R19KET

Jack,

Interesting comments. The Unichip is certainly very popular in Aus', but mainly because of the marketing presence of APS, and also because "relativly" speaking, it's much easier to map than a full replacement ecu.

Now, as for the number of mappable zones, you also have to take into account the interpolation software, and the fact that whilst the Link may currently only have 6 rows ('99> has 10 rows) it's also been specifically designed for the Subaru.

That's not taking into account solving the Unichip boost control problems.

I'm not knocking the Unichip, I just don't think you've had the oppertunity to drive a well mapped Link'd car. I know a few Unichip owners who were more than just a little surprised....

I'm curious to know this, if you had the choice between the unichip, or a Motec, mapped with only 11 rows, what would you take ?

Mark.

jack

RobJenks,

Yeah, I was given it, but it's unreadable unless you have the proper software. It's more for backup than anything else. Honestly speaking, being the inquisitive b*stard that I am, I'd proper destroy the engine or shorten its lifespan considerably if I had the chance to screw around with 'em maps. :P It's a cool idea to be able to advance that ignition timing all by yourself, but there's a mighty good reason why good tuning houses (like BRD and PS in UK, I suppose) have such wonderful reputations.

----

Mark,

I concede the argument that Link as a full replacement ECU makes the installation so much easier (Unichip can create a rather ugly mess at the harness), but look at it from another angle, if I change my car in future, I can bring my Unichip along with me because it's generic. Or almost generic. Boost control wise, I have always been a firm believer of good EBCs. I had the good fortune to play around with several types (HKS EVC, Trust Profec, Apexi AVC-R which I'm currently using), and every single one of them is superior to anything that tries to control boost via the factory solenoid. Whether it's Unichip or Link or even Motec, I strongly advise against using the factory solenoid, if you can help it.

Nothing beats having a higher map resolution. Unless the interpolation has some marvellous logic attached to it that considers *ALL* factors, its accuracy would never be there. If it has, people would be tuning two points and interpolating everything in between! That's also part of the reason why Motec and Autronic have such awesome reputations, because they offer 200 tuning points at least for each map, and can go up to 500 or some crazy number.

If we were to assume this Motec of yours can only go 11 rows, and doesn't have all its other advantages, i.e. its microprocessor superiority, high sampling rate, calibration accuracy, data logging capabilities, acceleration enrichment, auxiliary output support etc, and it's still being sold for drug money, I'd take the Unichip any time.

That said, I just want to say I have driven Link enabled cars and at best they were very good but not fantastic, taking the usual factors like idling, throttle response, acceleration response etc into consideration, and at worst they were exhibiting all the problems people are always complaining about. I know it's unfair to compare between different cars, but having played around with numerous WRXs in a variety of ECU mods has given me some form of tuning expectation, albeit a personal one. On the other hand, I've never driven a Unichip enabled car that's feels fantastic either, but inferior to Link, never. It's somehow not as "good" as WRXs with Autronic or Power FC, but at that sort of price, I still say it's the best out there.

[This message has been edited by jack (edited 26 July 2001).]

R19KET

Jack,

You're right about the Link installation, but I was referring to why some tuner prefer the Unichip, because it's much easier to map, than a full replacement ecu, so the tuner doesn't have to be as competent as a tuner mapping a Motec, Link, etc'.

So you'd take a Unichip, over a Motec with an 11 row map.....oh well

You also keep talking about the cost, just how do these compare, when you take the cost of the EVC into account.

Mark.

EvilBevel

Hmmm, Mark , I hear what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree fully.

I tried to stay out of this thread because nothing is as sad as "defending" your own choices.

To answer your question first: I would *love* to have the Motec. Seems to be the first choice, no doubt about it. Powerstation (a Unichip fitter IIRC) absolutely *rave* about the Motec. You have to put a sock into Dirk to stop him

In fact... I will probably install a Motec once my car is no longer my daily workhorse. One of the fun things about my car is that I use it every day, and that's one of the reasons I ended up with the Unichip.

Mark V. - who took care of the tuning side of my car - opted for the Unichip just because he didn't want to play around with idling, airco, security, etc... Call him lazy.

But he wanted to concentrate on a) fuelling, b) ignition, and c) boost control. Not because the ECU in itself was a "means", but to be able to efficiently use the VF23 turbo on a UK car. Easier ? Maybe, but we spent 50 hours plus mapping it (on the road) nonetheless. Without the engine detting once.

I concede the point about being able to "twiddle around" with the maps yourself. I think Dastek should rethink their policy about that. I have asked for a cable (I have the program, maps, laptop) so that I can at least load another map when I go to Italy and be confronted with glorious 95 RON fuel I will get the cable in the end (don't want the pots with it, but there seems to be no choice). A few changes in the boost control are enough to adapt the car for this. I see no reason why an end user would not be allowed to change that without needing to go to a tuner.

