Duck_Pond

Will you lot quit using these Quotes? Just use the person's nick and reply. Takes bloody ages to read all this rubbish as it is

IMO it's a sad state of affairs when so-called sports people have to resort to unsporting means to win. I don't care what excuses are used, whether the drugs etc. are used during training or hidden using the latest methods for the event itself - it all boils down to cheating.

NACRO

We are forgetting the most important thing here- the Foreman grill is a crap product for those too stupid to use the grill provided on their oven. Or alternately for those too lazy to clean it. Or perhaps for steroid using muscle freaks trying to bolt down enough protein to meet their training needs.

Whatever it's a crappy niche product that cheapens the once good name of fat boy Foreman (respect is due for what George used to be back in the 70's- truly awesome, not the tub 'o lard we see today)

LG John

So eh, George Foreman - what a guy

TelBoy

Have you ever used one of the Foreman grills, NACRO?

NACRO

Yes, one of the best fights I've ever seen was his classic "Rumble in the Jungle"- not technically but just such an amazing performance from both fighters. Not forgetting of course that he lost- he had been spending too much time grilling bland food and not training, which gave him a great idea to fleece the morons of the world with a great time saving grilling device.

NACRO

quote: "Have you ever used one of the Foreman grills, NACRO"

Not personally, I've seen them demonstrated on TV in a sad infomercial and one of my stupider relatives has one- she cooked me a delicious(not) steak on it. It now sits at the back of the cupboard with all the other crap devices the gullible tart bought.

RichWalk

Yep Foreman great fighter....... Best example I know to contradict this rubbish about pushing boundaries via drugs is Mr Lance Armstrong, fought cancer (and no hes only in remission) came back to a sport notorious for drug use and beat the lot of em' now thats what being a true althlete is about, he could of took blood enhancers etc but didnt and hes still the best.

TelBoy

They serve a purpose i guess, although i too haven't used one, so who am i to pass meaningful judgement? Obviously some people think they have a role to play.

Really silly devices include toasted sandwich makers, ice-cream makers and bread makers - how much cupboard space is being devoted around the country to storing those dust-gathering contraptions?!

NACRO

Armstrong is one of the people I admire the most in the world, he really has true grit and the will to win. A survivor with a sense of perspective about life, read his autobiography, " It's Not About the Bike "- you'll see he isn't focussed on one narrow aim, he seeks improvment in all area of his life.

RichWalk

Nacro; Glad u agree, yep got his book Xmas before last, brilliant read. Its so good to see someone who has acumen & natural talent counter the media led hype that is sport today...... will multiple sports offering huge finacial gains for anyone beating an existing record etc is it any wonder people cheat, until we change the climate that exists not only in sport, there will only be a rare few who acheive true greatness and are worthy of our respect.
Rich.

milo

shock horror... NOT

milo

dont read it then

nobody is giving excuses - if the drug is banned, it's banned. if it's not, it's not. simple as that. MANY sports allow substances that other sports ban... why is it cheating to use them in a sport that allows it?

and more to the point, where does it stop on what should be on the "banned" list. if we're talking about anabolic properties... zinc is a precursor to internal test production... let's ban that too. nobody can consume anything with zinc in... and so on. break it down like that, and before long every athlete on earth will have a diet of berries and roots, and will only be allowed to train once a week but wait... the sugar in the berries causes an insulin spike... that could be cheating...

LG John

I think there should be special events in every competition for juiced up althletes. It would be brilliant to see the results of peeps that are happy to become part man part chemical and if they want to do that let them - the rest of the world might as well enjoy watching some guy bench 1000lbs with one arm or run 100m in 6s prior to having a siezure and dying

TelBoy

Milo, i think there's a clear difference between metabolic enhancers and out-and-out anabolic substances. The first category i agree each athlete should exploit to the best of their ability - including nutrition, training and so on. But when it comes to artificially raising testosterone levels, well, to me that's just a test of who's prepared to risk their health to the greatest extent. No?

Mr Gee

My Missus bought one at Christmas.

