R19KET

Ian,

You have had more WI experience than most, what would the explanation be for a car GAINING 20bhp, when the WI is turned on. This seems very odd, and the reverse of what would be expected.

Mark.

Shaun

Right then you chokers....let the slagging begin!!!!!!!!

You've ALL been lucky up to now, as I have only just come back off holiday since Saturday

Here we go then....

I had feedback from many that attended, who stated it was the best Scooby gathering that they had attended...Great, cause that was the idea!!! The fact that REDLINE was covering it and it was a cheap way of getting your car on a dyno, was a double bonus!

It's all been mentioned before, but as far as the results are concerned, as with the VFM day, they are all relevant (whether they are absolutley correct or not!)

So who got the best/worst/best guessed figures then?

BEST (Officially) = Harj 302/268
WORST = Jason Cooper 214/214
BEST GUESSED = Charles Mallion

Not to harp on about the best tuning products, BUT in the top four figures 3 of them were from UNICHIP cars (Harj, Jon Hughes and myself) . Also not to HARP on again BUT, I had the best performing car of the day for mods. My car had run 236/214 at PS early on in the year with a performance cat back system and HKS induction kit, but since a Mongoose turbo back exhaust and unichip has been fitted (Oh, and the map adjusted since the VFM day ), it then produced 279/246 . That is a massive increase of 43bhp/31ftlb , and that's still with boost problems!!!!!!!! So when a 94WRX (240ps on 100 octane) is beating a Possum linked equiped STI, well........

Wait until I get the same TURBO as Moray and WI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The feature will be in August's edition and I have been told it will command in excess of 4-6 pages

I am pleased to say that I WILL be in most of the photo's, after I found my vocation in life, by sitting in the car's boots as they ran

Johnathon
---------
Don't ask me why my paw figures was high, but on comparitive runs at PS I have ran:-

282bhp @ flywheel / 213.5 @ wheels.
265bhp @ flywheel / 192.0 @ wheels.

Comparing this against Sat's figures
279bhp @ flywheel / 212.5 @ wheels.

They all seem very comparable to me

Jon Hughes was the MOST p1ssed off person of the day.......as he was beaten by Harj, at the last minute!!!!!! Unlucky Jonhny babes - first the spod and now this eh! John sell it NOW!!!!

It was good to meet everyone, and I hope you will all (and more!!!) attend the next one to be held in OCTOBER/NOVEMBER!! Get modifying!!!!!!!!

Shaun.

JON HUGHES

Steve M
I think you are refering to the white sti 5dr when you are talking about 1.4bar of boost...

I did not want to get drawn into a which is better argument,but I must clear a few things up.

My unichip was fitted by Interpro(internovice) it was taken to ps to have the fueling sorted out about 6 months ago,which is when I realised how good these guys are

Water injection was fitted the day before but there was no time to remap the car,so I think i've lost some power since the last time I was there

The car is booked into ps next friday so hopefully I will have some more power,I mean if they can get 303bhp @1.35bar from a wrx I'm sure they can do the same for an sti.

Not taking anything away fron you Harj you ran a blinder

PS MoTeC RULE!!

Jon


[This message has been edited by JON HUGHES (edited 30-05-2000).]

JON HUGHES

Shuaneee!!
SHUT IT

Good day though...

Shaun

Jon



[This message has been edited by Shaun (edited 30-05-2000).]

ARRON BIRD

Perhaps you boys should spend more time going round some corners in your cars!
Subarus are designed for that not pub bull**** power figures. Who cares what power your car is..... I only hope you can actually drive it!

IWatkins

Mark,

I don't want to get drawn into another Water Injection thread (as on 22b.com) but Harj's car can produced 300+ bhp on the rolling road with WI running for the simple reason that WI is cooling intake charge (hence more oxygen) and (if there is any) preventing knock. Simple. Without it, I suggest that the main ECU was winding back the ignition advance becuase it was hearing the slightest amount of det. without the WI running. More details from Harj, I guess.

For specific reasons Harj had water injection fitted, you will have to ask him. But from my own experience, I am quite happy that WI can allow the car to produce more power with a greater margin of safety, whether that be on the road or on the rolling road.