Oh, and boost control... bit of a sad story, that. APS have a boost control unit to go with the Unichip (since over a year now) but there have been problems with it (only solved recently). Therefor most tuners probably used an EVC or similar to control the boost. I use the APS unit, and after a few problems, it works pretty well now.

Mind you, only RPM related duty cycles for now, but with the next version (I know about vapourware) you have a lot more control even.
It will be "3D" with RPM x TPS x duty cycle x road speed (so you can tune it for different gears).

Incidently, we were able to exactly map the boost (with the old version) where we wanted it to be BTW, but we also played with the restrictor to make the map as smooth as possible. (I think it's 1 mm now, not sure about what we ended up with)

And because no one seems to want to play in my other thread: the results of what a Unichip can or can not do (on my car) are now up on

Sam Elassar

[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 27 July 2001).]

EvilBevel

Err.. Sam ?

>>thoe
if you have never reached knock ( to a certain degree ) how do you know you where are the limits of your car ?

Simple & plain answer: we were not searching for the limit of my car. We may not have liked what we found...

>>i have driven a unichip equipped car few months back, and the boost kept haunting like around the target. the tuner blamed the solenoid. typical

Mhhhmm... you know, this is a small world, and I may end up in your neck of the woods one day... if the car is still the same ( ) you can have a drive. Be prepared to eat at least some of your words.

>>please guys don't just post things you really don't understand otherwise you endup looking really silly.

I'm not sure my post deserved this ???

Theo

Sam Elassar

.

[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 27 July 2001).]

EvilBevel

Sam,

Serious question ...

Did you consider, even just for one second, that the guy that worked on my car may actually know what he is doing ? That he may even be very good actually ? Like in ... *really good* ?

You have seen the RR map, and if you know a thing or two about RR outcome, you may even conclude that my car is probably (give or take 10 bhp) just as powerful as your car (if not more powerful in winter).

Track is down to the driver, nothing to do with tuning I'm afraid. Invitation to drive it is still open BTW.

I think you are dismissing a thing or two based on your view of the Unichip.

I admit being a bit cross with your previous post: I probably know as much - if not more - about tuning as you do. Don't kid yourself.

Oh, and your statement in the other thread about the temps is dead wrong, so nah.

Theo [no smilies]

R19KET

Theo,

It's not about defending ones choice. It's should be about giving a fair, informed answer to someones question.

Too many people comment on products they know little, or nothing about. As a product, the Unichip is fine, but, people often neglect to include the cost of a boost controller into the equation.

There have also been issues with the Link, but these have been pretty much rectified.

Even the Motec has idling issues, but all of these things can be rectified, IF the tuner is given the time he needs to sort them out. Most people turn up in the morning, and expect to get the perfect map in a few hours, even the cold start.

Now, you've just told us that your tuner has spent in excess of 50 hours mapping your car !!!!! In most circumstances, a tuner would charge circa £50 ph for mapping. Assuming you didn't pay anywhere near that, how many people would think circa £2500 was reasonable for mapping ????? By the way, what the heck were you guys doing for 50 hours

I'm not saying the Unichip is any worse, or the Link any better, But, I'd put any well mapped Link car up against any well mapped Unichip car, and I bet you there'd be little or no difference. Apart from the Link mappers are better than the Unichip mappers

Then of course you have the added flexability of the Link, but this in itself has caused a lot of bad press. Because the Link is so accessable, people want to have a go themselves, and that's a good thing, but it also means that there are a lot of cars out there with some pretty iffy maps.

"Relatively speaking", it's easy to map the fuel, and igntion. Cold start, idle, and the other pareameters take far more experience.

Mark.

Sam Elassar

hi theo
i obviously don't know anything, and that is why a 200bhp@PaW is obviously better than 220PaW. OR maybe 20bhp@PaW is something you can easily achieved

i am sorry that i offended you. i will take all the remarks i have posted.

one last thing obviously reducing charge temps below 40 is a very bad thing, so i will throw my FMIC and will definitely not consider WI.


sam
last post on this thread from me.


mark

unichip + a rpm controlled boost controller is around £1000 i think if not more. so that throws the cost theory out of the window.

EvilBevel

Hey Mark,

I agree with the "too many people comment on" ... bit wholehartedly. No, serious.

That goes for me as well. I'm guilty. I admit to actually knowing F.A. about cars. But ... I also see a lot of misinformation that even at my level I know is wrong.

Now about my car... I paid for the hardware only, the mapping was free. I was a "test case", so all the work that was put into it was not paid. Before you laugh on the "50 hours +" ... this was his first map with the Unichip, we wanted to start off really conservative, and we had a few issues (like the failing boost control hardware and a failing "Group A" (LOL) dumpvalve).