The food dont taste too bad to be honest but I need to get the old Kercher out when it comes to cleaning the thing. (LOL)

Mr Gee

LG John

Which makes for good TV IMHO

milo

no, not in my opinion

test levels vary GREATLY.. and can be on average anything at a level of 300-1200 in a male. thats a HUGE difference. why should those born with low test levels not be allowed to adjust this? there are different weight categories for athletes in many sports after all.

let's take strength... out of every generation there's ONE... MAYBE two people severely strong (by that let's take geoff capes.. he NEVER used anabolics and seldom lifted weights.. and yet he was still able to bench press over 600lbs RAW and squat 800lbs+... THIS IS WITHOUT TRAINING). NOBODY else in that generation would have come close without anabolics. what would have been the point in watching those competitions? one guy totally dominating (simply due to being born like that)... nobody else would even have turned up. anabolics evened the score and made it interesting. through capes' choice NOT to use aas, it gave people like bill kazmier (a man who in his own rights is VERY strong - ive WITNESSED him BARBELL CURL 440lbs (not a mis-print) PERFECTLY.. but would not have got to that level without drugs) a chance to make things interesting. was it thru nutrition and training that capes was strong? nope... just a freak of nature. would have made 10 years of strongman competition VERY boring if capes was the only man in it (lets face it, without aas, nobody else COULD have bothered). however, kaz (and others), who got to that level by training his nuts off.. was only able to do that due to aas. why is he the lesser athlete or cheat?

take a look back at bodybuilding in the 70s (thats really the only medium-term plus indicator we have of steroid usage).. when the drug of choice was d-bol.. arguably the most dangerous steroid and VERY liver toxic. guys like arnie were using them. he is FINE now still. surely by your point below, he MUST have risked his health the most? how come he's okay? answer: there is no benefit to mis-using steroids (therefore its NOT a question of risking health). he used them correctly (as did others) in order to increase intensity of his workouts and recovery time (which ENABLED him to work HARDER to win).

TelBoy

My point doesn't infer Arnie was at greatest risk - rather, it was all the other wannabes who took silly doses to try and make up what they lacked in natural potential.

And that's what's still happening today - a win at all costs ethos. Including drugs. Sure, they aren't the most dangerous substances in moderation, but these guys are taking them to excess, to cheat nature.

What is human competition all about, if it cannot be about maximising natural potential? A list of Ben Johnsons who don't deserve their place in history. I can see that it might be interesting to see just how far a drugged-to-the-max human could really push the physical boundaries, but in terms of competition that you and i know from our sports days back at school, anabolic steroids just create a false playing field, where anything is possible to anyone, given the nerve to swallow more pills. That, in my opinion, takes the meaning out of the whole thing.

Chip

Well, I still maintain that you cant beat a cast iron griddle pan.

Chip

milo

But these people DID NOT WIN... arnie won because it is STILL a competition of ability, not drugs. it doesnt matter how much stuff you take... if u dont have the work ethic, some natural ability, desire etc.... you will not win. aas allows everyone to push themselves further and raise the bar... you know its not a free ride. it meant that arnie could lift for 2 hours twice a day. it meant that he could keep overloading his muscles with heavier lifts. a natural person will over train LONG before that point and would never get gains. have u ever seen any of the natural bb'ing comps?


to cheat nature... yes. but only in the sense that any training or non-natural nutrition (vitamins, creatine, processed foods) is cheating nature.

im SURE that the majority of people (if not all) in that event had been on cycles due to wanting to maximise their potential. johnson just came off cycle too late. fwiw, johnson was caught on winstrol (still not sure how - the half-life is 37 hours!!! so maybe it was sabotage as winny can be taken orally and therefore administered without him realising)... and if johnson was deliberately using, then he would NOT have been using winny alone. he'd have been stacking it with test most likely. for others to be able to nearly keep up with him in the race... they were probably on too.

i think of it as "maximising potential"... not maximising natural potential


this, imo, is totally wrong. id LOVE to be given a pill that'd make me win in my field and break some records. the reality is, even those who are using to get to where they want to be... are doing it via hard work. the pills... or more likely (for safety) injectables ... merely allow them to keep the hard work up for longer.

