SecretAgentMan

What kinda moolah are we talking about here Adam?



/J

Adam M

sorry jery, I am not selling teh kit so I dont know.

I cant imagine they would price themselves out of the market, and given shipping from australia and import duties etc etc arent a factor, I should imagine it will compete with the others but provide a much improved radiator than the standard item at teh same time.

Dont see how this can be a bad thing.

On top of this, tere looks like being a perfect amount of room for an oil and power steering cooler above the rad but behind the intercooler. may have to take advantage of that part.

Sam Elassar

new pics








[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 30 July 2001).]

Adam M

Sam,

thanks for posting the pics for me.

Do you have a pic of your car which shows the intercooler from the front with the pipework coming out of it?

I am insterested to know exactly where the pipes run when they come out of the core.

Stef

Adam.
Nice bit of kit, but one question.
I notice the inlets to the core are at the top, rather than near the bottm like other kits. Surely this means that oil will be able to get into the core more easily? I notice oil quite a bit in my pipes but as the inlets are below the core there is no risk of it going into the core.
I don't even know what affect it would have, but it was one of the benefits of the Hyperflow kit.

Stef.

Adam M

good of you to notice that stef.

It migth well be a problem in that oil vapour could cause a build up. the resut being taht part of the intercooler could become blocked. I am not sur hopw much of this would be a problem given the amount of air blown through the cooler and the pressure it is at.

It wont affect me for long anyway and I am waiting to fit an oil catch tank, so there isnt going to be any vapour flying around in the intercooler system at all.

Stef, is there any chance you will be at teh london end of the m1 in the near future? I was hoping to get a look at your front mount set up for comaprison purposes.

Sam Elassar

here is some of my intercooler pics, they are not very clear but i hope they help.








and this one is just for extra meassures


sam



[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 31 July 2001).]

Adam M

Sam,

was wondering about doing things to improve situation in mine, but after a sorting some stuff out, there is no need whatsoever.

The car with other mods is running beautifully.

The standard actuator was allowing the wastegate to be blown open, so the car was only peaking and holding 0.8 bar. A stronger actuator went on, so I went for a spirited drive to see what how things were afterwards.

The car now peaks to 1.2 then immediately settles on 1.0 bar as it did prior to the intercooler change, meaning it isnt noticably more restrictive.

More importantly I rushed to open the bonnet after the drive to check the temperature of the intake pipework before heat soak could set in.

All I can say is wow, the pipe was very very cool to the touch, I cannot believe this pipe had been under the bonnet all the time during that drive with oil temps hitting 100 to 105 with te air con on too .

Needless to say I am very very happy now.

SPA gauges arrived today so I will be properly montioring temps from now on rather than using my fingers on the pipework when the car is stopped.

Once the maf is removed by refitting the link or motec, I will be modifying my own pipework so that it need not deviate around the filter.

Sam Elassar

hi adam.
glad you like your set up so far, see how the temps hold up when the gauges are fitted. you are running relatively low boost now . once i get my probe back, early next week i will turn boost down and see what temps i get to make a better comparison.

what will also be very useful, is to do a dyno with the temp probe in place to see the before and after result.

sam

MorayMackenzie

Adam,

Thanks for the spelling advice.

Just to illustrate my previous comment about a certain someone's tendency to suffer from "typographical transposition issues" when his train of thought overtakes his racing bicycle of typing ability:

"It migth well be a problem in that oil vapour could cause a build up. the resut being taht part of the intercooler could become blocked. I am not sur hopw much of this would be a problem given the amount of air blown through the cooler and the pressure it is at."


Anyway...

On a more serious note... maybe you could contact Pace and ask them if they have considered the vapour issue... I suspect they would suggest a (pace?) breather catch tank system... but they could fit a drainage plug into the core base. I suspect they have considered this issue already, as they have been known to produce such kits for other makes of car in the past. An oil catch tank would be the "purest" solution.

Of course, Stef's I/C is better anyway because the pipework is setup to take advantage of colder, lower lying air and puddle water to further improve system efficiency ( <-- notice the "C" then "I" then "E"? The English language, init marvelous. ). I suspect Stef's I/C is less rigid than Adam's too, thus allowing a slight banana factor in case of frontal impact.

Moray

Sam Elassar

hi moray
i like the fact you keep commenting about stef's intercooler when mine is obviously similar and is what the pics above are showing

sam

Adam M

Lets not be pedantic about english moray. You will lose. Typing yes, by all means.

efficiency does not come under the i before e rule as the word is not pronounced in the same way as words following the rule, such as ceiling and conceive. Notice how these sound different from such words as efficiency and sufficiency.

Sam,

i dont think moray was intentionally referring to stefs intercooler out of spite, it was merely worth introducing as a precursor to a joke regarding structural rigidity, his being now banana shaped in section .

oil catch tank will solve my problems, but I dont know if pace would have considered the points that Stef originally raised. They are more than capable of supplying such items, but even left untackled, from my experience, the pipe work is so much shorter that its advantage regarding lag far outweighs oil vapour problems.

