Group buys hurt the Subaru scene?
21 January 2004, 09:47 AM
#32
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Paul, don't forget that the vast vast majority of Scooby owners aren't as technical as you and wouldn't know how to go about fitting new parts themselves. There's always a DIY scene - and it's certainly very active on here. Perhaps for that reason it's easy to overestimate its size as a proportion of the UK market?
21 January 2004, 10:00 AM
#33
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Perhaps James, but I am not saying it will happen, but I think it's possibly.
For instance, 20 FMIC kits on a group buy, that would have otherwise been perhaps been bought from uk suppliers, is a loss of maybe £4000k profit in total from the UK.
that's just one group buy (parts 1 & 2).
then there's the GEMS group buys, how much is this going to cost someone like Bob Rawle or Scoobymania?
Paul
For instance, 20 FMIC kits on a group buy, that would have otherwise been perhaps been bought from uk suppliers, is a loss of maybe £4000k profit in total from the UK.
that's just one group buy (parts 1 & 2).
then there's the GEMS group buys, how much is this going to cost someone like Bob Rawle or Scoobymania?
Paul
21 January 2004, 11:04 AM
#34
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As we are talking about ECUs can someone exlplain why it cost 500 to 700 pounds for one of these tuners in the UK to remap a standard ECU? and then you have to hand your one over aswell or face a 300 quid surcharge. If this is not the tuners pricing themelves out of the market then they only have themselves to blame, I can get my ECU remapped over here for the cost of the mappers time, I also have a TEK 2 which at one stage had to have a licence attached to it which obviously cost money but why does a remap cost so much more considering you can flash these ECUs time and time again without paying licence fees.
21 January 2004, 11:23 AM
#35
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Wurzel,
What are you talking about?
£300 surcharge?
Are you sure you don't mean having to pay £300 extra if you don't supply an ECU to be remapped, the £300 covering the cost of supplying a new, extra ECU?
Paul
What are you talking about?
£300 surcharge?
Are you sure you don't mean having to pay £300 extra if you don't supply an ECU to be remapped, the £300 covering the cost of supplying a new, extra ECU?
Paul
21 January 2004, 11:48 AM
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This is what I am talking about!
Tek 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 01-03 cars)
Price: £650.00 (£763.75 inc.VAT) - £300 = £463.75 - 17.5% = £382.59
Tek 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 99-00 UK Turbo cars)
Price: £625.00 (£734.38 inc.VAT) - £300 = £434.38 - 17.5% = £358.36
Phase 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 97-98 UK Turbo cars)
Price: £625.00 (£734.38 inc.VAT) - £300 = £434.38 - 17.5% = £358.36
ok so your saying that the £300 is the cost of just the ECU
so after the supplier/dealer/tuner has paid the VAT they still make over £350.00 on a remap which in TEK 2 is standard off the shelf even mail order.
I have no idea what a licence costs per ecu but it can not be over £100 surely and as this is only a 1 time outlay due to further remaps not needing to pay a licence fee.
Tek 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 01-03 cars)
Price: £650.00 (£763.75 inc.VAT) - £300 = £463.75 - 17.5% = £382.59
Tek 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 99-00 UK Turbo cars)
Price: £625.00 (£734.38 inc.VAT) - £300 = £434.38 - 17.5% = £358.36
Phase 2 ECU Upgrade (MY 97-98 UK Turbo cars)
Price: £625.00 (£734.38 inc.VAT) - £300 = £434.38 - 17.5% = £358.36
ok so your saying that the £300 is the cost of just the ECU
so after the supplier/dealer/tuner has paid the VAT they still make over £350.00 on a remap which in TEK 2 is standard off the shelf even mail order.
I have no idea what a licence costs per ecu but it can not be over £100 surely and as this is only a 1 time outlay due to further remaps not needing to pay a licence fee.
21 January 2004, 03:51 PM
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I would have thought the issue of a group buy would work for the supplier and buyer in the following manner.
Sell one item and make £20 profit
Sell 10 of the same item and look to make £18 per unit making a guaranteed total of £180 profit. the buyer is happy as he percieves that he may be getting a slightly better deal that originally advertised (say he was looking to buy individually). The supplier could decline the proposal of a group buy and hope that he gets 10 individual buyers. As a nation we tend not to haggle on prices in certain situations, compare buying a house to a dvd player. In general I would suggest that most people would put in an offer under the asking price but would pay Dixons the price on the label for a DVD player.