TelBoy

No, Arnie's competitors didn't win, as he had the greater potential. But because everyone else was using them, he was forced to too, just to keep ahead.

So where does that get us? A higher level of achievement, and in some cases different winners to those who would be victorious "naturally". But no real clue as to really is the most gifted, given their God (ahem)-given ability. All i want to see is fair and open competition, where the best man/woman wins, not who has the best methods of avoiding drug detection, and who is able to push their bodies furthest past the point at which it was designed to stop.

However many times the mention of vitamins etc is raised as some sort of analogy to anabolics, it just isn't valid. You know it, i know it, most other people know it. Steroids is a whole other ballgame.

milo

exactly. in bodybuilding there are two main types of contest...
* natural
* non-natural

one is a multi-billion dollar industry in which you can make a stack of money from endoresements and millions of people watch on tv, buy magazines for etc... even pave the way for movie careers for many. this stuff sells products, mags, everything.

the other is an amateur competition in which little or (usually) no money changes hands. no prizes, no nothing.

no prizes for guessing which is which. people WANT to see achievement and the industry is led by this.

you're truely a rarity if you'd rather see natural bb'ers, and natural powerlifters benching 500lbs or less. it seems that most people will only pay to see that continual higher level of achievement.

TelBoy

Absolutely. People wanna see freaks. 24 inch arms, 60 inch chests, 32 inch quads.

Until steroids came along, nobody could dare imagine what sort of shape a human could get themselves into. No going back now.

It's the impressionable yougsters in the gyms around the world i feel sorry for, thinking that more and more Dianabol is their road to fame and fortune....

Chip

Bloody hell. These steroidy type things must **** your brain up as well.

Chip.

milo

which is why it's a pity that there isn't steroid EDUCATION, not a blinkered view that they're just "bad for you" (which unfortunately seems to be held by a lot of scoobynet readers - not you tel i know).

it's only been VERY recently that doctors have generally ACCEPTED that steroids DO improve performance. prior to that, they would merely give the "they're bad for you" speech. a few years ago you could NOT go to a doctors and ask for steroid advice. you can (with some doctors) do that now... not so much in this country... but i know in others you can. this is a step in the right direction.

these youngsters, if probably educated about anabolics would know not to use them that young.. would know there's better alternatives to d-bol... would know what to run in a cycle, what to use when coming off-cycle. WHY to use steroids and WHEN to use steroids. its the horribly blinkered approach and "let's ban steroids.. they're bad cos the media says so" attitude that leads these youngsters to blindly believe that lots of d-bol will make them huge and be afraid to ask otherwise.

the only thing i can say if you're still concerned about naive youngsters buying steroids is that if they're that naive then they're PROBABLY buying counterfeits anyway.. so you needn't worry.

milo

nowhere on here have i said that i personally use steroids... my comment was regarding diet and the fact that i eat purely for function - i'll eat whatever is proven to be best for me athletically. lots of people feel the same way.

TelBoy

Drug education is a double-edge sword for any Government, as displayed by their current agonising over cannabis. On the one hand, it can potentially reduce the harmful side-effects and reduce abuse, but on the other it can be seen as some sort of endorsement.

I might be wrong, but i don't think i'll live to see the day where any UK Government actively sponsors a steroid-awareness programme...

Terzo 333

Well thanks for the comments on the George Foreman Grill - Telboy and milo seem to have forgotten what this thread is about

IMHO I still think the grill is crap and it went back to the shop yesterday for a full refund (unwanted wedding gift )

Matt

RichWalk

random insertion....... no pun intended, one thing I saw amongst the gym guys using steroids was the detrimental effect it had on their sexual prowess, 2 guys I am mates with have never been the same. So in the true sense of Darwin et al who state natural competition benifits a species evolution these guys really are the 'bottom of the scale' how ironic..

NACRO

thanks terzo- that it is a load of old crap has not been disputed. I've eaten food produced on it and to be honest you'd do better eating it raw.