MorayMackenzie

Adam,

You wrote down a "rule" whilst correcting my spelling, which is where the pedancy began. I pointed out an obvious exception to the said "rule", proving it doesn't work in all cases. You then became more pedantic and add previously undisclosed (in your argument) conditions to the rule which reduce it's previously all-encompassing scope considerably. The bit I like is where your implied accusation of me starting the pedantic bits. Ho hum.


Sam,

I'm sorry, did I forget to mention your intercooler?

Oh well, let's all talk about Sam's intercooler for a bit...

Hey everybody, doesn't Sam's intercooler look a lot like the one that Stef had fitted to his car (did) a while ago?

Moray

Adam M

Moray.

As a lawyer it is my job to ome with convincing arguments to make people doubt their own points of view.

In this case my final word on this subject is.


SHUT UP YOU TART!

always goes down well with judges.

I think you will find that Stefs and Sams intercoolers were fitted at around the same time. But personally so far I am more convinced by the APS than the hyperflow.

Initial impressions suggest I should be even more convinced by the pace arrangement as it looks like it will be competitively priced, has a 25% larger core area, seems to perform as well (yet to be confirmed), with less lag, and comprises a better spec rad!

I have had it confirmed that the thermometers used by pace are certified to be accurate.

Alarmingly they are dubious as to the accuracy of some of the claims made on this thread. especially regarding claims of 4 degrees above ambient at well over 1.2bar!

I dont have much experience of these things and certainly dont build interccolers for a living, but they are sceptical having never seen figures like this achieved before!

MorayMackenzie

Adam,

Please explain what "ome"ing is and how you "ome" with a convincing argument?

A swift reply would be appreciated as I would hate to miss out on that gem just because your account is frozen before the reply...

Moray

Sam Elassar

now now moray, you know what i meant ( i hope ) both intercoolers mine and stef's are slightly different, but should be probably get similar results.

adam
i don't remember claiming 4 degrees above ambient at 1.2 bar any where at criuse i get high twenties and at 1.2 bar i get mid 30s and on the rolling road at 1.25 bar actually i got 39 degrees. when the temps in the garage were around 25 degrees.
the set up you have looks very good, and i don't think you needed any bumper modifications to be made which is great considering that your car is a 22B which is a bit special really. i can get another bumper a lot easier than you, if you know what i mean.

you are more than welcome to phone Jim at starperformance and ask him your self , he was very impressed . they had a skyline the week before with and huge uprated intercooler (according to Jim ) and it was hitting 50 degrees by the end of the run.

Adam M

ome is a mistake in that I left out the letter "c" from the beginning of the word.
the word come is probably something you dont appreciate, so I wont bore you with an explanation.

Since you are perfect, I forgot that you never make mistakes, please forgive me.

if you are going to continue on this lame course of intricate post reading and editing, can you do it on another thread. The content of this one is more important than your sad corrections!

GavinP

Adam,

I wouldn't be too concerned with temperatures that people quote as they are fairly meaningless without knowing the ambient temperature, turbo outlet temp, probe location and events prior to the "quoted" reading....

My chargecooler is 100% efficient for at least one minute first thing in the morning!

Pace made the radiator for my chargecooler and I was impressed with the quality of it - seems like the intercoolers are just as good by the look of your photos

Incidentally, I thought the 40 degrees C figure was relating to water injection - under 42 degrees C and WI loses power ? -

Bob Rawle

Read this thro this evening, just got the pc booted up again after house move.

"at ambient of 24.9 temp was 59 degrees at 1 bar boost with top mount. at 26.4 degrees ambient, front mount yielded 40 degrees"

Hopefully Adam and Moray will get the diction issues sorted soon but in the mean time ...

I have monitored charge temps at the inlet of the throttle body on every turbo car I have owned, I use a very accurate meter that monitors temperature 2000 (yes thats right) times per second, that means its always "up to date".

Current car figures.

At 1 bar held boost in ambients of 26 degrees I would not see over 32 degrees, at a held 1.5 bar boost I would typically see 45/48 degrees from the same ambient. this using the oe MY99 intercooler.

I can quite see how Adam would get an improvement over his stock cooler as the Pre '99 design is vastly inferior. Close examination will reveal almost twice the finning in the later cooler both internal and external. This means, of course, that it is far more effective.

I know of at least one aftermarket replacement that actually produced hotter charge temps (it was a top mount).

Not knocking the FMIC at all, I think its a better way of controling charge temp in a modified engine. Sam's results are the more impressive because he is comparing his improvement to the performance of the later (better) intercooler.