Seems simple to me but maybe life isnt like that
Sell one item and make £20 profit
Sell 10 of the same item and look to make £18 per unit making a guaranteed total of £180 profit. the buyer is happy as he percieves that he may be getting a slightly better deal that originally advertised (say he was looking to buy individually). The supplier could decline the proposal of a group buy and hope that he gets 10 individual buyers. As a nation we tend not to haggle on prices in certain situations, compare buying a house to a dvd player. In general I would suggest that most people would put in an offer under the asking price but would pay Dixons the price on the label for a DVD player.
Seems simple to me but maybe life isnt like that
21 January 2004, 03:55 PM
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I think it's a valid point and Boxerflat4 has seen the potential consequences from the sharp end, as have I.
The most damaging imo are the group buys abroad, products from Aus or the US, although those conducted in the UK purely end up being a dutch auction, with rival companies cutting their own throats to get the deal - consumer is happy though - until stuff doesn't turn up and theres no service to speak of
What'll happen is the main suppliers go out of business, there will be left some companies operating at miniscule profits who can't offer any service, so everyone loses.
Mr Doom n Gloom
The most damaging imo are the group buys abroad, products from Aus or the US, although those conducted in the UK purely end up being a dutch auction, with rival companies cutting their own throats to get the deal - consumer is happy though - until stuff doesn't turn up and theres no service to speak of
What'll happen is the main suppliers go out of business, there will be left some companies operating at miniscule profits who can't offer any service, so everyone loses.
Mr Doom n Gloom
21 January 2004, 05:47 PM
#42
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I would have thought the issue of a group buy would work for the supplier and buyer in the following manner.
Sell one item and make £20 profit
Sell 10 of the same item and look to make £18 per unit making a guaranteed total of £180 profit. the buyer is happy as he percieves that he may be getting a slightly better deal that originally advertised (say he was looking to buy individually). The supplier could decline the proposal of a group buy and hope that he gets 10 individual buyers. As a nation we tend not to haggle on prices in certain situations, compare buying a house to a dvd player. In general I would suggest that most people would put in an offer under the asking price but would pay Dixons the price on the label for a DVD player.
Seems simple to me but maybe life isnt like that
Sell one item and make £20 profit
Sell 10 of the same item and look to make £18 per unit making a guaranteed total of £180 profit. the buyer is happy as he percieves that he may be getting a slightly better deal that originally advertised (say he was looking to buy individually). The supplier could decline the proposal of a group buy and hope that he gets 10 individual buyers. As a nation we tend not to haggle on prices in certain situations, compare buying a house to a dvd player. In general I would suggest that most people would put in an offer under the asking price but would pay Dixons the price on the label for a DVD player.
Seems simple to me but maybe life isnt like that
I think the situation looks worse than it is as the dollar is so weak. If the exchange rate was at say 1.45 like it was a few years ago and not 1.85 like now, these group buys would be no better then could be provided by a UK supplier selling UK stock.
A good example is the US short blocks. They are stupid cheap, probably because Subaru of America has lower trade prices that IM in the uk (no big surprise), then add the exchange rate in, no tax or reduced tax because of creative invoicing, and you have a happy subaru dealer selling 10 more blocks than he would, happer group buyers, but anyone that sells short engines of any sort in the UK is stuffed. However 6 speed gearboxes are the opposite, they are $$$$ in the US but relatively cheap here.
Paul
21 January 2004, 06:40 PM
#43
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Some interesting points here. One of the maxims I like to use in sales is that there is always someone willing to supply products cheaper than you can. The point being, don't sell on price - anyone can do that.
Will Group Buys hurt the Subaru scene? It depends on how you look at it. At present, American sourced products look cheap (as Paulo has pointed out, there are good reasons for it) but this will not always be the case. There is also a significant majority of people like myself who either don't have the time or the knowledge to fit these products and are quite happy to pay higher prices to get expert advice and the work done for them -with the added piece of mind that if parts are faulty then we have some come back on the supplier.
What may happen is that Group Buys sort out the wheat from the chaff. Good quality suppliers such as Xtreme Scoobies,TSL and Powerstation have given me good advice, don't rip me off by trying to sell me crap which is why I go back to them. My advice to any supplier who's market is price sensitive would be to differentiate themselves from the competition and go upmarket. It's hard work but they can improve their margins and offer a far better service/product and a vastly superior customer service. That being the case, I expect to see these suppliers around in a few years time and some of the pile it high - sell it cheap guys won't last.