The GT4 is one of the most det. happy cars on the road. When it does det. (or when the ECU, thinks its detting, there is a difference) the ignition is wound back big time, loosing lots of power, very quickly. Not fun when trying to overtake. WI allows me to run the car hard all day without having to worry that at any second the power is going to drop.

Cheers

Ian

[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 30-05-2000).]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Shaun,

we'll just have to make sure that all the top LINK boys are there next time to meet the Unichip crowd on their 'home' ground.

Then you'll have some real competition

R

Shaun

David,

Surely your not throwing the gauntlet down for a Sub-comp of "UNICHIP Vs POSSUM LINK"? , in October/November?????

Better get Master Mapper (a.k.a. Mark Aigin) twiddling his ***** then

Shaun.

strong

Shaun,

How did Charles get the 'best guess'? Did he foresee severe detting and a run cut short at 5700 rpm, or just tell Rich to stop the run when his guessed figure was reached? ;-)

Paul

PS. Mark (R19KET) and Stef could you email me (tried emailing but no reply). I have graphs from the VFM day and since neither of you ran at PS on Saturday I thought it would be worth putting the VFM figures/graph on the dyno site.

[This message has been edited by strong (edited 30-05-2000).]

Shaun

Paul,

Basically HE CHEATED. He had a power run two weeks previous at PS.

steve McCulloch

Dave
Yeah.. I guess your right, but its a hell of a lot more to pay!
I guess I may have gone that option if I did not already have the link on.
Moray would not give me a demonstration in the end... nevermind - and he's the only one I know with a Motec on Scoob.

I like the way that Powerstation reduce the boost through the rev range.
I think I just need a much faster car - but there's not a lot out there.
I know that the scoob is capable of a lot more - I was running 1.7 bar of boost before I took it to Bob to be remapped - but boy did it go - only problem was it had never been set right at the bottom end so was only pulling about 0.5 bar at 4000 revs - It was not detting at all at 1.7 bar - but I was informed that the car's engine would probably have blown up!

chuckster

Ha-Ha, cheated - thats rich.
Last time I ran at PS I got a meagre 262bhp and 241lb/ft - this time I just pressed a hidden 'det now' switch when I reached the desired power. Winning 'best guess' is more important to me than having a working car .
Well, I'm still awaiting word from SUK about my problems, my guess looks like it would have been very conservative had we been able to complete the run, BHP curve hadn't even begun to flatten when we aborted .
Chuck
Expensive deisel now I daren't rev it over 4,000!

chuckster

Shaun, out of interest, how did the results compare with the VFM day? It would be interesting to see how day to day results differ on the same cars on the same rollers.
Charles

R19KET

Ian,

Sorry if you thought I was questioning the 20bhp gain, or Harj's figures, I wasn't.

Whilst the Jecs ECU is very good at winding back the ignition when it senses det', it's very slow to advance it again. Hence the ECU re-set debate. I noticed that the ambient temp was 15deg', so intake temps should have been ok.

Harj:
Is your WI set up for safety, or to allow increased power. Did PS say your car was detting on the first run.

Were the new fans fitted for the dyno day.

Mark.

steve McCulloch

David Brown

I can only comment on what I saw, DOBBO!

Jon Hughes

Yes I know the full story on your car - and yes it was producing more boost - end of story

As far as Moray's car goes its stronger, has a bigger hybrid turbo (£1100 he said) a few other bits and pieces and was running slightly higher boost - as I previously said.

Having spoken to someone who knows the facts somewhat better than I do - I am very happy with my Link - its potential is at least as good as Motec!

I will be having a bench dyno session following a few engine mods - then I 'may' reveal the results!

DavidBrown

Steve: Has anyone given you a proper demonstration of a MoTec ?

Get along to Powerstation and I'm sure Rich will give you a demo.

I was gobsmacked at how sophisticated it was, far far far more advanced than a UniChip or Link. (I have a UniChip in my UK spec machine).

The Motec has so many more USEFUL parameters to tune, that The Link simply can't do what the Motec can.

If you think a Link has the same potential as a Motec, you're very misguided.

