milo

rubbish.. you're suggesting there was no crime (say) in the 70s when it was common place for teachers to do what they wanted.. and a lot of the kids that had been subject to the teachers physical punishments had grown up? in fact, that imho is when things in this country started to take a turn for the worse.

i'm not for one MINUTE suggesting the kids shouldn't be punished. im suggesting it should be the parents' job to do it. if my kid was sent home with a note saying he'd hit another kid or had been making fun of the teacher all lesson, he'd bloody well get punished... by me.

yes, the sad reality is that there are a lot of crappy parents out there who wont do anything about it. it's a HUGE pity.

milo

scared because of what the teacher MIGHT do... not scared because of what the teacher DOES do. thats the difference.

a little fear that a teacher MIGHT get angry is one thing... and you're right, more often than not in retrospect they respect that. but for a teacher to do something about it... how can that gain them respect?

do you think this 11 year old will grow up and think "wow, i really respected that teacher who was bigger and stronger than me that taped my mouth up and scared the **** out of me"?

ajm

Magificently self-contradictory NACRO. You have managed to take a moral stance against bullying, whilst advocating violent bat-weilding retribution and violence. You renounce the act of putting a symbolic piece of tape on a kids mouth, yet you are in favour of bringing back the cane instead.

Hardly a well written argument, if you dont mind me saying.

RichWalk

fisrtly what is a special needs child doing with an 'inexperienced teacher'? typical communication breakdown, the current parametres of classroom discipline stink but need to be followed- the whole system is f**ked from start to finish, teaching children IMO should be a 'clear cut'/ black & white exercise.. yrs ago discipline (sometimes OTT) worked, then lads did national service, funny how the overall product of those generations understand basic respect & decency.

I actually considered being a teacher, still have a few regrets but in the main I am glad I didnt.

milo

i think this may be the issue... that's what the teacher said they did. the parent and the child claim it was a tape right across the mouth.

yes, kids are prone to lie... but i can see the teacher may well have got frustrated and done it more out of anger than anything.

if the kid REALLY was unruley.. wouldn't he have just ripped the "small" bit of "symbolic" tape off and just carried on disrupting? still sounds like the teacher over-reacted.. and that it was more than a small bit of tape.

NotoriousREV

Funny but I'd be the other way: one of my kids comes home and tells me a teacher had to tape his mouth shut to get him to do some work he'd get another bollocking.

ajm

Do you not think you are speculating somewhat? You are intimating that the teacher used physical force whereas the circumstances would suggest something a lot less serious.

Dream Weaver

I'm not suggesting there was no crime back then, but kids (of which I was one in the early 70's) had much more respect for people, property, teachers and the law.

Kids these days are terrible. There are a few that live near me and are just a nightmare. They run past everyones cars twirling iron bars, kicking ***** in the street and hurling stones at cars. We may have done similar in the 70's, but if our parents spotted us doing it we would have been hammered and grounded.

This particular ****** on our street (who has scratched 2 of my cars now with bars) does it whilst his dad just watches and gets away with it.

NACRO

AJM it's fairly well written but definitely contradictory, I just like to foment a little debate is all.

BTW I wouldn't equate an act of child abuse with two adults having a confrontation- even if that confrontation involves one of the adults being tooled up. Sometimes an act of bullying has to be cracked down on with extreme force.

ProperCharlie

virtually every kid has "special needs" these days. if they don't like cheese sandwiches, that's a "special need". and with the satte of the profession, there are more inexperienced teachers than experienced ones. it's just how things are. we don't have an ideal situation where every kid can get the specialist or individual attention that they might benefit from.

milo

only in the same way that you're speculating that it's not serious.

the circumstances don't suggest something a lot less serious - the teacher claims it was not serious (as they would), but the child claims it was serious (as they would).

milo

you've pretty much proven my point... his dad's to blame.

his dad would be a product of the early 70's education system, would he not?

ajm

I'm not convinced that the mother is claiming that the tape was put all the way across the kids mouth (she says "across" but not which way) - but you are right in so far as it cannot be determined from the article.

If she IS actually claiming this then I am still more inclined to believe the teacher because the more I see of these cases with unruly children, the parents come across as irrational and precious about their kids. That is just my personal call, on the balance of probability if you like, as a kidless adult free of the encumbrances and irrational blindspots that come with parenthood

OllyK

Juvenile animals, be it kids or puppies etc are the best maipulators going. They are constantly seeking a "reward" be that food or attention or something else they gives them "pleasure". How many times do you see kids in shops asking thier parents fro something? When the parents say no, they start with the pleading, if that doesn't work they go on to, suggesting that their pocket money is held till the item is paid for and then finally we get the tears. Kids have worked out the tears results in the parent responding by trying to make them feel better and that usualy results in them giving in. Once you have done that once they are more likely to resort to this approach in the future as they know it works. Before long you have a kid that will throw a tantrum at the slightest thing as they know this is effective and skip the previous 2 or 3 steps to get there.

