DavidBrown

It's a shame I couldn't make it on Saturday (other commitments blah blah..), but as I'd been on the rollers at Powerstation 3 days earlier, I think I can get away with a direct comparison with my figures.

(any chance of having them added Strong?)

I got 245 BHP @ 5680
and 232 LB/FT @ 5210 (although it's a straight line from 226 LB/FT @ 3000)

98 UK Spec
Blitz Induction
Scoobysport down/mid/rear section
UniChip
97 RON

I see Bob Iles has 2BHP more, but I'll settle for the peace of mind for not having a PE conversion !

WALKER

Great day, thanks to Shaun for the organising!
Quite pleased with me results

241 BHP
237 LBF-FT

Although the PS boys commented on how my boost drops off at around 4700 rpm and that a boost controller could maintain the boost for longer.
Does anybody have any reccomendations on what i should do and what the costs would be.

Cheers

Paul

bob

DavidBrown/
I am certain Paul will put your figs down on the site but will just say it was on a differant day.
Only 2 BHP I better start using 97 Ron instead of the usual 95 Ron I can remap the car back to 97 Ron and fit the Blitz to help the boost.
Still the Torque says it all.
Does your Knocklink show any knock, mind don't. Are we having problems with the PE Phase 1 on UK cars then . Here we go again.
All my love
Bob

Stef

Some very interesting figures.
It's amazing how cars with similar mods show figures that are so different.
For example, Jase's MY99 with full Scorpion sytem and Pipercross induction gets 214bhp/214lbft.
John Parkers car of same year with part Scorpion and ITG filter gets 238bhp/226lbft.
Does this mean that the PX is poo on the rollers or the ITG excels?
I guess the great rolling road debate will continue for quite some time.....

Stef (still in the Astra ).

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Jonathan,

I have only just seen your posts. You question is interesting, however your argument is specious.

The only comparison that can be made is to have cars run back to back - which was the point of Saturday.

Powerstation is a challenging rolling road and I suspect probably an accurate one too.

Your first question - P1 v STi V/VI. As far as I know, the majority of STi Vs that have run at PE have obtained between 290-298bhp, although some of these have had backboxes fitted. My own car, before the Link, produced various readings between 298 and 325BHP, however these runs were not graphed as you know the car was detting.

So a P1 produces around 288bhp on PE, this sounds entirely plausible.

Certainly my 272 at PS feels a lot quicker than my 300+ at PE. Also, I think that s***stirrer Bob with the hat (respect) makes a good point - his car has much more at PE than at PS.

Perhaps a more valid comparison of accelerative capability is to measure the power at the wheels - Paul suggested that the figures between PE and PS are fairly consistent - just a different calculation to estimate flywheel power.

Of course you could take your car to PTS (I think) and I am sure you will be posting around 330bhp and be very pleased.

I hope you are enjoying your P1, I know that I am enjoying my LINKed STi V immensely.

This leads me to my second and final point - my first objective is to get STi performance with UK SUL. I believe that I have acheived this objective. I am now learning how to optimise the LINK as I am currently well inside the performance envelope - in fact I cannot see the edges.

I suspect that a very well sorted LINK car will produce around 300bhp and up to 300ft/lb of torque at PS - only time will tell.

A parting thought would be that a certain car has been fitted with a large amount of kit from MoTEC at much greater expense than the LINK and on the rollers it produces similar figures to my car. Is the owner disappointed - I doubt it - he and a number of others reckon that on the road - where it counts - it is about the fastest road car out there.

Cheers,

David

bob

Stef/
Might be the same as with the STi's. The more you spend on performance mods the less power you get.
What was the prob with the car. Hope you get it back soon.
Bob

Jonathan

Rannoch

According to the web site, most STI V's produce 278-288bhp not over 290. Out of seven tested none in std form none broke 288. Pauls with the same mods as me made 290 with a few more miles on the clock. My old STI V certainly was 280 odd in std form on there.

Not sure I'd agree with your at the wheels comments either. Yours showed 190. Thats on average 9-12 down on a STI V with limited mods on PE's. Tim W was 13 different on PS's as well despite losing a cat.

But I surpose the question is why Link tune it when a WRX with a Unichip is so much more powerfull than both the STI's tested ? Seems you could be at it for years mastering the science of the remap before matching a WRX. What will happen if they tune a later model STI 320 ?.

So if you feel the PS rollers are so accurate, what power do you think a bog std STI gives in the UK ?. Still struggling to believe that with 2k's worth of mods you can even make std figures.

I do realise that in the real world its all about driving, but at least the thread gives us something boring to talk about.

