OllyK

weapon69

I doubt you are going to convince me to change my views, nor me you. However, I am happy to put my beliefs on the line if you are. It is simple enough.

Let's say your spiritualist makes 100 statements, how many of them need to be correct for you to remain convinced they are genuine? How many would you expect them to get get right? 100%, 90%, 80%?

I am prepared too sit for a reading with any spiritualist you choose and if they can get 60 out of 100 statements correct I will change my views. There are certain caveats:
1) I answer "Yes" or "No" only to all questions they may ask (they shouldn't be asking any questions really, just stating things that are true about me and my life, but I will allow Yes or No questions as a concession to help them)
2) The event is video taped
3) I have full rights to the video tape and may do with it as I choose
4) You and you spiritualist must be prepared to admit on tape that spiritualism is a con if they are unable to provide a 60% hit rate. (I am happy to negotiate on the 60% so that we are both happy with the hit rate assuming it is at a level that is not likely to be possible by pure chance)
5) They may if they wish list the nature of the statements in advance of time so that I can write the answers down to prove I am not lying. For example they may say they will tell me: My mother's maiden name, the name of any dead relatives etc etc - your call on this, if you are happy to trust me then that's fine, I don't belive I will have any need to lie.

Well weapon69 the gauntlet is down, are you prepared to pick it up?
Find your spiritualist that will agree to the terms and we can set the ball rolling, having said that I think you will have a major chanllenge to find one who will agree to be tested. You will get replies like:

1) I have nothing to prove, ask all my satisfied customers
2) He is a skeptic and his negative energy will affect the reading
3) Yes, Ok I'll get back to you on it...sometime...never

Are you prepared to put your beliefs on the line?? As I say I am not scared or close minded, the money I can make if I can find a genuine psychic would be unreal!

AsifScoob

Really interesting thread - if I may join in?

I used to have exactly the same view as Ollyk, unless there was a scientific basis of proof I was not interested.

However, I do not believe that mankind and Human science knows all the answers to everything, look at 'modern medicine', its more about improving effective treatments than actually curing people, ie getting the answers.

Due to a few life changing experiences over the years, I went to see a 'Medium' last year. A lady called Sharon Neil, whom I would highly recommend anyone to go and see.

She is blind and insists that on no account you tell her anything about yourself except your first name.

She was able to tell me who I worked for, what I do, that I was about to be made redundant (which I then was) therefore to leave now, furthermore, she passed messages from my dead Father and was able to tell me, where he died, the EXACT date that he died, exactly how he died, that he had died in the first place, etc etc.

I had it all recorded on tape and played it to my brothers, my eldest of whom is 100% sceptical, even more than Ollyk, and his only response at the end was silence and a grudging admittance that there may be something in it.

Dont get me wrong there were a couple of things that were not quite right, but the major stuff was spot on. You also need to remember that as she is blind, her explanations lacked the same eloquence as a seeing person may be able to give.

She does visit from Ireland quite a lot and I would suggest to any doubters to get a reading from her - you will be surprised.

Asif

OllyK

I absolutely agree, there is very much that we do not understand (yet), but that does not mean that I am prepared to belive the first explanation that I am given.

Knowledge is based on a build up of experience, and my experience with mediums is that they are using cold reading techniques and have no super natural ability, however, I am still prepared to be convinced otherwise.

I take on board what you say Asif and if you gained comfort from her words then I am happy for you. But from what you have said there is absolutely nothing there to convince me that my beliefs are incorrect.

Again an emotional subject was discussed which can affect peoples perception. I would be interested in hearing the tape if you still have it and can convert it to MP3 or similar fomat for easy listening. If you are happy to do so, I would like to analyse it and post back with a transcript of the reading along with my comments. I may also have to ask you some very specific questions to acertain the vaguness of the responses. Again I suspect you were given enough information to draw your own conclusions and the fact that familiy members who are well aware of your history are able to draw the same conclusions provides little weight to the argument IMHO.