He also wanted to keep my car in one piece.

The Unichip software is less than straightforward... the manuals & the user interface of the program - in search of a better word - sucks *big time* (from a tuner's POV). I'm into 'puters, Mark is into cars, so together we were on a "fact finding mission".

Nobody really seems to want to comment on the RR graph - OK with me - but let me add that PS admitted that they would not be able to create a map that would be better... not bad for a first timer eh ?

Look, apart from yourself, Bob, Pat, JohnF, and Firefox, I haven't exactly seen too many people a) being "in the know" and b) prepared to talk about it all freely. You guys deserve a medal for that alone. That said ... there are a lot of "wannabe" followers on this BBS that just spout an opinion based on whatever happened that they can't figure out. Adam is not an expert, but he sees through the BS (just like I do) in about 3 secs.

The Link isn't about idle control, and the Unichip isn't about "piggy bag".

Would be fun if we could move on to a next level.

This sometimes reminds me of my work... it's not about MS, or Linux, or whatever... it's about doing the best possible job with the hard & software at hand.

Theo

EvilBevel

edited because this seems to be one more lost thread. Shame really.

Theo

[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 26 July 2001).]

Sam Elassar

Theo

all i have mentioned is my OWN experineces. what i have done and what i have gained, not pretending to be anything?


sam

EvilBevel

(trying to calm down things)

Sam, this isn't about you and me. Believe me. We both picked the same ideal turbo - whatever the experts say - for our cars

The more I learn about this car/mapping thing, the more I learn how "biased" most opinions are.

Let's cool off, and still keep the promise of riding each other motor, OK ? Like..., peace ?

Theo

IWatkins

I had a Unichip fitted to my car and I'm happy

Cheers

Ian

Jacko

EvilBevel, good figures, you must be proud to acheive that with all that effort. Well done.
However, I have been following this thread with some interest and it has made me chuckle
Lets just have a sanity check…..

LINK - Race proven.
UNICHIP – Dyno proven?

I have heard many owners who have gone from UNICHIP onto LINK, based on bad experience or the requirement for Tune-ability.
To be honest, I have never heard of anyone who has gone from LINK onto UNICHIP.
The argument whether the UNICHIP is better than the LINK is not really valid. They both are a means to achieve the inevitable same result. The Mapper also has a major role to play in this and if only every mapper had 50hrs tinkering with every customers car
It is just that one of these box of tricks was purposely developed for the Scoob and to do its job robustly without failure but with inherent consistency. The other does not (read the facts) !
You can keep your UNICHIP as I know at some time or another you'll be posting the question on where to get either Motec or Link, just like the others did.
If you want proof, waste some valuable flaming time on searching for UNICHIP issues, although I think this BBS has restricted the archive dates, so only a limited amount of issues would be found

Sam, I am interested in what you have done to your car. I am impressed with the figures that she is putting out. Please e-mail me offline and I’ll fill you in on my UK-Possum’d.

Cheers Jacko. (feel free to flame me, after all it’s only my own OPINION with a bit of FACT added in for flavour)




[This message has been edited by Jacko (edited 26 July 2001).]

mikeesingh

iTrader: (3)

trout,

You misunderstood me about security......it was the key-imobilised security which works with the standard ecu (on uk cars)I was talking about. By replacing the standard ecu with another ecu, this feature is lost. I have heard that thieves find it impossible to drive a car with this feature (unless of course they are carrying a spare ecu!)

Thats one of the reasons why I picked Unichip because it works with a standard ecu.

mikee


[This message has been edited by mikeesingh (edited 26 July 2001).]

EvilBevel

Jacko, do you ever read scoobynet ?

I think people are sick hearing me say it's all down to the tuners and not the hardware.

Maybe you need to catch up ?

Oh, and I already know where & when I will pick up the Motec.

Ta,

Theo

Edited to say I don't like your tone at all BTW.

[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 26 July 2001).]

Trout...

Mikee,

must be a different set up - my immobiliser continued to work after, with the Link installed. There are a set of toggles on the board to set it up.

No offence intended - to much heat in this thread and not enough light.

Trout

Tony Quinn

For the record I have a Link system, I am happy with it. I recognise some of the problems discussed about the idle, I had them myself. However spending a little time working on the map allows these problems to be ironed out. No-one's car should rev at 2,000 rpm at any point during idle. Mine did this but this problem was easily removed, just waiting to find out whether it will start in arctic conditions. Otherwise I am happy that I now have a powerful and safe map with a solid idle.

