Is a VF22 Turbo......
06 July 2001, 10:15 PM
#31
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Sam,
I think we have to distinguish between "boost", and "power".
Let's suppose you map your car to 1.4bar, the fuelling, ignition, egt's, etc' are correct, and you get power figures of let's say 320bhp/300ftlbs....Then lets say we change the turbo for a massive Garret, sort the fuelling, and mapping out, running the same 1.4bar...but now you get power figures of 360bhp/340ftlbs......are we still OK ?
To be honest, no one appears to know exactly what the MAX safe power the standard internals can handle. We do know that UK cars have standard cast pistons, pretty average strength rods/bolts, and head gaskets..
We know that the STi's have uprated forged type pistons, and steel head gaskets, and they only run 280bhp as standard.....
I think that we need to base the "safe" limits on the power figures, as well as the boost run.
Mark.
I think we have to distinguish between "boost", and "power".
Let's suppose you map your car to 1.4bar, the fuelling, ignition, egt's, etc' are correct, and you get power figures of let's say 320bhp/300ftlbs....Then lets say we change the turbo for a massive Garret, sort the fuelling, and mapping out, running the same 1.4bar...but now you get power figures of 360bhp/340ftlbs......are we still OK ?
To be honest, no one appears to know exactly what the MAX safe power the standard internals can handle. We do know that UK cars have standard cast pistons, pretty average strength rods/bolts, and head gaskets..
We know that the STi's have uprated forged type pistons, and steel head gaskets, and they only run 280bhp as standard.....
I think that we need to base the "safe" limits on the power figures, as well as the boost run.
Mark.
06 July 2001, 10:52 PM
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hi mark
thats fine, but not all sti's have forged pistons, i have actually seen alot of wrx's, sti's and the last one was a WRX RA and even that did not have forged pistons.
and all these cars run 280bhp ? just to add to the confusion. i have not been to falkland performance once over the last 18months without seeing a WRX ( import) engine of some sort in bits and pieces. 
what i am trying to get to here, if a 10-20% safety margin is built into the wrx's that don't run forged pistons and so on then a 310-340bhp is possible if every thing is sorted it out. the way i see it there is a design limit to the 2l flat 4 engine more than components ? maybe
i am running 1.3-1.35bar in the midrange up to 6000rpm only on a UK engine most likely producing over 300bhp by now, so does that mean if i maintain that for anylonger i am going to loose the engine ? :worried: i have been running 1.3 bar for 20k miles now with plenty of track days with no problems.
i am sure now after saying that, my engine will blow up next track day
thats fine, but not all sti's have forged pistons, i have actually seen alot of wrx's, sti's and the last one was a WRX RA and even that did not have forged pistons.
and all these cars run 280bhp ? just to add to the confusion. i have not been to falkland performance once over the last 18months without seeing a WRX ( import) engine of some sort in bits and pieces. what i am trying to get to here, if a 10-20% safety margin is built into the wrx's that don't run forged pistons and so on then a 310-340bhp is possible if every thing is sorted it out. the way i see it there is a design limit to the 2l flat 4 engine more than components ? maybe
i am running 1.3-1.35bar in the midrange up to 6000rpm only on a UK engine most likely producing over 300bhp by now, so does that mean if i maintain that for anylonger i am going to loose the engine ? :worried: i have been running 1.3 bar for 20k miles now with plenty of track days with no problems.
i am sure now after saying that, my engine will blow up next track day
06 July 2001, 11:44 PM
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If not all STI's have forged pistons then Subaru is practicing false advertising. In brochures and magazines that I've seen for Versions 3,5 and 6, forgies are always quoted for STI's. Which STI's don't have forgies? And don't get me wrong I believe you as you've seen the internals with your own eyes. And if it's some STI's of the same models, then it is a lottery for customers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've read.
WREXY.
WREXY.
07 July 2001, 12:10 AM
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Is it possible to do straight injector swap from a MY99 to a MY98 or isn't it that simple?
After reading all of this, I'd quite like the extra safety margin that 440cc injectors offer, even though I'm not running 300bhp.
Stef.
After reading all of this, I'd quite like the extra safety margin that 440cc injectors offer, even though I'm not running 300bhp.