Again, when you are buying a brand you are buying a promise and that's why people buy BMW, Mercedes etc despite the fact that there are far cheaper cars on the market.
Also, bare in mind that many people are running company cars or need the benefits of an intact warranty so the fitting of aftermarket products is not an option and that's why the well developed products such as those of Prodrive sell in such quantities.
Will Group Buys hurt the Subaru scene? It depends on how you look at it. At present, American sourced products look cheap (as Paulo has pointed out, there are good reasons for it) but this will not always be the case. There is also a significant majority of people like myself who either don't have the time or the knowledge to fit these products and are quite happy to pay higher prices to get expert advice and the work done for them -with the added piece of mind that if parts are faulty then we have some come back on the supplier.
What may happen is that Group Buys sort out the wheat from the chaff. Good quality suppliers such as Xtreme Scoobies,TSL and Powerstation have given me good advice, don't rip me off by trying to sell me crap which is why I go back to them. My advice to any supplier who's market is price sensitive would be to differentiate themselves from the competition and go upmarket. It's hard work but they can improve their margins and offer a far better service/product and a vastly superior customer service. That being the case, I expect to see these suppliers around in a few years time and some of the pile it high - sell it cheap guys won't last.
Again, when you are buying a brand you are buying a promise and that's why people buy BMW, Mercedes etc despite the fact that there are far cheaper cars on the market.
Also, bare in mind that many people are running company cars or need the benefits of an intact warranty so the fitting of aftermarket products is not an option and that's why the well developed products such as those of Prodrive sell in such quantities.
21 January 2004, 10:43 PM
#44
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An interesting thread......, my two peneth follows. Its not meant as more than my opinion.
as an advocate of group buys i would point out that as Imprezas were sold in the uk in '99 for about 22k. This was already a good deal in my opinion but in Japan these cars were available at a lower cost and with a higher specification as standard. A 'Cheap car' for the performance, so why so expensive to modify?
As these cars grew in popularity various 'motorsport' companies sprang up who were willing to tune and service etc these cars. Soon after this (when i dont know) scooby net and other websites with owner interest at heart arrived on the scene. These sites,as far as i can gather, were set up to help owners who wished to service, tune or at least have some interest in, other than instructing dealers, their cars.
Group buys on scoobynet (forums for the enthusiast owner) enable this type of owner to obtain parts at more reasonable prices, should they wish to take on the research, importing, longer wait (other than in stock in UK ie Uk supplier)doing fitting work themselves etc.
They should also encorage competion beyond other trades, within 'motorsport'. This should make the best and most poular survive and the worst and least liked dissapear.
The above points are reason why I believe the Group Buy thing is a good thing for the future of scoobynet and scooby owners.
But never fear all ye good and helpfull suppliers, there will always be people who have no time to spend modifying themselves, and more money than I at present. They, as I have done in the past, will pay a premium to have the work carried out for them.
my two peneth.......
Hacmeister
as an advocate of group buys i would point out that as Imprezas were sold in the uk in '99 for about 22k. This was already a good deal in my opinion but in Japan these cars were available at a lower cost and with a higher specification as standard. A 'Cheap car' for the performance, so why so expensive to modify?
As these cars grew in popularity various 'motorsport' companies sprang up who were willing to tune and service etc these cars. Soon after this (when i dont know) scooby net and other websites with owner interest at heart arrived on the scene. These sites,as far as i can gather, were set up to help owners who wished to service, tune or at least have some interest in, other than instructing dealers, their cars.
Group buys on scoobynet (forums for the enthusiast owner) enable this type of owner to obtain parts at more reasonable prices, should they wish to take on the research, importing, longer wait (other than in stock in UK ie Uk supplier)doing fitting work themselves etc.
They should also encorage competion beyond other trades, within 'motorsport'. This should make the best and most poular survive and the worst and least liked dissapear.
The above points are reason why I believe the Group Buy thing is a good thing for the future of scoobynet and scooby owners.
But never fear all ye good and helpfull suppliers, there will always be people who have no time to spend modifying themselves, and more money than I at present. They, as I have done in the past, will pay a premium to have the work carried out for them.
my two peneth.......