Finally, I would like to say I am gald that we have been able to debate this in an open and adult manner without mud slinging and name calling. I appreciate that this is an area that people hold very strong views on, either like myself or like Asif and Weapon69. I don't want to be confrontational, I am just trying to get my point of view across and would like people to seriously think long and hard about the issue. As I have said, I am happy to be proved wrong on this, I just find it highly unlikely in light of previous experience.

Sleep tight!

andrewdelvard

My belief on this? It's all about people who feel out of control of their lives and need something to hook onto, offer direction. Almost like going to church but thats not enough for some people they need direct confrontation, comfort, a 1 to 1.

carl

Google is a wonderful thing

PS: I sense that you have recently been ripped off by a dodgy trader.

[Edited by carl - 1/29/2004 11:32:16 PM]

STi VII

I think people would be surprised by the number of women that visit these spiritualists/psychics. This goes some way to explaining the often out of the blue strange decisions that a lot of women make most of the time.

OllyK

Yet another good example of how these "well intentioned" con merchants can ruin people's lives.

Happened to a mate of mine, his misses was told that she was going to meet her true love soon. So she kicks my mate out, she keeps the house and 3 kids and promptly shacks up with the next guy that asks her out.

Now I admit she was not the most stable person to start with, but being told things like that by somebody who obviously knows FA about her life is not going to have a positive result. I suspect that she may not have been happy with the home situation and this medium just gave her the justification to throw my mate out rather than have to sit down and discuss the problems and work them out.

Oh and she dumped the new guy a few months later and has found another one as she wasn't sure how "soon" was "soon" and thinks this new guy may have been the one the medium was referring to.

OllyK

Just read back though the thread and found the above statement.

Now why on earth would I want to pay a stranger to tell me about what has happened to me? I am me, it is my life, I know exactly what has happened to me over the last 30 years or so.

You were bourn
You are male
You are about 30
You have had some girlfriends
You probably had a pet at some time
You went to school

Yup - I know all that!

weapon69

LMAO I can honestly say i have never taken what a spiritualist tells me as 'instructions for my life'.

I have no need to prove what i say as i know what i have seen/heard/had experience of. End of.

weapon69

OllyK-ROFLMAO!!



Your wasting your time with your comments. Why don't you accept that people don't have your same experiences of these things?

OllyK

weapon69

Classic blind faith, "I don't need any kind of proof".

You accused me of being closed minded and scared and yet I offer you the chance to prove my beliefs wrong and you come back with the classic supernatural belivers cop out - "I don't need to proof it, I just know"

I know I cannot prove that there are no Psychics out there, I would have to test every living person and prove that every single one has no ability. That is not a practical proposition.

All you have to do is prove that 1 single person does have the ability and you have "won", I would be converted.

Why will you not take the challenge? I know why, beacuse deep down when you think about it logically you know what I say is right. You are worried that I can easily destroy your belief system and you are not prepared to risk that and so you wriggle away and refuse to take up the challenge.

As previously stated, even if you were prepared to take up the challenge I know very well you will never agree to get a spiritualist to agree to be tested under scientific conditions. Why? Because they know damn well that they have no psychic ability and are conning people. They know how easy it would be to prove this and they are not prepared to risk their cozy little living.

I am happy to debate this to the end of time, but if you cannot put forward anything more than "it is so beacuse I say so" then this isn't going to go very far. If you can come up with hard evidence that there is something in this and by that I mean a full transcript of what you consider to be an accurate (and again we need to define what we consider to be acceptable as accurate) reading for us to discuss then we are not going to progress. If you want transcripts of shown to be fraudulent mediums then just look at here there are loads of them.

adpd

That is funny

Taxes well spent.

OllyK

Oh I do accept that people have different experiences, if we all belived the same thing and followed like sheep what a boring world this would be.

I have a great belief in the physical laws of the universe that science has defined and refined over time. When somebody provides an explanation for something that is in violation of the laws of physics then I have to stop and think about it and really question if it is possible.

If you watch Paul Daniels or David Blaine and see him push a cigarette through a coin or correcly guess the card that somebody has selected what do you think?

Do you think, "how is that done, I can't understand so it must be real Magic, they have super natural powers and can defy the laws of physics" or do you think "hmmm that can't really be done so there must be some trickery going on with trap doors or marked cards or forcing a card from the desk or something"

It would be somebody very niave that would belive that it was real Magic especially as these people tell you it is a trick and that they are performers.