Stef.
07 July 2001, 01:40 AM
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wrexy
subarus seem to have alot of variations between their engines. NOT all sti's have forged pistons most of them should, but then again alot of these cars imported over here with a very vague history so who can tell what happened to them ? maybe the sti i have seen with standard pistons with very large skirts identical to the WRX engine setting beside it had a cheap engine change before arriving over here ? who knows.
mark
craig H has still got his pistons at his home using them as a paper weight i think
maybe you can have a look at them as from his discription they may not have been forged?
actually to my surprise most of the engines that they have had recentely where completely standard running standard boost. i have managed to speak to 2 owners when i was over. one was a type r sti iv blew up doing 7500rpm when in 4th gear and the other which is a wrx ra again blew up on the motorway. pattern ? maybe. saying that the usually have a lot of UK cars but that is usually for gearbox changes
also it is interesting you have mentioned the head gasket. i am thinking of getting it changed along with oil pressure release valve soon. what gasket would you recommend ? just the sti one or is there a better one out there.
subarus seem to have alot of variations between their engines. NOT all sti's have forged pistons most of them should, but then again alot of these cars imported over here with a very vague history so who can tell what happened to them ? maybe the sti i have seen with standard pistons with very large skirts identical to the WRX engine setting beside it had a cheap engine change before arriving over here ? who knows.
mark
craig H has still got his pistons at his home using them as a paper weight i think
maybe you can have a look at them as from his discription they may not have been forged?actually to my surprise most of the engines that they have had recentely where completely standard running standard boost. i have managed to speak to 2 owners when i was over. one was a type r sti iv blew up doing 7500rpm when in 4th gear and the other which is a wrx ra again blew up on the motorway. pattern ? maybe. saying that the usually have a lot of UK cars but that is usually for gearbox changes
also it is interesting you have mentioned the head gasket. i am thinking of getting it changed along with oil pressure release valve soon. what gasket would you recommend ? just the sti one or is there a better one out there.
07 July 2001, 04:15 AM
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22B v Nito
A month or 2 ago I was invited to a Kent meet by Nito.
My 22B was nearly ready, uprated tmic, fuel pump, split fuel lines, hybrid turbo, Prodrive cam timing, Prodrive bearings, BRD downpipe and back box/centre,ScoobySport equal length headers, WRC rods, Cosworth pistons and Farndon crank.
On the road Nito disapeared on the dual carriage way!
On the A and B stuff I was all over him
This is with a Jecs ECU.
Once BRD put the Link in and I have over 50% more torque then the fortune I have spent will reveal itself!
The bottom line is that through happy coincidence and steering clear of re-chippers Nito has an Ffff..ing fast car
A month or 2 ago I was invited to a Kent meet by Nito.
My 22B was nearly ready, uprated tmic, fuel pump, split fuel lines, hybrid turbo, Prodrive cam timing, Prodrive bearings, BRD downpipe and back box/centre,ScoobySport equal length headers, WRC rods, Cosworth pistons and Farndon crank.
On the road Nito disapeared on the dual carriage way!
On the A and B stuff I was all over him
This is with a Jecs ECU.
Once BRD put the Link in and I have over 50% more torque then the fortune I have spent will reveal itself!
The bottom line is that through happy coincidence and steering clear of re-chippers Nito has an Ffff..ing fast car
07 July 2001, 11:28 AM
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Anders,
Thanks for the compliment ...however, it also whooped me on the motorway my girlfriend was driving mine and I was in the new WRX bugzilla wagon hence she must have been bottling it on the country lanes! 
(I keep telling her to stop showing my car up and put her foot down!!)
rgds
Nito
ps..Sam, I was running peaks of 1.35bar on a clang n ball..ambnient was minus 1 or so and inlet temps were 2 degrees. You'd think I'd be fairly well protected from det with large turbine (less heat and FMIC) but that's the only time I've ever got det..oil temps soared and egt's would have been massive- go figure (cooler temps don't necessarily isolate you from det!)!