In support of the Unichip, I have ridden in EvilBevel's car and it is QUICK. No doubt at all. Unichip will give as much performance as the Link, you'll probably only be able to separate them on a dyno, you won't notice the difference on the road regardless of how many zones each system has. I have been on track at the same time as a well-driven Unichip car that was otherwise very similar in spec to my car. My car had nothing on this car, if anything the Unichip car had a little more top end than mine, may have been running more boost at high revs? I don't know for sure. Personally I had made a deliberate decision to have a conservative top-end but I think that this showed me that there is more potential.

To put these cars' performance into perspective within the Subaru range, I had a short drag race against a P1 owner. The P1 was outpaced, owner was very surprised, could only comment that I had "....a fast car. Definitely quicker than my P1".

Conclusion: the Europeans definitely know how to make the Unichip work. They have achieved P1 levels of performance from "UK" engines and I don't believe that they have lost any yet and there really is no reason why they should.

Congratulations to EvilBevil and Mark for taking the time and trouble to do the job properly. Forget Link v Unichip, as Evil said it's the wrong question. The question that you should be asking is what do I want the car to do, which tuners can do this and which of those do I trust to do it properly? Link and Unichip can both achieve excellent results.

jack

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by R19KET:
<B>So you'd take a Unichip, over a Motec with an 11 row map.....oh well

You also keep talking about the cost, just how do these compare, when you take the cost of the EVC into account.
[/quote]

Mark,

I think it isn't fair to read into only half my assumptions and ignore the other bits about Motec's other qualities? The bottom line I was on is that Motec is what it is for *EVERYTHING* it has to offer, which is why I listed down the other conditions. Otherwise, it's pretty much a no-brainer kind of thing don't you think?

I am of the opinion that EBCs work better than any factory solenoid. So if I invest in one, I'll have a superior boost control system. That IMHO, is enough justification for the extra cost. It's value-for-money I keep talking about, not just money alone.

Maybe it's the wrong choice of words, but I never meant for it to sound like the Unichip is in the premier league or the Link is bottom of the Division 3 table. For every product, there are always customers who are happy and customers who aren't. I happen to be one who had good experience with the Unichip and bad experience with Link. For you it's the other way round. Each to his own I guess.

mikeesingh

iTrader: (3)

&gt;Originally posted by R19KET:
&gt;You also keep talking about the cost, just how do these compare, when you take the cost of the EVC into account.

i forgot to mention i brought my Unichip & HKS EVC pro second hand from the scoobynet for 1/2 price, i dont think i could justify buying EVC new almost £500

mikee

R19KET

Jack,

I think it was the K-Mart comment

Just so you know, I used to run Link, and now I run Motec. I only changed for one reason, and that's because whilst the Link is excellent at running up to 1.45bar, the OLD software setting for running 1.5bar + was rubbish. This has now been changed, and I'm sure it will work very well, but I've yet to map it. This may change very soon

Mark.

SecretAgentMan

Yeah Mark go for it...the new software has the nice feat of up/downloading the map from the laptop as well, the software has a few more gimmicks as well...some gauges..datalogging...playback.

I'm getting that chip any day/week/year now.

/J

R19KET

It's ashame that these threads always seem to turn into a slanging match. We can all learn so much from these treads.

People need to know the pro's, and con's of each product, but Like Theo said, I'd be choosing the "mapper" first, and base the hardware on his experience.

You also need to take into account what mods you may want to do in the future, and make sure the hardware has the features you may require.

Mark.

Sam Elassar

j

is the new chip you are talking about the link plus ? is not that a non car specific ecu like a motec ? so you would need a wiring loom and so it to get it fitted.


sam

SecretAgentMan

It's a new chip/software for the Link ECU (the new Link is called "PCLink" btw)...and can be bought from most Link retailers (I think).
It's easy to change the chip in the ECU, you'll need a special tool to do it easily though (which can be found in most PC hardware stores).

I had to manage with 2 bent needles down in 7oaks when I was changing chip in mine...

The only problem with the PCLink software is that there's more preassure "rows"..higher resolution. Which means a bit of interpolation, and common sense.

The upside is the ability to up/download the map from a PC.



/Jerry

Sam Elassar

interesting

what cost are we talking about here ?

jack

Mark,

Everything's cool, I should have watched my mouth. Which Motec product are you using? I heard they've got a new model out - M800. Any information on that?

Adam M

Jack,

the new model you refer to is as you say the M800. This maybe officially out, but trying to get hold of one is a diffrent story. It has exactly the same map resolution, but a faster processor speed and more memory for data logging. It also has more inputs and outputs for greater connectivity and integral idle speed control which I still do not fully understand. I was going to go for one, but have now decided against it, as I dont believe I will be able to exatract the benefit of the extra features and so cannot justify the cost.

Most motec users on this board will be running M48pro. It is my intention to get one of these too.

Jerry, am I right in thinking the nwe link chip plugs into the old link boards, like mine, and now has ten rows instead of 6?

I am due for a new style chip ve soon, so would be pleased if this is the case!