Jonathan

strong

The rest of the UK-car graphs from the dyno day are now on the site.

Car techies may be interested in John Parker's graph because Dirk accidentally overlaid CO% instead of intake pressure on the power and torque curves. (Unfortunately the run wasn't saved so no boost figure available for that one.) The CO% graph shows the usual excessive over-fuelling from the 99MY and newer models.

Paul

Jonathan

Ian

Why such huge differences between Superchips and PS if they are the same.

Jonathan

Craig H

Quality of staff?

IWatkins

Jonathan,

I'm afraid it is the usual answer: operator skill. However easy it looks, running a rolling road isn't. There are so many variables to consider and to get accurate results things like recalibrating the software because of changes to atmospheric pressure, temps etc. have to be done. Having an eye for wheelbase adjustments, tension of tie-down straps etc. all have make a difference. It is simply not a skill you pick up be reading the manual, it does take quite a while to learn to operate them properly. And that is just the rolling road itself, not to mention gas analysis and all the other tools of a rolling road setup.

It is also the same with tuning, if the guy doesn't know (really know) what he is doing then you get fair results (or worse) rather than excellent results.

Cheers

Ian

Adam M

On a first note, what is all this P1 talk about. I have yet to be told how a P1 short of no difflock due to abs and some cosmetic bits is any different from a an
STi V type r.
Why should it perform any differently on the rollers? Is it because prodrive reckon on 280 ps from 97 ron fuel and the sti doesn't?

Someone explain please.

On a second note, having been lucky enough to be taken out in a certain car (see reference above), for me there is no doubting it, I have never been in a faster impreza. In fact I have never been in a faster car and that includes a lot of italian and german "super" cars.

Morays car on the road seems to have no lag ........ever.

Endless surges of torque, even without the als switched on (almost kicked me in the back but not quite ). Can't wait unitl launch control is connected.

I think the most important thing Pete Croney ever taught me is that rolling road figures are only for bragging down the pub and to make you feel better about your purchases. The feel of the car on the road is all that counts and in this department, I would be hard pressed to find a better performing car in all departments.

Noise, looks, grip, handling and performance.

Perhaps it is time I changed my car.

Only waiting in anticpation for 27 psi from anders car. That should be fun.

Although I am unsure if an impreza can ever truly be fun without als.

It will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine!

Jonathan

This months Revs has got the dyno results of 4 Scoobies on probably the latest and hopefully state of the art rollers - Superchips.

Stefs car is on there plus a totally std Scooby, an STI V with SS full system and Blitz. Both Stef and the STI have been on PE's dyno as well. Bearing in mind that they are different times of the year. The PE showed higher bhp on a Dec day by about 8-10bhp, BUT on Stef car Superchips dyno shows higher Torque Figures.

The std Scooby showing 234bhp and 236lbft.
The STI 287bhp and 263lbft
Stefs 250bhp and 244lbft
22B with BPM system & K&N 311bhp and 301lbft.

Seems that its only PS that has such low readings especially on torque. Thats without a visit to PTS or Well Lane.

Jonathan

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Jonathan,

I don't know what will happen if they tune a later STI to 320bhp - you've completely lost me mate.

All I know is that there are LINK cars out there with graphs of 330bhp and 380ft/lbs of torque....

R

Jonathan

Rannoch

What I'm saying is that if PS tune an STI with the Unichip they will probably produce 320bhp odd bhp. The Unichip seems to be a better product on their Rollers. They can get a WRX upto over 300bhp where your STI V with similar mods is way behind. Give them your car and no doubt it will easily break the 315 barrier.

Funny how their product looks great and the link poor on the Rollers especially since there's a mag article on it.

Jonathan

Craig H

Johnathon,
Superchips may have a state of the art roller but it's no use if they don't have a clue how to use it. The runs were so inconsistent they're fairly unbelievable - they reset the rollers for all the Scoobs. My first run was over 300hp and over 280lb ft. Oh - it's not a full SS system and no blitz.
But like people have said, the power on the dynos doesn't prove anything. I know, that with 280ish hp, right or wrong, I can get to 60 in 4.3, 2 up, full fuel. And can be quicker in a straight line than a 305hp Unichip WRX. Maybe my horses are Shires and Harjs are Shetlands?!!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

....and yet the same tuner says that the fastest road car that they have ever driven is a MoTEC tuned Scoob that they prepared and yet on their own rollers it only puts out 275bhp.