Also most engines let go at high speeds high revs..more so on sti's which rev to 8k and have shorter gearing. Mine at 155mph was reporting egt's of 955deg at 6k revs holding it for around 30 seconds. Safe Maximum should be around the 930ish so I backed off.
hope this helps,
rgds
Nito
Thanks for the compliment
...however, it also whooped me on the motorway my girlfriend was driving mine and I was in the new WRX bugzilla wagon hence she must have been bottling it on the country lanes! (I keep telling her to stop showing my car up and put her foot down!!)rgds
Nito
ps..Sam, I was running peaks of 1.35bar on a clang n ball..ambnient was minus 1 or so and inlet temps were 2 degrees. You'd think I'd be fairly well protected from det with large turbine (less heat and FMIC) but that's the only time I've ever got det..oil temps soared and egt's would have been massive- go figure (cooler temps don't necessarily isolate you from det!)!
Also most engines let go at high speeds high revs..more so on sti's which rev to 8k and have shorter gearing. Mine at 155mph was reporting egt's of 955deg at 6k revs holding it for around 30 seconds. Safe Maximum should be around the 930ish so I backed off.
hope this helps,
rgds
Nito
07 July 2001, 12:18 PM
#39
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Sam,
WRX's don't have forged pistons (WRX RA's included, unless they were a special order), like you say, all the STi's I've seen the internals of, have had forged pistons though.
The engines are more than capable of handling the power, if the right components are used, put together right, and correctly mapped.
Some of us are always trying to push the envelope. That's fine, that's how we learn about the cars, but at some point something is going to give.....
Now, all these cars you've seen at Falkland (one of the very few companies in Scotland who deal with imports) how many of them are standard, and how many of them have been running higher boost/bhp ?
My personal feeling, is that UK cars should be fine up to about circa 300bhp (done right), after that, I think ones pushing ones luck. If nothing else, I think the standard head gasket is a weak link, and if a head gasket goes, you'll be lucky to escape without a VERY big bill
trust me, I know......
Mark.
WRX's don't have forged pistons (WRX RA's included, unless they were a special order), like you say, all the STi's I've seen the internals of, have had forged pistons though.
The engines are more than capable of handling the power, if the right components are used, put together right, and correctly mapped.
Some of us are always trying to push the envelope. That's fine, that's how we learn about the cars, but at some point something is going to give.....
Now, all these cars you've seen at Falkland (one of the very few companies in Scotland who deal with imports) how many of them are standard, and how many of them have been running higher boost/bhp ?
My personal feeling, is that UK cars should be fine up to about circa 300bhp (done right), after that, I think ones pushing ones luck. If nothing else, I think the standard head gasket is a weak link, and if a head gasket goes, you'll be lucky to escape without a VERY big bill
trust me, I know......Mark.
07 July 2001, 02:02 PM
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Stef,
The fuel rail is different on the my99 cars on..the rail runs through as opposed to above the centre of where the injector plugs in.
Saying this I don't know if the newer injectors could drop straight in. If they can't then I don't think it'd be too much grief putting the newer fuel rail in but it's probably a manifold off job..just the excuse you need to fit an enlarged turbo induction hose
Nito
[This message has been edited by NITO (edited 07 July 2001).]
The fuel rail is different on the my99 cars on..the rail runs through as opposed to above the centre of where the injector plugs in.
Saying this I don't know if the newer injectors could drop straight in. If they can't then I don't think it'd be too much grief putting the newer fuel rail in but it's probably a manifold off job..just the excuse you need to fit an enlarged turbo induction hose
Nito
[This message has been edited by NITO (edited 07 July 2001).]
07 July 2001, 06:38 PM
#41
Phase 2 injectors will not fit earlier cars as the injector design is different as well as the fuel rails. Stef I have a set of 480's for sale (new)if you are interested that would fit and I will have a set of 440's "soon" (Mark ?)
09 July 2001, 12:22 AM
#42
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Turbo Dynamics have been doing VF hybrids for ages, and have loads of experience with them. Mail Bob at BRD for details.
Mark.
Mark.
09 July 2001, 12:55 AM
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Richard,
One more thing. I've heard Prodrive advise against the use of an EBC with their ECU as the PPP is already programmed with increased boost.
WREXY.
One more thing. I've heard Prodrive advise against the use of an EBC with their ECU as the PPP is already programmed with increased boost.
