them to give 1400kg with an innacurate test method - possible
4. Manufacturer the long term effects on the spring of the mod, and the clamping force relaxes with time/use/heat - very possible
5. John and mike got some rogue covers - unlikely, they are supposed to be tested.
If it was purely snake oil, why bother with the extra ring, it's a lot of hassle you don't need to go through if you are just lying about the product.
Paul
lying lieing who knows?
[Edited by Pavlo - 1/14/2004 12:27:09 PM]
1. Mark is lying and it a bog standard cover - No chance IMHO
2. Manufacturer is lying, and it's a modified cover that isn't tested - unlikely
3. Manufacturer make covers, tests them to give 1400kg with an innacurate test method - possible
4. Manufacturer the long term effects on the spring of the mod, and the clamping force relaxes with time/use/heat - very possible
5. John and mike got some rogue covers - unlikely, they are supposed to be tested.
If it was purely snake oil, why bother with the extra ring, it's a lot of hassle you don't need to go through if you are just lying about the product.
Paul
lying lieing who knows?
[Edited by Pavlo - 1/14/2004 12:27:09 PM]
14 January 2004, 12:41 PM
#111
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Could be 3 or 4. 1400kg probably is snake oil, c.1000kg as the competition with a conservative 310lbft rating is probably sensible, but more data will be required to confirm this.
Unfortunately, Mark is the one who made the 1400kg and 450 lbft claims, we have seen nothing from the manufacturer. Again, the buck stops with Mark as they are his claims.
There is a pattern developing with very high claims made for very ordinary products. Either Mark should be more discerning and ask the questions and seeing the results himself, or should use more reputable established manufacturers with a proven track record of generous reserve capacity instead of trying to reinvent the wheel himself.
Maybe if I bought AP and Quaife products for example that were rated 100 lbft less they may last better than the talked up stuff I keep breaking. That is why I have ordered a 350 lbft AP clutch.
Unfortunately, Mark is the one who made the 1400kg and 450 lbft claims, we have seen nothing from the manufacturer. Again, the buck stops with Mark as they are his claims.
There is a pattern developing with very high claims made for very ordinary products. Either Mark should be more discerning and ask the questions and seeing the results himself, or should use more reputable established manufacturers with a proven track record of generous reserve capacity instead of trying to reinvent the wheel himself.
Maybe if I bought AP and Quaife products for example that were rated 100 lbft less they may last better than the talked up stuff I keep breaking. That is why I have ordered a 350 lbft AP clutch.
14 January 2004, 01:13 PM
#112
John,
It seems clear you have not heeded my advice.
It's available at all good supermarkets and I think Andy can probably get some cheap too (nothing changes). For optimum reliability would recommend serving it chilled to 4ºC in a nice pint glass, then drink within 10 minutes. Take 4 doses and keep clear of heavy machinery and driving. For uprated results, repeat as required.
Claims are 1400kg, 400ft-lbs and 450hp. Did it ever slip on your car? You said not. But then it's currently only as good as a AP equivalent which also works for around 390ft-lbs and more.
Paul
It seems clear you have not heeded my advice.
It's available at all good supermarkets and I think Andy can probably get some cheap too (nothing changes). For optimum reliability would recommend serving it chilled to 4ºC in a nice pint glass, then drink within 10 minutes. Take 4 doses and keep clear of heavy machinery and driving. For uprated results, repeat as required.
Claims are 1400kg, 400ft-lbs and 450hp. Did it ever slip on your car? You said not. But then it's currently only as good as a AP equivalent which also works for around 390ft-lbs and more.
Paul
14 January 2004, 02:43 PM
#113
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It did slip on my puny 2.0 car but then it only had a few hundred miles on it at the time, when removed it could be seen that it was not fully bedded in.
The Std UK99 clutch I later fitted behaved similarly when it was new.
I can't see how changing the fulcrum point on the spring would overload it ? The force on the pressure plate should be increased due to the leverage but the spring will still have the same deflection. The release bearing is at the original height which suggests this to be the case.
I would be more concerned that the drop off in clamp pressure, with friction plate wear, would be excessive due to the reduced stroke availability of the diaphragm spring.
Andy
The Std UK99 clutch I later fitted behaved similarly when it was new.
I can't see how changing the fulcrum point on the spring would overload it ? The force on the pressure plate should be increased due to the leverage but the spring will still have the same deflection. The release bearing is at the original height which suggests this to be the case.
I would be more concerned that the drop off in clamp pressure, with friction plate wear, would be excessive due to the reduced stroke availability of the diaphragm spring.
Andy
14 January 2004, 02:48 PM
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Just to carry this on..
I had an AP organic Clutch fitted on my car, Pavlo mapped it and as we neared completion the clutch started slipping...
The car was boosting at around 1.7bar at this point.
My car was booked in at power engineering the next afternoon and it was a waste of time going with the AP in.
A friend of mine had a lateral performance clutch fitted in his car and said that i could use it if i removed it from the car and helped him with a rebuild. I removed the engine and clutch for him and removed the AP from mine.
The AP had covered VERY little mileage but had covered IIRC one drag day.... I fitted the LP clutch to my car and the difference was very noticeable. No slipping and the biting point was much closer to the floor than the AP.
Managed to keep my appointment with PE and never had any issues of slip at any point, something that i did have with the AP.
I appreciate that the AP i had may have been a 'dodgy' unit but i felt much more confident with the LP item.
Just to add more fuel to the fire, although it is a paddle cover that i have... the clamping pressure has been tested at 1590kg.
