Silverback

General driving was good, except when having to stop.

Anywhere

At all.

I consider it a major achievement that I managed not to prang my pride and joy on my 5 hr trip back tonight - at least I beat my record from last year - 7.5hrs! (mind you, I was in an MR2 then!)

BMWhere?

ABS works fine in the snow and saved my bacon yesterday... see my post HERE! The problems you all have are not with the ABS, thats just how the problem is exposed, the problem is really with the tyres. 215-225 wide Pirelli PZeros/Bridgestone S03/Toyo Proxes/Goodyear Eagle F1 etc. are performance tyres designed for optimum performace >15-20 deg. C on dry tarmac! On snow, the rubber just freezes and the tread (very small on performance tyres) is no longer able to move the snow out, they become clogged and are effectively a very hard compound slick... then you complain that you slide and the ABS comes on!!!

madmoog

iTrader: (1)

Chupa, I thought that all hills went down towards Barton, unless you were trying to get out of Hexton!!

Hmm ABS.. given wide, low tyres it's does well. Drive with fore thought and hopefully you shouldn't need it. Prefered having it switchable as it was in my old quattro (and a lockable center diff).

For real fear factor, last year in the snow I was in my 205GTi, touch anything and it slid off as it pleased, better on P700Z than on A008 Yoko's in the mid 90's (if anyone remembers them!)though.

TopBanana

The handbrake seemed to be locking the front wheels too

chupa

Yeah East bound from Hexton heading towards Hitchin, on a road that's normally good for 70 today 0.7mph mainly sideways.

greasemonkey

What else were you expecting? The viscous centre diff cars aren't designed to be handbraked, the transmission system simply isn't intended to do this sort of thing. This is why the DCCD cars have an electronic handbrake release, and why the World Rally Cars have a range of fiendishly complex ways of decoupling the front and rear axles when you pull the bar.

The viscous coupling in the standard Impreza centre diff attempts to equalise the rotation speed of the front and rear axles. Thus, if you try and lock the rear axle, the centre diff will transfer this loading through to opposite end. So, on a low grip surface, the tendency will bet to lock the front wheels as well as the rears.

It is possible to handbrake a viscous Impreza if your technique is spot-on and you provoke it a bit, but not only does this put loads on the transmission that it was never intended to take, it is a very risky way to drive when the grip level is unpredictable. Trying to get the car round corners this way would probably just be a ticket to a bigger accident.

Frankly, on snow/possible ice, you'd be better off forgetting the handbrake lever exists and just concentrate on driving the car.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 1/28/2004 11:16:17 PM]

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Last Time I parked on a Icy hill in my UK scoob, It slid down...front wheels rotating, rears locked

I had to run back and shove it into a gear to stop it

Don't ask me why the viscous diff didn't lock up. Must have been too sliding slowly or something

As to AWD in the snow, it just takes a different approach to FWD. Using the throttle to control the rear and bring the front round, but being very precise and not to over do it.

Which is easier to drive fast in the snow? Probably FWD, simply because you can't get the power down and it defaults to understeer and corrects when you back off the throttle/brakes. Drving a scoob fast in the snow takes a bit more skill, in terms of throttle control and steering input.

But you shouldn't be driving on a public road in the snow like that should you? - keep it to the fields and car parks

[Edited by ALi-B - 1/28/2004 11:37:41 PM]

DJB

I've always been a bit diasappointed with this car in the snow. I've found that traction is not usually a problem but braking is horrendous. Clearly AWD has little influence on braking and the tyres are the main factor. I'm running on F1s at the moment and I suspect for snow covered roads these are the worst tread pattern. Winter tyres would be nice but hardly justifiable for the 3 or 4 days a year when you might appreciate them. I suspect any Impreza on the right tyre (ideally high profile, narrow tyre like the WRC cars in Finland) would be invincible.

D.

BMWhere?

They don't lock up, they're viscous! They have a very, for want of a better word, gloopy liquid between two plates. When one drive spins, it causes the liquid to spin, which in turn causes the other drive to spin. If the force stopping a wheel spining is greater than the force required to transfer the drive (i.e. the handbrake on!) then the diff will just slip.

Use engine breaking and AWD makes a huge difference!

Winter tyres are not snow tyres! They're are designed to work best below around 8 degress C (so thats 6 months in the UK) and in heavy rain (so thats 364 days a year in UK ). Certainly, given the normal driving conditions in the UK between mid October and beginning of April sporty Winter tyres would be far more suitable. Your more likely to only have 3 or 4 days when they wouldn't be better! I'm also sure that all the people who crash on the 3 or 4 days of snow would justify them in retrospect. Also don't forget that while you have winter tyres fitted, your not wearing out your normal tyres, so in the long term they don't cost you any more!

[Edited by BMWhere? - 1/29/2004 12:05:44 AM]

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

and thus my comment afterwards



locking up was a figure of speach...from my landy diff lock days

[Edited by ALi-B - 1/28/2004 11:53:01 PM]

Andy S.

Had fun in mine last night and today going over long hill near Buxton, Left work last night at 11.30 and about 4inches of snow, as I was the first car through the snow it was fairly easy going a bit dodgy goning down the steep decents, now I know not to touch the stupid brakes. This morning was a bit dodgy as it had frozen on some of the bends, but plenty of traction. Hopefully more on its way for us!!

greasemonkey

They're the worst tyres in a number of ways. There's too much rubber, the tread pattern's all wrong, they're too wide and the compound just doesn't work properly at temperatures in the single figure range.

Eh? Proper winter road tyres like the Nokian WR are good for a range of conditions, including heavy rain and dry roads when the surface and air temperatures are low. Winter tyres are mandatory in many parts of Europe for three or four months a year, they're far from "snow only"...