WREXY.
09 July 2001, 11:36 AM
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Nice Thread
While back in Oz earlier this year I was also surprised at the number of bigger turbo/electonic boost controllers were being used.
Is there an Ozzie equivalent of Scoobynet?
I'm *considering* this path on a my00 with PPP - I'm going to fit a lamdalink to check how things are now, but am concerned it only gives accurate readings at low temps....is it useless after this? Is an accurate high-temp lamda sensore available?
Thanks
Richard
While back in Oz earlier this year I was also surprised at the number of bigger turbo/electonic boost controllers were being used.
Is there an Ozzie equivalent of Scoobynet?
I'm *considering* this path on a my00 with PPP - I'm going to fit a lamdalink to check how things are now, but am concerned it only gives accurate readings at low temps....is it useless after this? Is an accurate high-temp lamda sensore available?
Thanks
Richard
09 July 2001, 11:58 AM
#46
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Sheesh!! I ask a simple, innocent question, don't have access to the BBS for a couple of days and when I come back I find that war has broken out 
Seriously, thanks for all your input guys. It's all grist to the mill and I now have plenty to go on to help make my own mind up. I think that I'll stick to my original plan and fit the FMIC first and by that time Turbo Technics should have their hybrid turbo available which will be something else to consider . No doubt that will start another learned discussion some day
Raymond.
Seriously, thanks for all your input guys. It's all grist to the mill and I now have plenty to go on to help make my own mind up. I think that I'll stick to my original plan and fit the FMIC first and by that time Turbo Technics should have their hybrid turbo available which will be something else to consider . No doubt that will start another learned discussion some day Raymond.
09 July 2001, 01:26 PM
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Wrexy,
Up until about a fortnight ago, I ran a PPP ECU along with a HKS EVC 4. There was an improvement over just the PPP ECU.
Since then I have sold my PPP ECU and put the standard one back in. The performance is still on par with what I had before!
After much playing about, and various setups, I think the PPP ECU was a good modification, although I think there are better gains to be had with just a EBC and the standard ECU.
We've talked about boost levels before, so we won't cover that again!
My car with just the PPP ECU was overboosting a lot higher (18.1-18.5psi), than the boost I'm getting my EBC to hold (17.1psi)!
Just so you get an idea with performance figures (the modifications consistant with all the runs are a SS backbox, SS downpipe, Magnex centre, RamPod Induction kit, MRT cold air feed pipe, Prodrive intercooler pipework and Forge recirculating dump valve; also Super Unleaded 97 Octane was used for all runs):
Standard ECU : 255bhp/238lbft
Prodrive ECU : 263bhp/256lbft
These figures were reached on the same day, and the ambient temperature was about 12 celius. Prodrive ECU was run first, so heat soak may have effected the standard ECU figures. Also four or five runs were taken with each ECU, so I expect heat soak to have a knock on effect.
With a slightly higher ambient temperature (12-14 celius), a rolling road test was done with the PPP ECU and the HKS EVC 4. High boost was set to 1.18bar/17.1psi, and the other performance modifications were the same.
Prodrive ECU and HKS EVC: 280bhp/252lbft
There is another rolling road day at the same place (Power Engineering) this weekend, so hopefully I'll get figures for the standard ECU and HKS EVC. I'm expecting them to be down a bit, not because of the ECU change, but rather the higher ambient temperatures!
It will be interesting to compare the PPP ECU, against the standard ECU running an EBC!
Cheers
Andy
[Edited to correct a typo, and mention the use of Super Unleaded]
[This message has been edited by Andy Tang (edited 09 July 2001).]
Up until about a fortnight ago, I ran a PPP ECU along with a HKS EVC 4. There was an improvement over just the PPP ECU.
Since then I have sold my PPP ECU and put the standard one back in. The performance is still on par with what I had before!
After much playing about, and various setups, I think the PPP ECU was a good modification, although I think there are better gains to be had with just a EBC and the standard ECU.
We've talked about boost levels before, so we won't cover that again!
My car with just the PPP ECU was overboosting a lot higher (18.1-18.5psi), than the boost I'm getting my EBC to hold (17.1psi)!