Must consign it to the same rubbish bin as the LINK then

Finally, just to ensure we are comparing like with like - when Harj ran his car on Saturday it produced around 282-283BHP on two runs. It was then that it was discovered that the water injection was not working, so that alone is worth around 20bhp, plus his car is decatted. So overall not really comparing LINK with Unichip is it - is the overall approach to achieving performance.

If you have any further queries regarding the LINK I would suggest that you email Possum Bourne directly - I guess multiple LINK powered Scooby victories can be wrong

I can only reiterate I am immensely happy with my LINK powered Scoob that gets more powerful as each day goes by.

Enjoy you P1.

R

[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 30-05-2000).]

IWatkins

Just for set a few points....

Superchips rolling road equipment is the same as PS's, just a bit cleaner

The MoTeC'ed Sti produced over 300bhp and close to that in torque on Saturday. The previous run of two weeks ago of 275 was caused by the car being run up when very hot and all the safeties came into play.

The MoTeC and Unichip work on both cars was done at PS so it is unlikely that PS would 'fudge' the results so that a Unichip car came out on top don't you think. Especially as the MoTeC kit costs a lot more.

On Saturday, the MoTec'ed car may have had 1 bhp less than the Unichiped car but its torque figures were much higher etc.

There is a lot of talk about cost of mods. etc. What many don't seem to realise is that even standard cars of the same model, year, even production run can make very different power. This can be down to manufactuers tolerances, poor servicing, maybe a dodgy vacuum hose etc. I have seen this again and again, standard cars making massively different figures (as much as 60bhp in some cases). Although the car may drive fine etc. there is something wrong with it. Best to get that sorted beore even thinking about adding bolt on modifications.

There seems to be another misconception, that adding a filter and a backbox will automatically give you a power increase. Not so. Same for lots of other bolt on bits. Unless the car is set-up properly to use these mods. it is likely you will lose power.

I could go on, but I won't.

Cheers

Ian

Stef

Jonathan.

I have to agree with Craig, ignore the Superchips figures as a comparison.
They really didn't seem to know what they were doing, and whilst some of the figures may be correct, some of them certainly aren't (standard Escort Cossie getting 254bhp and 295lb/ft anyone?).
I do think that for a lot of cars the PS rollers give a low torque figure, but what can you do?
My torque has ranged from 214 (PS) to 248 (Superchips).
My bhp from 227 (PS) to 267 (PE).
I believe rollers actually only measure at-wheel figures, and then use software to calculate the flywheel and bhp figures?
Perhaps we should pay more attention to the wheel figures then?
I do think that the rollers at PTS gave the most accurate figures for my car.
Shaun has also ran there, and got figures that he too considered accurate.
Harj ran on the same day and got 350bhp, which I think is fair to say is incorrect,
so even back to back runs on the same dyno can give horribly inaccurate results.
There are so many variables it's mind boggling!
I will be arranging a day at PTS soon for those who live further east to give their cars a run. We'll hopefully get a few cars that ran at PS there as well, which should then give us a broad range of figures from three different rollers.
I'm not sure what this will prove, probably nothing, but hopefully it will shed a bit more light of the topic.

Stef.

MorayMackenzie

Powerstation have had their Sun RAM 2000 rolling road for about 2 years now. The equipment is recalibrated annually. Superchips have recently fitted the same rolling road system. Until Superchips had their system installed, the only other RAM2000 in the UK was Toyota's private one. I suspect Powerstation are better at getting consistent results from their unit.

For information: Powerstation have run an STI III, standard except for a magnex backbox and 95ron unleaded petrol (don't ask!), and it produced 285bhp/252ftlb, which is slightly better than the standard figures, me-thinks, and that's on naff fuel.

The reason my car produced such a low figure on the VFM day was that the inlet temp went from 30degCish to ~65degC during the run... at 50degC a 13% safety boost cut occurred, and a more drastic cut hit it at 60degC. This inlet temp increase does not occur out on real tarmac roads except when stuck in traffic a roadworks. I have data-logged evidence of this, so it isn't guesswork.

I now have (after waiting ages for the kit to arrive) an ERL water injection system fitted. My car ran all the way up on the rolling road with a maximum inlet temp of ~45degC. Cool !

My car made 300bhp on standard management on the same RR. It doesn't register significantly more now! Somehow, I am still very happy with the on-real-road results.


Jonathon,

If you prefer the figures Power Engineering give you, go there, you will get larger numbers to impress easily impressionable persons with. Whatever you do, don't compare your 288bhp and (low?)248ftlb to figures from any other dyno.

I can tell you that my supposed 346bhp phase one conversion felt nothing like as strong as the mere ~300bhp(PS) I have now. But then, I would say that, because I've spent the money and have to try to justify it to everyone in the world... (even though I don't have a warrantee with it ).