If you could take the later top mount, re-position and enlarge it as a FMIC then that would be almost be the best result. Most aftermarket cores are definately not as good as this, cost alone I guess as there is no good technical reason. Yes I have heard all the "they use them in this or that" but ..... at the end of the day the later top mount is a pretty effective design, a FMIC will have to go some to beat it, Sam's seems to do that.

At some point I will probably change over but mainly to avoid the heat soak issues of the top mount (50-60 deg today in town driving).

carlos_hiraoka

Bob, r u saying that the stock 99 top mounted intercooler is "way better" than the 97 - 98 stock top mounted intercooler ..... ?????.
If it is like that ..... is there anyway to adapt the MY99 Intercooler to a MY98 engine ?????

Thanx,

Carlos H.

Bob Rawle

Carlos that is exactly what I am saying. Any MY99/00 will run more timing when linked than its equivelant MY97/98 car and this is most (but not all) of the reason. Yes I can se a way of fitting the later intercooler to the MY97/98 cars, it would entail the manufacture of an adaptor to fit on the dump valve position of the later item but that should be easily done to allow mating with the earlier cooler. A good machine shop could do it. Imagine the body of the MY99 dump valve but with a side exit pipe mounted to it to interface with the standard factory pipework of the MY97/98

Sam Elassar

hi bob
i have been told by couple of companies in australia ( APS actually ) and another company when i was in NZ (can't remember the name ) that the top mount for the MY99 still has got a big pressure drop at the top end, i thought that is why my car feels so much stronger at the top end. . has this been measured by any one ?

or do you think that was thier sales pitch kicking in

sam

Bob Rawle

Can't say that I've noticed that, my max power is at 7000 rpm so doesn't seem to be an issue, an extra boost gauge before the intercooler will tell the tale though, on the Wagon (MY96) there was no more than 0.2 bar pressure drop.

Adam M

Bob,
surely if the wagon was dropping 0.2 bar then wouldnt the version 5 intercooler cause at least this amount but probably a significant amount more?

Dont see how you cant increase internal and external finning thereby improving cooling without increasing resistance.

Over the same distance if made from the same material by the same methods (which it does appear to be) for the air to be giving up as much heat, it must be more restrictive.

Sam Elassar

hi bob

that is around 3 psi which is not far off the figures i was quoted intially by APS. they said that my currant MY99 intercooler will be loosing around 3-4psi at 1.3 bar of boost.

another thing, should my water temps on the tunning module go up ? is the tunning module senstive enough ? i see 86-88on full chat and 82 on cruise. i can't remember exactly what it used to be before, but i don't remember it being very different

i remember john F mentioning some where that the area betweent the intercooler and the rad should be blocked. is that neccessary with these readings ?

Bob Rawle

Adam, the very early intercoolers were much much smaller than the later version. As such they will generate a larger pressure drop, having more finning is not a pre-requisite for a larger pressure drop, earlier finning is much thicker in section also the angled intercoolers only had one inlet point. As I said, simlpy fitting an extra bost guage will prove the point ...

BTW what has external finning got to do with pressure drop through the cooler ?

Sam, since you have restricted air flow through the front of the car then of course your water temps will rise, so will your oil temps ... pays your money as they say.

Currently my cruise water is 78-80, on prolonged boost then its 82-84 but only for very brief peaks due to soak.
The tuning module is acting as a meter only, what you see is what you got. The fact that I use a fast meter for charge temps is so I can see the minutest difference, its not normally needed for the average use even on track.

Adam M

Bob,

you mntioned the sti 5 intercooler has more internal and external finning, I repeated this in my post.

Increased internal finning will cause more resistance and hence a greater pressure drop.

How much bigger is the sti 5 intercooler than the sti 4? I can accept it is that much better than the angled earlier one due to size etc. but the version 3 and 4 isnt that much smaller, so for the 5 to be finned more internally, it must be more restrictive as I said originally.

External finning must also be taken into account as it affects the coolind efficiency of the lower levels of the core. A less dense core guarantees consistent cool airflow to a greater thickness of intercooler. Increased density is fine if it is a shallow core but the standard intercooler is two tubes thick, so this choice must have been a compromise.

Bob Rawle

Adam bring your top mount with you tomorrow and a tape measure , you can check the differences, as I said what has external finning got to do with pressure drop, that was the question, internal finning shape size and configuration is just as important as quantity ... I am not interested in debating the point, I raised this because its important for the different base lines to be appreciated when comparisons are made.

Rate of air flow thro' a matrix is not the only factor in determining effectiveness, too much flow can lead to a less effective cooler.

Adam M

I am not sure I understand why it is important to know the different baselines.


I dont see why it is relevant how much of an improvement is made over standard.

surely it is the absolute final result that is important?

Unless one is trying to spend moeny the most efficiently, in that case I suppose it helps it form a bang per buck ratio.

Bob Rawle

So lets ignore the base lines Adam but if it is not important why did you quote your base line ?

Anyway its a spurious debate, the main point of interest should be that the FMIC IS a benefit as long as the design is right for the car.