Just so you get an idea with performance figures (the modifications consistant with all the runs are a SS backbox, SS downpipe, Magnex centre, RamPod Induction kit, MRT cold air feed pipe, Prodrive intercooler pipework and Forge recirculating dump valve; also Super Unleaded 97 Octane was used for all runs):
Standard ECU : 255bhp/238lbft
Prodrive ECU : 263bhp/256lbft
These figures were reached on the same day, and the ambient temperature was about 12 celius. Prodrive ECU was run first, so heat soak may have effected the standard ECU figures. Also four or five runs were taken with each ECU, so I expect heat soak to have a knock on effect.
With a slightly higher ambient temperature (12-14 celius), a rolling road test was done with the PPP ECU and the HKS EVC 4. High boost was set to 1.18bar/17.1psi, and the other performance modifications were the same.
Prodrive ECU and HKS EVC: 280bhp/252lbft
There is another rolling road day at the same place (Power Engineering) this weekend, so hopefully I'll get figures for the standard ECU and HKS EVC. I'm expecting them to be down a bit, not because of the ECU change, but rather the higher ambient temperatures!
It will be interesting to compare the PPP ECU, against the standard ECU running an EBC!
Cheers
Andy
[Edited to correct a typo, and mention the use of Super Unleaded]
[This message has been edited by Andy Tang (edited 09 July 2001).]
09 July 2001, 01:38 PM
#48
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Cheers Andy,
Excellent info there m8. That comparison of PPP ECU Vs Standard ECU with the EBC will be great. I had considered getting a PPP ECU for my car with the EBC I'm running. Make sure you let us know the results
Andy Impressive power too may I add.
Cheers,
WREXY.
Excellent info there m8. That comparison of PPP ECU Vs Standard ECU with the EBC will be great. I had considered getting a PPP ECU for my car with the EBC I'm running. Make sure you let us know the results
Andy Impressive power too may I add.
Cheers,
WREXY.
10 July 2001, 09:29 AM
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Richard,
The only thing I've done is have the fuelling checked out on the rolling road. Now I know this isn't suffient really, and I should have fitted a LamdaLink! A KnockLink has been fitted, but I don't know if the car is running dangerously lean or not!!
Plans are a foot to remove the EVC anyway! I plan on getting big reliable power, but more information when it's done!!
Cheers
Andy
The only thing I've done is have the fuelling checked out on the rolling road. Now I know this isn't suffient really, and I should have fitted a LamdaLink! A KnockLink has been fitted, but I don't know if the car is running dangerously lean or not!!
Plans are a foot to remove the EVC anyway! I plan on getting big reliable power, but more information when it's done!!
Cheers
Andy
10 July 2001, 01:42 PM
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Hi Andy
I'll give you £50 for the evc
I've got the lamdalink, but haven't fitted it 'cos I'm not actually sure of it's value - isn't the lamda sensor wildly inaccurate at anything above cruise revs (certainly the ecu doesn't use it on full boost)?
Bye
Richard
I'll give you £50 for the evc
I've got the lamdalink, but haven't fitted it 'cos I'm not actually sure of it's value - isn't the lamda sensor wildly inaccurate at anything above cruise revs (certainly the ecu doesn't use it on full boost
)?Bye
Richard
10 July 2001, 01:52 PM
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The lambda sensor isnt wildly innaccurate above cruise, but it is true the hotter it gets the worse it is.
Is still useful, and a good indicator for a little bit of extra piece of mind.
Is still useful, and a good indicator for a little bit of extra piece of mind.
10 July 2001, 03:40 PM
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Hi Adam
Yes, but can I risk my engine on it?! How far out is it, and does it tell you things are better than they really are or worse?
I'm considering using an EBC of some sort, but before I do want a more accurate way of measuring mixture....I currently rely on knocklink....which requires that I lift off in time
Thanks
Richard
Yes, but can I risk my engine on it?! How far out is it, and does it tell you things are better than they really are or worse?
I'm considering using an EBC of some sort, but before I do want a more accurate way of measuring mixture....I currently rely on knocklink....which requires that I lift off in time
Thanks
Richard
10 July 2001, 03:55 PM
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I am told by the great mark aigin (all hail) that when hot the lambda sensor reads lean.