And yet we have a spiritualist, they use cold reading techniques, mis-direction, assistants who do research and ask questions before the "performance" etc as used by any magician and yet because the spiritualist tells you it is real, you belive it.

There is nothing these spiritualists do that cannot be replicated as well if not better by a good magician. The magician can explain how easily they can replicate the same effects, as I have described. If spiritualists are in contact with the spirit world then they are doing this stuff the hard way!

AsifScoob

This thread is funny.

Ollyk, all I can say is that I had EXACTLY the same view as you, complete doubter - now I am not.

Look up Sharon Neil on the internet and go see her for yourself. If she fails completely then you win mate. It wont cost you much and well worth it.

LOL at Carl. If you are referring to one of my recent threads then you are correct of course. However, if Google can tell the exact date my Father died i'll be very impressed. You know more about me already then she did, do you think you can find out what date my Father died? Or anything else about me at all?

Asif

akshay67

I would ask this Sharon Neil to go for the Millon Dollar Challenge and get her to buy you that P1

AsifScoob

Hello Akshay mate,

I knew you would pop up here again! Hows it going?

I used to love James Randi as he was always uncovering con merchants etc. very funny.

However I do not believe that we 'know everything about everything' and Randi would seem to have the view that there is an answer for everything.

You know me, I am sure I dont come over as a tree hugging type, because im not, however I have to concede that she told me things that only members of my family would know, and some other things that only I would know.

As I said, if Google can tell you all, or any of those things, then fair enough - she is a fraud.

But if Google can tell you any of those things, then I might as well post up my full name and address, car reg number, phone number, and what time of the day i'll be leaving my car keys outside! LOL!

Asif

AsifScoob

B20, you are right mate.

So you and W69 obviously know each other?

I think these things, when explained personally and fully can be appreciated more.

Although I appreciate Ollyk's diligence in explaining hs view, I would have to type a couple of pages to explain why it meant what it meant. And I think I would lose a few readers in that time!

I am prepared to say I may be wrong about this, and then fair enough, Sharon Neil is a very clever and resourceful individual - in an underhand way.

I just dont think so, but am prepared to have my mind changed.

I have to say again, go and see for yourselves, you dont have to do exhaustive research for hours on end, just see if you can learn something.

Asif

Buzzer

W69

I'd be interested in hearing your views and experience with this person. If its not too much trouble, could you post up some specifics and YOUR reasons why you believe (or have no reason to doubt)

AsifScoob

Cool - 10 years? Very nice!

Asif

Buzzer

Cool if B2Z is over 26

Buzzer

B2Z

You have had second hand knowledge of what a Spiritualist has said. Thats the same circumstance i find myself in, so do you believe these people or have you just shrugged it off.................or do you feel you should go yourself?

(sorry bout the above post, couldnt help it)

OllyK

AsifScoob

It is not intended to be funny in any way. I do find it "funny" how easily people can be hoodwinked, maybe it is a "need" to belive, I don't know.

A significant lack of hits on Google - bit like her readings I suspect I don't intend to waste my time visiting a medium on spec. If one agrees to a scientifically observered reading with me, then fine I am happy to do it. But for me to just sit there and have them waffle on will achieve nothing and when I then say, she was wrong, the believers will just come back with a whole list of excuses about me lying or my negative energy interfering with the reading (which they will still do after she is scientifically proved a fraud)

Doubt Google can directly, but a visit to the Births, Marriages and Deaths office would soon give you that, or perhaps a search of the obituaries in the local rags.

I still keep coming back to the "is this really breaking the laws of physics, or is there just possibly some rational explanation for this"

I would be impressed if they could genuinely tell me something that nobody but me would know, "Who do I secretly lust after" would be a good one, only I know the answer to that. When people died, names of family members etc etc is not hard to find out, but usually they get there by guess work. The other possibility is that they can genuinely fortell the future. As they never give you a date when a thing will happen, you won't know for sure if they were right until the day you die, by which time it is too late.

