milo

i think you're missing the point... in YOUR opinion it's one of life's great pleasures. in mine, it's not.

fwiw, i dont prance around... im more a powerlifter than bodybuilder. not that i would care if u thought that was cheesy... i have the utmost respect for bodybuilders.. and indeed anyone who makes sacrifices for their goals.

not sure how much research you've done about anabolics... but it looks like very little... from your "its odd that anyone would 'pump' themselves full of steroids" mentality. i guess it would seem odd looking at someone else's lifestyle choice when you don't have an open mind, and have done no research to find out why they have to do it this way...

NACRO

Life's pleasures come mainly from the senses- pleasures of the flesh anyway. If you don't find pleasure in food then you are missing out. Perhaps you prefer pumping iron to sex too? The world is full of wierd people.

Research into anabolics is no more than an average person would have, I'm aware that they cause all kinds of problems when used in the long term and offer a quick fix to "athletes" (as you call them) who are too lazy to gain their results naturally. 'Roid Rage is a documented syndrome, of course no-one ever admits to suffering from it themselves, it's always somebody else.

TelBoy

LOL, morning NACRO!!

"Lazy" isn't the issue - in some competitions/events you can't hope to compete without steroids, sadly. What *i* don't understand, is those guys who do drugs for "recreational" purposes, ie just to "get big". What's the point of compromising your health there?

Roid rage is a danger, yes. In fact, contrary to your "observations", most guys i know do accept that their temperament suffers on the juice, and have to attempt to curb their aggression. Denial is actually quite rare, i think you'll find...

milo

WAKE UP! the gains CANNOT be had naturally. do u HONESTLY believe that ronnie coleman would be the size he is without aas? do u HONESTLY believe that people would be benching OVER 800LBS without aas? squatting over 1000lbs? of course not.

that is a REALLY sucky mentality to have.. that these people are too lazy. they are NOT. most of them hit the natural limits first and THEN turned to aas to further enhance their performance. they use the products effectively and safely. take a look at arnie... he was using dianabol... one of the most dangerous steroids... but he used it correctly. he's old now... and still in far better condition than most people in their 20s.

and actually roid rage is NOT documented, so don't even try to persuade people that it is. there has not been one single scientific study ANYWHERE at any time that has proven roid rage. for you to say it's documented when it isn't further shows your ignorance to the subject at hand.

you've admitted you've done no research in the subject. don't then put across popular mis-conception and further mis-educate people into the mis-reputed "evils" of anabolics.

when ABUSED steroids can cause problems. but no more so than alcohol, cigarettes, recreational drugs etc.

OllyK

Hmmm we seem to have wandered here, unless people are cooking their own steroids on a George Foreman Grill

NACRO

quote: "in some competitions/events you can't hope to compete without steroids"

I'm aware of that-it's ******* sad really isn't it? There is no point compromising your health to win anything in my opinion.

As for roid ragers not being in denial, it's only anecdotal but a friend of mine's boyfriend was a heavy user. He used to get into one of his rages and throw her around the house, always denied he had a problem and wondered why he ended up having the crap beaten out of him by her brothers. He was a loser like most steroid abusers. The other steroid abusers I used to meet in the gym (doesn't seem to be widespread here in France) were the kind of pathetic specimens who spent their time trying to out bench press each other for the kudos. Little did they realise us "normal" people were laughing at them from across the gym while we hit on their girlfriends.

TelBoy

Futher note to add that i aslo believe a lot of the temperament "issues" guys display before competitions is due to being bloody hungry most of the time, at least for bodybuilding competitions anyway. I must admit i'm not familiar with the effects of steroids on powerlifters, where strict diet control isn't really an issue.

NACRO

Roid rage? You need to chill out and get back to grilling your bland food on your mug's cooker

TelBoy

Truth be known though NACRO, *many* professional sports have their drugs issues - it isn't just the strength/physique contests. It just goes to show to what lengths people will go these days to win. Is it for the glory? The money? Who knows, but "honest" competition is noe firmly a thing of the past, in all sorts of athletic endeavours. Steroids can never be un-invented now...

milo

its not necessarily compromising your health... when used correctly... no more of a compromise than the people who drink alcohol (in fact considerably less so). remember, it is relative. there are far too many people who get totally drunk, annihilating their liver, and then spout the evils of steroids (not necessarily saying you're a drinker but whatever)

furthermore there ARE competitions for natural athletes that are well tested and regulated. there are NOT generally well watched and therefore not funded as well.

bit like watching motor racing... people would generally rather watch f1 cars driving around at high speed than watch ford fiestas on the track. people like to see extreme.


well.. at least you're calling them "abusers" now

NACRO

I'm sure if it came down to it these people would trade away their entire lives for that elusive win. It's sad that all they have in their lives is 'winning' like Milo here they seem to be lacking in balance, unable to enjoy the wide range of pleasures that life has to offer beyond one narrow and ultimately futile goal. I don't respect that, I pity it.

milo

go back to your cheesy sauce

milo

some might make that trade, yes. it's up to them.

what i pity is those who are so narrow-minded that they can't see that not everyone wants to have exactly the same life.

TelBoy

If it's "futile", why are so many people pursuing it?