Didn't you mean Sweden? Those tyres are designed specifically for deep snow with a layer of hard packed ice underneath, and as such wouldn't be ideal for "British" snow.

"British" snow is, more often than not, a mix of snow, slush and tarmac with occasional patches of ice, which is much more akin to the conditions found on the Monte. Thus, if you were designing a perfect tyre for a typical British snowy day, it'd end up looking much more like a Monte intermediate or even a conventional gravel cover than a Swedish tyre.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 1/29/2004 12:47:10 AM]

Brit_in_Japan

These are the type of tyre you really need, Michelin Drice. Unfortunately for you lot I think they are only availble here in Japan.

Micehlin rate them
5/5 for Ice
5/5 for Snow
5/5 for Dry/Wet roads

And after around 60km on snow/ice last weekend, I can say they are the dogs danglies. Had to try hard on snow to unstick it

BMWhere?

Greasemonkey... thanks for the backup!

Brit_in_Japan, personally I'm using Michelin Pilot Alpin 2, they don perform quite so well on snow/ice/water as your Drice's, but they're more a performance tyre much more suited to the Scooby and for normal British winter driving conditions!

Also have a read of This!


[Edited by BMWhere? - 1/29/2004 7:53:36 AM]

ingveh

greasemonkey, using the handbrake (and clutch) is a very predictable method for hairpins/tight corners and roundabouts in the snow. I have done this for years and the scooby is still in one piece. Flicks or clutch use only, takes a lot more practice and space as it tends to send you off line.

TopBanana

Ooh, get a load of you! I wasn't exactly handbraking on my daily commute, I was just playing around in a carpark. Never had a 4wd car before, so didn't know what to expect.

Jap Imports

Got Type RA, Lock the old Diff up and was Sticking to road just great.

Just braking was , well no braking is the word.

Fatman

I haven't found AWD to be a handicap at all, far from it. In fact from driving last night and this morning I appeared to be having far fewer problems with traction and even lateral grip than most (FWD/RWD) cars. I was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised. (MY00 Turbo, manual (!), Toyo's)

scooby808

Drove like an old man yesterday on the M40 in the scooby, too scared of getting it damaged. In my old Passat 18T felt ok but didnt care to much if it got dented. Now however really jittery in case some tw*t damages the car, would be mortified.

Found the brakes to be little use on snow (ABS is engaged), opening doors as substitute air brakes would do better!

DJB

greasemonkey

Yes, like I said, the F1 is terrible in the snow. I'm sure all wide V tread tyres are as bad. My point about the WRC snow tyres wasn't suggesting that we use identical tyres but that its not the car that is cause of the poor grip but the tyres we mostly use.
To be frank, I don't have the time or the money to change to winter tyres and then back again. Its just not worth the trouble. The F1s are ok for 362 days of the year (arguably the best wet tyre). For the other 3 days, I just drive carefully (now waiting to be quoted and flamed).

D.

SUBTYPER

Well had the Impreza out in the snow and absolutely love it. Loads of grip when the diff is locked. When an empty snow covered carpark is about. You just wind the diff open and practise your figure of 8 power slides. I have two sets of wheels. I got a set of 18" wheels for the summer and the standard 16" wheels for the winter. I am going for some new winter tyres this week so any advice on a good winter tyre.

greasemonkey

Nokian WR's, they're triff. Work great in all "wintery" conditions. I haven't tried them but I've been reliably informed that Pirelli Snowsports aren't bad either.

I can't remember how wide the standard 16" rims are, but if they're 6.5's I'd be tempted to get 195/55 instead of 205/50.

si97

Just found my zz1 are good for one thing at least!!!!

doughnuting in the snow!!!!

Big Flex

You guys need to learn how to drive properly then, cos in the snow, my Scoob drives like a dream. Even on sheet ice, braking is superb, handling is fine and when it does go, it's so easy to get back. It probably helps that I have an advanced driving licence and race licence.

midlander123

Snow !.....what snow ?.......lovely dry, spring day down here in Cornwall.

SUBTYPER

HaHaHa @ Big Flex I didnt know the advanced Driving Licence taught you to drive on Snow and Ice. I certainly know the Race Licence doesn`t teach you to drive on Snow and Ice. Infact most race circuits close in weather conditions like Snow and Ice. I am sure Michael Schumacher is probably alot more qualified in his driving than you are but I bet even he would find the conditions we have had difficult with the wrong tyres for the conditions. Tell me Big Flex you ever owned a BMW

greasemonkey

Lol! In what way do two pieces of paper improve your car control on snow and ice?

BTW, you're far from the only person round here with these, but the rest of us don't think it confers us with some sort of elevated status.

BMWhere?

SUBTYPER: I had Vredstein Wintracks on the RB5 with 16" Steelies and they were fantastic although restricted to 130mph which was a bit cr@p on the Autobahn! Bit stuck with the STi8 as you cant get any smaller wheels over the front brakes, so now have Michelin Pilot Alpin on the original STi wheels, not as good in the snow as the Vredsteins, but that might be due to the width, but on damp roads around 5 degrees, they're even better than the S03's on warm dry stuff! Will probably leave the winters on the original wheels and get some 18" for the summer!

SUBTYPER

Thanks all for the advice for the tyres will try them out. Can you get those tyres in the UK BMWhere

greasemonkey

Should be able to get the Alpins through any Michelin dealer SubTypeR, although I'd imagine most of them would have to order them in.

MyTyres have the Nokians in 205/50x16 for £72 each ATM, and considering how well they work that's a bargain.