Hacmeister
23 January 2004, 12:51 AM
#46
Paul: Injectors arrived 07:30 Thursday thanks.
You refer to the Hybrid FMIC group buy. This will result in the import of about 30# FMICs. A large proportion of the buyers would not have/be purchasing FMICs if they had to pay circa £1100. Around £550 or less unpolished is a cracking deal for Scooby Net participating members. Benefitting members with knowledge, deals and other assistance is one of the objectives of this board. My allegiance is to our members and if people want to be suppliers it is up to them to be satisfactorily adept to survive in a fast changing market place. I firmly believe that some products are over priced on the basis that they are for Subarus and their owners are daft enough to pay over the odds for the name/label.
Coupled with the Hybrid G.B. is a G.B. for FSE fuel pressure regulators, organised through a U.K. company. (AS Performance) so they have a number of sales they would not otherwise have had. I hope the effect of all this is to reduce prices in the U.K. for Scooby nuts.
Now does this damage the established U.K. suppliers. If they supply FMICs? YES.
However, individuals will not stop market forces, so from time to time these G.B.s will take place and the supply companies have to accept that. Some will fall by the wayside because they do not have a broad enough base or cannot keep up with the changing market environment. Look at it this way, the world is becoming a smaller place and I can order gear from Australia, US, Canada or Japan on a Monday and have it on my car the following week-end. Similarly, international corporations will move their call centres from the U.K. to India to remain competitive and survive.
Now a question and in no way a dig: What is the difference between a G.B. for FMICs and deciding to buy three sets of injectors from Japan or three engine management systems from Australia, shared amongst like minded friends.???
Cutting out suppliers that cannot survive and having internationally competitive prices will happen regardless of our views on the subject and personally I believe that can only be to our benefit.
You refer to the Hybrid FMIC group buy. This will result in the import of about 30# FMICs. A large proportion of the buyers would not have/be purchasing FMICs if they had to pay circa £1100. Around £550 or less unpolished is a cracking deal for Scooby Net participating members. Benefitting members with knowledge, deals and other assistance is one of the objectives of this board. My allegiance is to our members and if people want to be suppliers it is up to them to be satisfactorily adept to survive in a fast changing market place. I firmly believe that some products are over priced on the basis that they are for Subarus and their owners are daft enough to pay over the odds for the name/label.
Coupled with the Hybrid G.B. is a G.B. for FSE fuel pressure regulators, organised through a U.K. company. (AS Performance) so they have a number of sales they would not otherwise have had. I hope the effect of all this is to reduce prices in the U.K. for Scooby nuts.
Now does this damage the established U.K. suppliers. If they supply FMICs? YES.
However, individuals will not stop market forces, so from time to time these G.B.s will take place and the supply companies have to accept that. Some will fall by the wayside because they do not have a broad enough base or cannot keep up with the changing market environment. Look at it this way, the world is becoming a smaller place and I can order gear from Australia, US, Canada or Japan on a Monday and have it on my car the following week-end. Similarly, international corporations will move their call centres from the U.K. to India to remain competitive and survive.
Now a question and in no way a dig: What is the difference between a G.B. for FMICs and deciding to buy three sets of injectors from Japan or three engine management systems from Australia, shared amongst like minded friends.???
Cutting out suppliers that cannot survive and having internationally competitive prices will happen regardless of our views on the subject and personally I believe that can only be to our benefit.
23 January 2004, 09:14 AM
#47
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Harvey,
I have done the exact same thing that I am saying will hurt established traders, yup, you got me!
You raise just the points I was making. The is no difference between group buys and cheap injectors or ECUs from around the world.
Things will obviously not grind to a halt, and I don't think this will affect traders like Demon Tweeks or GGR. But I can see the likes of J-W-Racing having to change the way they work somewhat.
Ultimately it's about selling what can't be purchased anywhere else at any price, whether it be a product or a service or a package of both.
Paul
I have done the exact same thing that I am saying will hurt established traders, yup, you got me!
You raise just the points I was making. The is no difference between group buys and cheap injectors or ECUs from around the world.
Things will obviously not grind to a halt, and I don't think this will affect traders like Demon Tweeks or GGR. But I can see the likes of J-W-Racing having to change the way they work somewhat.
Ultimately it's about selling what can't be purchased anywhere else at any price, whether it be a product or a service or a package of both.
Paul
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