I have the test paperwork which states the force clearly. This is not a LP cover but clamping pressures of this ammount are possible.
Rob
p.s. I should be able to match it up against a std STi unit this evening, may be interesting to see if there is any difference between the two. Although the cover is different on the paddle, the only difference between that and the organic is a thicker disc IIRC. Paul YHM
edited to say that the std STi unit is also a paddle in case that is not clear.
[Edited by tweenierob - 1/14/2004 2:52:50 PM]
I had an AP organic Clutch fitted on my car, Pavlo mapped it and as we neared completion the clutch started slipping...
The car was boosting at around 1.7bar at this point.
My car was booked in at power engineering the next afternoon and it was a waste of time going with the AP in.
A friend of mine had a lateral performance clutch fitted in his car and said that i could use it if i removed it from the car and helped him with a rebuild. I removed the engine and clutch for him and removed the AP from mine.
The AP had covered VERY little mileage but had covered IIRC one drag day.... I fitted the LP clutch to my car and the difference was very noticeable. No slipping and the biting point was much closer to the floor than the AP.
Managed to keep my appointment with PE and never had any issues of slip at any point, something that i did have with the AP.
I appreciate that the AP i had may have been a 'dodgy' unit but i felt much more confident with the LP item.
Just to add more fuel to the fire, although it is a paddle cover that i have... the clamping pressure has been tested at 1590kg.
I have the test paperwork which states the force clearly. This is not a LP cover but clamping pressures of this ammount are possible.
Rob
p.s. I should be able to match it up against a std STi unit this evening, may be interesting to see if there is any difference between the two. Although the cover is different on the paddle, the only difference between that and the organic is a thicker disc IIRC. Paul YHM
edited to say that the std STi unit is also a paddle in case that is not clear.
[Edited by tweenierob - 1/14/2004 2:52:50 PM]
14 January 2004, 02:55 PM
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Paul, you obviously can't read or have a bad memory The advert says 450 lbft and I have the printout in front of me. There is no mention whatsoever of power.
The Roger Clark/AP 350lbft clutch arrived today. I will post pictures later, but when you sit it next to the Lateral 450lbft clutch you could swear the ratings were mixed up. You will see what I mean from the pictures later.
I believe Fuzz's Lateral Clutch is slipping at rather less than 450lbft?
The advert says 450 lbft and I have the printout in front of me. There is no mention whatsoever of power.The Roger Clark/AP 350lbft clutch arrived today. I will post pictures later, but when you sit it next to the Lateral 450lbft clutch you could swear the ratings were mixed up. You will see what I mean from the pictures later.
I believe Fuzz's Lateral Clutch is slipping at rather less than 450lbft?
14 January 2004, 03:02 PM
#116
yes, sorry john, my bad, although I always thought it was 400ft-lb like the box.
If fuzz's clutch is smoking, this suggests heat issues too, organic just isn't designed for such abuse.
higher clamping forces are easier to deal with on the paddle because you need much less travel on the pressure plate due to solid nature of cerametallic section. As such you could in theory increased the pre-load but leave the clutch disengaged at same point, thereby not over stressing spring. Just a thought.
Paul
If fuzz's clutch is smoking, this suggests heat issues too, organic just isn't designed for such abuse.
higher clamping forces are easier to deal with on the paddle because you need much less travel on the pressure plate due to solid nature of cerametallic section. As such you could in theory increased the pre-load but leave the clutch disengaged at same point, thereby not over stressing spring. Just a thought.
Paul
14 January 2004, 10:04 PM
#119
Hi Rob: Which AP Organic are you referring to? There are at least two.
My O/E clutch started slipping during the first mapping session. The mileage was 17,640 when it was replaced 02 May '02. The slip was not as you would normally associate but was barely perceptable with perhaps 150rpm only at around 4.5/5k, perhaps maximum torque area at the time. This was only visible on the rev counter when lifting off the throttle suddenly. The replacement from BRD worked faultlessly until I was at Bruntingthorpe, probably around July, and I would guess about 20 odd thousand mile later when I lost drive. When stripped I found the friction material in as new condition but I had rived out the centre from the clutch, I assume from the torque on take up.
I replaced it with the same AP Organic clutch plate, can`t remember if it came from BRD or John Pye. The day after I replaced it and with about 200 miles on the clock when we got there, Andy and I were on the rollers at Star Performance and I got some irregular results. Later in the day I concluded the clutch had been slipping.
FWIW I had a spare paddle clutch at the time but would not fit it because I reckon the shock load some of these clutches apply to the transmission result in premature gear box failures.
Let us know which clutch you are talking about.
My O/E clutch started slipping during the first mapping session. The mileage was 17,640 when it was replaced 02 May '02. The slip was not as you would normally associate but was barely perceptable with perhaps 150rpm only at around 4.5/5k, perhaps maximum torque area at the time. This was only visible on the rev counter when lifting off the throttle suddenly. The replacement from BRD worked faultlessly until I was at Bruntingthorpe, probably around July, and I would guess about 20 odd thousand mile later when I lost drive. When stripped I found the friction material in as new condition but I had rived out the centre from the clutch, I assume from the torque on take up.
I replaced it with the same AP Organic clutch plate, can`t remember if it came from BRD or John Pye. The day after I replaced it and with about 200 miles on the clock when we got there, Andy and I were on the rollers at Star Performance and I got some irregular results. Later in the day I concluded the clutch had been slipping.
FWIW I had a spare paddle clutch at the time but would not fit it because I reckon the shock load some of these clutches apply to the transmission result in premature gear box failures.
Let us know which clutch you are talking about.