Surely the desire to compete is an inherent human trait, no?

milo

apparently not in nacro... thus it can't possibly be a trait of anyone else, otherwise they lack balance and/or are mugs...

NACRO

To compete yes, to cheat just because everyone else is doing it, to the detriment of your own health- just plain stupid and futile.

milo

so what is cheating? aas? too much food? training too much? how does one define what cheating is?

saying taking a supplement to make you perform better is "cheating" is exactly the same as saying training to make you perform better is also cheating.

bottom line... if the substance is legal in the competition, it's not cheating.

TelBoy

There's a lot of futility in the world then. World class sport is full of it.

NACRO

It depends which sport you are talking about doesn't it Milo? If you are talking about a group of people who've all agreed to take performance enhancing drugs then I guess that isn't cheating- just stupidity.
In my book if it isn't natural then it isn't on. I'm not interested in seeing competitions between chemists.

moses

go to superdrugs the big ones, they sell different ones for a tenner does the same job

NACRO

Tel, world class sport may be full of it but most sports ban the use of performance enhancing drugs because most people don't want to see who has the best drug supplier. Rather they want to see people triumphing naturally.
Someone winning because of natural talent and hard work isn't futile- taking drugs to enhance performance is.

milo

do not confuse a sports ban on a performance enhancing drug to mean that people doing that sport do NOT use it.

MANY of these banned substances are completely out of your systems within days or weeks and are undetectable after that time. these "natural" athletes ARE using the drugs... but merely stop them with enough time before a competition. those who truely are 100% natural will fail to make the grade.

the reason why so many people in these "natural" sports get caught with these substances in their systems... they mis-interpreted the half-life of the product... in other words screwed up their cycle.

don't be naive enough to think that just because a substance is on a ban list, it doesn't get used in a cycle x days/weeks/months before a competition.

natural talent and hard work ARE still required. dont think that just because someone is on aas, it means they don't have to bother training. aas are not magic pills that automatically make you better than everyone. they are a SUPPLEMENT to a perfect diet, training regime and rest.

milo

what you have to also bear in mind is that many aas users in sport are using it to allow their body to recover more quickly... enabling them to train harder and more intensely than other athletes. in other words, giving them the ability to work harder safely... NOT to be lazy.

NACRO

I'm aware of that Milo- that's why people like canadian Rusedski get caught. In my opinion there should be testing throughout their training as well (I'm aware there is some already)to stop them taking/abusing performance enhancers. Of course as new products become available these people will take them but eventually they will be caught and then should be banned for life. Leaving them without the one thing that they live for, a fitting and just punishment. Perhaps then they'll either top themselves or realise there is more to life than a single goal.

RichWalk

Competition should IMHO be a balance to life; people compete in differing forms of live on a day to day basis, how far u get/ how much u put into an aim etc is all about pushing yourself, then finding a level where many aspects of live collide constructively- I road raced for several years (pushbikes) until then I had been pretty good at every aspect of life, I trained for hours a day/ rode with top level amatures and still ended up as a very average cyclist! best leveller sport wise I have ever done- hence a natural level of acheivment always wins out wholifically....

blimey that was a bit introspective for Tuesday morning

TelBoy

Sure milo, that's true enough. What's unfortunate though, is that if there were NO anabolic/enhancing drugs in the world, many of today's World Champions would be different people. I get quite angry when i see (especially) women's athletics, and some of them look like muscular freaks. All seems a bit strange to me. Some of the World records set up by those Chinese clones will never be beaten - what has it proved though? That anabolics work? Whoopee, i think we all knew that.

milo

it would be impossible to test throughout their training... as how do we know who's going to be competing in the future? we couldn't possibly test an unknown athlete who may or may not compete in the future. furthermore, in many instances, allowing them to take these substances leads to far more interesting competitions - for instance in powerlifting - the race to bench 1000lbs - it's the frame, bones and tendons that matter at that level - let them use aas to assist them in the muscle gain to get there - we're interested in seeing if anyone has the cns capacity and frame to bench that kind of weight. at that level, nothing else matters.

your opinion of performance enhancing drugs should be banned is due to media conditioning. if they told you that those athletes that eat meat get an advantage over vegan athletes (which they do), would you be saying that athletes shouldnt be allowed meat either?

one thing that aas-allowed events are NOT is a chemist competition... they all have access to the same substances.

lots of people are focussed and determined on a single goal... i dont know why u continue to think they're just "wrong" for not thinking the same way u do.

OllyK

Oh I dunno - a race to see who can find a universal cure for cancer would be pretty good!

milo

see, i dont think many of the world champions would be THAT different (some yes).

given that everyone has the same access to these products and given that the products only ASSIST your training... it still requires that level of determination to get to the top. how many people do u know who run a cycle and get little to no results due to other factors being off? i know of plenty.

i think those people who are champions today would still have that drive.. and would achieve that goal somehow. yes, some would be different.

but again... i'm sure some of the world champions would also be different if we didn't allow other enhancing products such as meat. and would be different still if we only allowed one hour of training a week (let's get the truely naturally talented people - and heck, i think we all knew that more than an hour of training a week works... so why let them?). where does it stop?

TelBoy

For me it stops at the point a subtance has chemically anabolic properties.