Tim W,

Glad you were entertained!

Moray

RESSE

iTrader: (1)

I missed the Powerstation Day on Saturday due to work commitments and then in the afternoon I pranged the front of my 1994 WRX into the back of a Honda Accord at some traffic lights (my fault). At 10 mph I know require new bonnet, bumper, headlights and grille, and have ordered all the parts from Revolution (approx £1,800) seems expensive but will transform the front of a 1994 car to look like a 2000 model - will let you know what it looks like!

Beef

Just a quick question: Would at-wheel figures be comparable between dyno's? Like Stef said, it's the at-wheel figure that counts, just ask that 300bhp GTiR (175 at the wheels). I know our guys only really use wheel figures, because as hard as it may be to calculate flywheel numbers from wheel figures, it's far harder with an auto!

I have an excellent e-mail describing the details of how dyno's work and the such which is probably highly relevant to this discussion. If anyone is interested in it, I'll happily mail it to them.

MorayMackenzie

Beef,

What sort of at the wheel figures to supies get for what level of tune?

Moray

steve McCulloch

I have skim read most of this - but one thing that needs to be stresses very strongly and especially to Jonathon and Rannoch (Rannoch knows!) is:

I noted that an sti with a unichip produced more power than the link - I also noted that the unichip was boosting higher - the same was true of the cars with the most power on the day - eg Moray's was boosting to 1.4 bar and tailing off - mine was boosting to 1.286bar (I know that it boosts to this on settling! - which pretty much equates to the Powerstation figures on my graph) - I did test out the Power station rollers by using a restrictor - which I know causes the boost to rise to about 1.5 bar, for a short period - whihc also showed up on the rollers - I reckon therefore that the boost is reasonably accurate - though I had my doubt on a previous run, when I know the boost figures were low - but it must be the way the boost spoolers up on the rollers

If the Link cars are mapped to the same boost as the Unichip I am confident they will produce similar figures, on similar spec cars.

Bob Rawle maps the boost conservatively to minimise engine problems - around 1.3 bar in fact, whereas Powerstation take the Unichip to about 1.4 bar - and hence more power!

Hence I am not too worried about the result on my car. I know that the Link gives far superior performance - which calls into question what a standard sti5 produces - my guess about 245 hp and about 230lbs torque - I will be very interested to see a standard P1 go on there (as well as a standard Sti5) I have not heard anything to suggest that the power figures on the P1 will be any different to an sti 5.

Stef

I can feel a 'Unichip vs Link' meet at The Pod coming up.....

Stef.

Beef

We don't know, as we did a day at PE, and they couldn't cope with anything above 300rwhp. This is what we know though (all PE numbers, all wheel numbers):

My motor (auto MK3T), at PS, put down 155@4300 (run aborted early - still climbing - maybe as high as 165rwhp at 5800?)

if I added an air-filter and bleeder-T, and remove fuel-cut, I'd be looking at about 195.

If I lose the cats, and add a boost controller, I'd have 230 to play with.

A stock jap auto TT will put roughly 245 down.

Filter and exhaust add about 20rwhp (to 265)

Whip off the cats, add a boost controller, remove fuel cut, and lob WI in there, and you'll put down about 300.

After that though, it's guess-work, and I don't want to post inaccurate figures. We are still looking for a good RR capable of up to a true 400rwhp, not using any clever tricks to guess power.

[This message has been edited by Beef (edited 30-05-2000).]

IWatkins

Stef,

No you have it all wrong...

MoTeC vs Unichip vs Link vs Standard

Cheers

Ian

DavidBrown

STEVE: That's not true.

Powerstation mapped my car to a far more conservative 1.0 - 1.1 Bar and still yielded 245 BHP on their rolling road last week ('98 UK spec).

Now if they'd mapped it higher.. well..

[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 30-05-2000).]

Jonathan

I dont think my P1 is more powerfull than an STI if anything it will be a little down. Secondly I understand that 288 on one Rollers canont be equated to any others and in the end are really only about gains made after mods.

I would imagine that my P1 will give 250bhp and 230lb ft on there in std form. However if this was a correct reading I could sue IM ?. Under the Trade Descriptions act 276 should be a minimum. Vauxhall had problems with the 156bhp Astra GTE not always making the numbers and took it down to 150 (or so I was told).

Hoping to get to PS very soon to see.

Jonathan

Stef

Ian.

MoTeC????
Are you saying that Moray's finally coming to The Pod???

Stef.