This means that even if it gives you false information, it will still be safe information for you to act on.
If fitting an evc, then tere is no harm in having more warning if it does start to run lean should you up the boost (which I would not expect).
that when hot the lambda sensor reads lean.This means that even if it gives you false information, it will still be safe information for you to act on.
If fitting an evc, then tere is no harm in having more warning if it does start to run lean should you up the boost (which I would not expect).
10 July 2001, 05:00 PM
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Hi,
For safety, our US collegues favour an exhaust gas temperature sensor placed in the header from no.3 cylinder (hottest on Phase 1 engines, not sure about Phase 2...).
This is perhaps a more reliable measurement given that you are directly measuring a value rather than making assumptions about the A/F ratio required to maintain safe EGTs...
Obviously the Lambdalink is more useful for tuning (doubly so with EGT), but this isn't a factor if you're using a stock ECU with a boost controller...
Cheers,
Alex
For safety, our US collegues favour an exhaust gas temperature sensor placed in the header from no.3 cylinder (hottest on Phase 1 engines, not sure about Phase 2...).
This is perhaps a more reliable measurement given that you are directly measuring a value rather than making assumptions about the A/F ratio required to maintain safe EGTs...
Obviously the Lambdalink is more useful for tuning (doubly so with EGT), but this isn't a factor if you're using a stock ECU with a boost controller...
Cheers,
Alex
10 July 2001, 05:09 PM
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<B>Hail</B>
Mark is correct about the Lambda probe reading lean when getting hot.
Is there anyone besides Danny running a VF hybrid on a UK engine?
/J
P.S.
How's the underpowered uglified Impreza Adam?
Mark is correct about the Lambda probe reading lean when getting hot.
Is there anyone besides Danny running a VF hybrid on a UK engine?
/J
P.S.
How's the underpowered uglified Impreza Adam?
10 July 2001, 06:36 PM
#58
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Adam you brown noser..... 
wish I knew half as much as you think I do......
The Lambda Link is more than adequate for tuning, as well as giving indicating if there is a problem.
I'd advise anyone who's planning on doing any mod's, that are likely to have an impact on the fueling, to fit one prior to the mod's, and get used to how to read it.
Lambda sensors read LEANER as they get hot (commonly) this is one of the reasons why ECU's go open loop when on boost. Or, the ECU would just keep adding fuel.
What you're looking for, is a change from the "norm".
EGT sensors are great, but again, unless you have something to compare it with, or cross reference to, the temp may not help.
Mark.
wish I knew half as much as you think I do......The Lambda Link is more than adequate for tuning, as well as giving indicating if there is a problem.
I'd advise anyone who's planning on doing any mod's, that are likely to have an impact on the fueling, to fit one prior to the mod's, and get used to how to read it.
Lambda sensors read LEANER as they get hot (commonly) this is one of the reasons why ECU's go open loop when on boost. Or, the ECU would just keep adding fuel.
What you're looking for, is a change from the "norm".
EGT sensors are great, but again, unless you have something to compare it with, or cross reference to, the temp may not help.
Mark.
11 July 2001, 06:12 AM
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Thanks All
Good stuff. Next question though, has anyone actually managed to fit the knock and lamdalink led's somewhere a bit more aesthetic than the black-box link solution?!
I'm hoping to be able to fit them into the my00 cup holder tray somehow - any advice?
Cheers
Richard
PS: Andy - £56?!
Good stuff. Next question though, has anyone actually managed to fit the knock and lamdalink led's somewhere a bit more aesthetic than the black-box link solution?!
I'm hoping to be able to fit them into the my00 cup holder tray somehow - any advice?
Cheers
Richard
PS: Andy - £56?!
11 July 2001, 08:04 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by dowser:
<B>Next question though, has anyone actually managed to fit the knock and lamdalink led's somewhere a bit more aesthetic than the black-box link solution?![/quote]
Funny you should say that....
<B>Next question though, has anyone actually managed to fit the knock and lamdalink led's somewhere a bit more aesthetic than the black-box link solution?![/quote]
Funny you should say that....