If I had an STi, I'd get a Motec.

[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 31-05-2000).]

Mike Rainbird

Dear All,
For those getting confused with the differing results from the different / same rolling roads. I would advise that it is the software that calculates the flywheel figures and if these are different, then so will the results be (even on the same rolling road). For your information, the new rolling road at Superchips is being used to develop their own software that they wish to sell to other rolling road operators! Clive Attowe in Norwich is also helping them with the development on the same rolling road.

However, as can be seen from the results from the Revs shoot-out, a standard Escort Cosworth made an unrealistic 249bhp and 299lb ft (flywheel calculated from at wheel figures of 159bhp and 208 lb ft). Obviously, they have a long way to go in getting accurate "calculations".

For your information, the cars made the following at wheel figures (and calculated flywheel figures in brackets where I have them).
Standard Escort Cosworth 159bhp (249bhp) 208 lbft (299 lbft) - although it did make 305 lbft on one run, but they did three as they couldn't believe the figures themselves and even checked the ECU (on Stef's insistance !).
Standard Sapphire 4x4 124bhp (247bhp!) 166 lbft (280lbft).
Stage 1 chipped Sapphire 4x4 166bhp (285bhp) 191 lbft (294lbft)
Unlimited 3-door 4x4 246bhp (354bhp) 278lbft (371lbft)
Standard UK Impreza 138bhp / 147lb ft
Stef's car 151 bhp (248bhp) 159lbft (248lbft)
STi V5 194 bhp / 195lbft
22B 221bhp (311bhp) / 227lbft (301lbft)

Hope this helps with the results....
Best regards
Mike

Beef

Bloody hell! Does a sapphire 4x4 really lose 125bhp through it's transmission? Seems a little excessive to me...

Shaun

Basically NO!!!!

Just goes to prove how FUBAR the superchips set-up is

Scoobies should be anywhere between high 60's to just in the 80's.

On other several runs I had at PS in my Escort Cossie, I was losing about 100!

This drag coupled with the slow gearchanging/ratio's of the cossie, would go some way to reason why the scooby is that much quicker on getting the power down, with less power!

Shaun.

P.S. But don't forget, U may be losing power through the drag, but you are gaining torque figures. Cossies undoubtable prove to give the better torque per buck!

After Harj had his car RR at PTS, we both phoned Rich to tell him! He said the figures are suspect, and asked me the question "Shaun, you know what 340 bhp feels like, you've had it in REAL figures! Does Harj's car feel as quick as your old cossie?". Of course Rich knew the answer to that one - NO! So, it has been said before, RR figures don't mean SCAT. The on-road performance it where you really feel it. If it feels quick to the driver, that is what counts!!!!!!

I NEED MORE POWER!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Shaun (edited 31-05-2000).]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

David Brown,

as I am merely a learner in the world of ECUs and tuning can you please enlighten me as to what facilities the MoTEC can offer, that would usefully show the extra £1,300 of value on the road.

And before anyone flames me, I am not even remotely suggesting that MoTEC is not the DADDY of ECUs, but I am intrigued as to what extra facilties it offers for an aftermarket tuned road car.

R

Adam M

Rannoch,

How about switchable mapping for 95/97, als and launch control, not to mention higher mapping resolution.

Certainly isn't the best though. Would be interested to see what pectel has to offer.

MorayMackenzie

Steve,

Sorry about the demo, when my car came off the rollers and was ready to go, you had already gone... without even saying goodbye!

Am I right in remembering that you actually paid over £700 for a standard VF22 turbo?

As to the boost... my car hits 1.4bar and then drops gradually to 1.2 as the revs rise.
Overlaying a well mapped link power plot on mine shows the link running at least 3psi more boost and giving about 20bhp less over most of the map. And these cars are very similar in state of tune.

Please don't try to make comparisons about the technical abilities and limits of the Link and the Motec until you have looked into both units in a bit more detail, you may get burnt, so to speak.

I look forward to hearing about your "gone internal" power figures in the future... it's about time someone got around to sorting the sti 5 properly.