Again if they could say "The lottery numbers for next saturday are..." and they were right, then I would be impressed. Of course they can't otherwise 1000's of psychics would share the jackpot every week. But of course they come out with the "it wouldn't be ethical" or "my powers are to help people not for self gain" etc etc.

I am sorry but I am skeptical about
If she genuinely said "Hi Asif, you Dad died on the 3rd Jan 1998" or similar then I would suggest she had been doing research in advance or had an ear piece and somebody in a back room was feeding her information.

It is amazing how the mind can play tricks on you and because you belive in her, you forget or discount the errors and mistakes made in the process of getting to the answer. All those little misses are far mor significant that getting a single hit. As I have said before, please somebody post an MP3 of one of these fantastic readings. I suspect that you were given a leader, something sufficently vague that you were able to get an association with it, the conversation after that was probably more like:

Sp: "It was cold when your father died?" - Trying to narrow it to winter / summer
You: "Not especially" - probably spring then
Sp: "I see brightly coloured trees" - not sure if spring or autumn so hedging her bets and looking for reactions or confirmation
You: "Ok"
SP: "Was it during the autumn?" 50:50 chance, have a guess
You: "no"
SP: "Ahh it must be blossom on the trees them, it is a bit fuzzy, I thought it may have been the leaves turning red" - OK we know it is spring.
SP: "I feel it was near easter" - pretty sure fire bet, the date of easter moves about and any which way it is in the spring, results in another "yes" from the person being read and draws them in closer
You: "Yes"
SP: "Had he been ill for a while?" - a little side track to get some information while you are off guard that can be used later
You: "No it was quite sudden" - this tells the SP that there is a good chance it was a Heart Attack or something similar.
SP: "And you miss him very much don't you" - obviously otherwise you wouldn't be here
You "Yes"
SP: "Well he is looking down on you and is very proud of you" - just a softner line to draw you in closer.

This kind of thing goes on, getting information that can be used later by which time you have forgotten you have given it and making educated guesses to narrow things down. It isn't rocket science, but as I say, if you want to provide a tape of you saying nothing and her firing acurate statements at you, I would love to hear it!

Another person to have a look at is Darren Brown. This guy really is amazing and in my opinion is far more convincing than any spiritualist. But again he will freely admit it is not a super natural ability, it comes from years of listening to peoples voices and watching body language and working out if they are lying or telling the truth and if a statement he makes is right or wrong depending on if their face flushes up or not and so on.

Spiritualist have to be good enough to fool people, usualy people who want to belive anyway so they don't have to be very good at it.

Magicians make a point of letting people know they are using normal skills that everybody has combined with mis-direction etc to leave you thinking "how did they do that", you know there is nothing supernatural but because they have discounted that, they have to do an even better job with the act for it to be impressive.

moses

**** them buzzer u can be your own spiritualist mate, inspire yourself and rise above

everything is within , just need to find it

Buzzer

Aaaaah the voice of reason comes through the fog of uncertainty

Hi moses

What do you think to Swami Buzzer

moses

lol hows u swami ji or is it the sexy guru ji

mate those spiritualists are minted and frauds

trust me all that stuff u can do yourself for yourself ,see im always happy as if im on hash but i aint on hash but always jolly


when i see people smiling that gives me peace and u do the same smile a smile when it turns into smiles of miles and millions of smiles, only if u smile a while

rb5037

i believed before and when i met derek on holiday and he gave us a reading that was even more proof.

ME CLARE DEREK

AsifScoob

OllyK

As I said, I used to have EXACTLY the same view as you, now I dont, what does that tell you - that im not sceptical enough??

The events and conversation did not happen like that, she asked me no information questions whatsoever, just told me how it was and she was right.

Ive tried to explain it as simply as possible and am only repeating myself.

As I said, you now know more about me than she did, can you tell me the date my Father died? If she did all her research then you should be able to quite easily?

I dont know how to transfer the tape onto anything, what I would suggest, is that anytime we are at a Meet together that I play you the tape there and then in my car. You can then listen and I will be able to explain the relevance of some of the things she was saying, cant say fairer than that.

If you like I can look up her number, speak to her to get her permission to post it up here and you can take things from there.

Asif