Cheers,

Moray

Mike Rainbird

Ah, Pectel, now you're talking... The T6 can run individual maps per CYLINDER, control up to 12 injectors, run ALS, external wastegates, air injectors, traction control and that's with it's eyes closed and hands tied behind it's back Costs £2k (four injector control) plus £600 for the loom. Makes a MoTec look like a ZX Spectrum (Moray thats a JOKE by the way )
LOL
Mike
PS. Where are your dyno results?

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 31-05-2000).]

steve McCulloch

Moray

I was just assuming that you were ignoring me - I was getting tired - having been around for about 7 hours!

As far as your car goes - the power difference is interesting - are you saying that you have compared a map against a similar sti3 running identical mods, but that one is Motec and the other is Link - If this is the case I am not aware of anyone running the same hybrid as you on the sti3.

I think that someone had a fairly standard sti2 producing 278hp, higher than mine - clearly the older engines are much better - I would not have had to change the Turbo if I'd have had an older car I guess.

Yes I paid just over £700 for a VF22 - and this was significantly cheaper than anyone else - Universal Turbo's wanting about £825, and others who have recently posted I recall asking about £790 - so I reckon I got a reasonable deal - perhaps I should speak to yourself first to get a good deal on something else? - so what do you think I should sell the VF28 for? with about 10k miles on it?

As far as making comparisons on Link and Motec I cant make technical comparisons as I dont know much about the Motec or the Link - I do know that antilag etc can be added onto the link if required.


Rgds
Steve
PS - any chance of that Test drive then - so I can get a 'before' and after comparison?

bob

For those who wanted to know the difference between days at PS
Day 1: hot and got 243 BHP 247 lbs/ft at wheels 158 BHP
Day 2: cold & rainy 246 BHP 254 lbs/ft at wheels 154. BHP
Difference: 3 BHP and 7 lbs/ft but at wheels 4 BHP in favor of sunny day?
Stef & Beef
My last run at PE was 172 at the wheels. The car has not been changed.
I get 154 at PS on my last run. If the two companies give this much difference with the at wheels figures then the power at flywheel has no chance of being anywhere near accurate.
I would have thought that the at the wheel figures would be easily obtained but looks like they cannot even get this right. I am not saying one company is right and the other wrong.
Jonathan
As your BHP figures are about the same as mine at PE, I would have thought you would get about the same figures as mine. Your estimation of 250 BHP for a P1 is a bit on the high side. See your solicitor and start the paperwork now.
Bob


[This message has been edited by bob (edited 31-05-2000).]

MorayMackenzie

Hi Mike,

Glad you could drop in.

Do you fit a lambda sensor on each cylinder's exhaust whilst mapping the pectel on a per cylinder basis?

My dyno results are fine, thanks for asking about them.

Moray

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Adam,

my comment on 97/95 is that it won't do it per se - but on the assumption that you would only use 95 in emergencies it would be possible to reduce boost and retard ignition very quickly.

In terms of the majority of road cars this is the only feature of the MoTEC that I would rate for day to day use.

ALS and Launch are amazing features, but not one that many of us would have fitted to our day to day cars. Moray excepted

My comment regarding the granualarity of MoTEC tuning - fully accepted - but there are very few people with the capability to take advantage of this - and most of them would do it on a bench dyno to squeeze out the ultimate from this increased precision...

...and there is a story about LINK v MoTEC on a bench dyno on a Scooby engine, where the LINK actually did proportionally better . Close on power and much less boost.

You pays your money, you takes your choice

R

Mike Rainbird

Moray,
I'll play your game - I couldn't possibly comment on that at the moment .....

Were you and Jay seperated at birth - you love picking other people's brains, but don't like divulging any information in return!
LOL
Mike

Trout

iTrader: (1)

David B - wot still no response - or are you taking the fifth as Moray has suggested

Adam M - as far as I know the Link can offer ALS and Launch, although not 97/95 switching - the latter could be acheived pretty quickly with the hand held unit

Don't forget it was Scooby rallying that gave birth to the LINK - so it does need the rallying features.

Mike R - Pectel sounds great - expecially if you have a bench dyno in your back garden...

...you do!

R