What they need to learn is that being well behaved gets them what they want and throwing a tantrum gets them nothing. Discipline is important, but "whacking" a kid everytime it misbehaves it not necessarily the approach, they become "imune" to the punishment. Occasional severe discipline has a far greater shock factor and is far more effective then regular lesser discipline.

So what happens in schools? Well not much, corporal punishment has been stopped, the teachers can't physically restrain a child unless they are becoming a serious threat to themseleves or others. They can't give a kid a clip round the ear without being hauled up on an assault charge. The kids now know they can play up as much as they want and there is almost nothing a teacher can do about it. As we have seen recently schools have tried to get kids expelled for threatening teachers with knives and god knows what else and the schools are forced to take them back. The kids get a "reward" from getting a rise out of a teacher and the teacher has nothing left in the arsenal to use to counter the behaviour.

I shall generalise here so please no outrage from the parental crew! The only option left for the disruptive kids is to take it to the parents and ask them to sort it. In such cases the kids are already disruptive because they have been able to get away with things at home, have become uncontrollable or been left to run "wild" by the parents and so there is nothing the parents can or will do either. End result the kid realise they can do what they like and nobody can do anything about it.

The PC mob have removed all the tools available to teachers and are getting there with parents as well to enable them to discipline their kids. I am not suggesting that kids should be given 10 lashes with a birch cane and be sent to bed with bread and water everynight, but a well tanned backside now and again is very effective. I can still remember the only time I got my backside tanned by my parents, I made damn sure after that, that I didn't do anything that was likely to result in the same outcome. ery effective!

NotoriousREV

My sister is a primary school teacher. She was recently "under investigation" after an incident at her school. She was talking to the children during assembly about some of the work they were doing when one of the children stood up and started shouting to a friend of his on the other side of the room. She told him to sit down and listen as his work had been particularly bad and he needed to lsten to the information she was giving. His father claimed she had "humiliated" his child in front of the entire school.
Who here above the age of 25 would have dared to stand up and shout across your assembly hall when a teacher was talking when you were 8 years old?

C

Not me for sure!

Thats the trouble, I cannot believe kids these days & im only 25 FFS as soon as they get told off they play one of many cards which ends up getting the teacher suspended...

My Mother is a 'house matron' in one of the (supposedly) best private schools in Britain, looking after the young 'uns, she has been told that if an 8/9/10 yr old hurts themselves, they are under no circumstances to 'touch' the child, or give it a quick hug etc (which can sometimes make all the difference) for fear from the parents twisting it to be something it's not (possibly sexual etc)

They spend so much time covering thier asses, they dont get half the work done they should do!

I say bring back public humiliation in the classroom, bring back the cane (and publically) and teach the little ****s some discipline, or we will carry on turning into the USA and having a blame/sue culture which is beyond a joke

OllyK

School assembly, makes me shiver just thinking about it. We had an assembly Hitler called Mr Heaton. He'd be eagle eyes on all of us during assembly and if he spotted anything all you would hear is this booming voice "You...Yes You boy, come here...NOW". You would then be dragged out of the hall to the foyer by the sideburn hair (ouch - just try it on yourself!) and place in front of a notice board. He'd draw a spot on the board and place you about 2 inches from the board and you'd get to the spend the rest of the assembly "spot staring". If you were lucky that was it, if not detention

Mice_Elf

Certainly not I...

Distinctly remember one assembly taken by the headmistress. We had a very strict dress code in our school, right down to the colour of the hair bands we were allowed to wear.

In the midst of the assembly, Miss Morse stopped and thundered "Sarah Ashton - come to the front here, please!" Sarah went forward and it continued "What colour hairband do you have in?"
"Green"
"And what colours are you ALLOWED to wear in this school?"
"Blue or Black"
"Can you therefore provide a feasible explanation for why you have a green hairband?"
"No"
"See me after assembly."

Sarah had the green hairband removed, an elastic band proffered in its place and a letter sent home to her parents reminding them of the school dress code.

On another occasion a girl called Heidi Grady used to hairspray her fringe so that it stuck straight up. She was seen and marched into the girls' locker room and had her hair forcibly washed by a teacher called Miss Davies, who then brushed it for her.

On neither occasion did the parents cry foul and start seeing compensation.

milo

visions of "theres something about mary"

Mice_Elf

LOL...!

Certainly nothing of that kind going on at my school! The headmistress still used words like "canoodling!

TelBoy

At my junior school, it was a known punishment for any or us daring to utter anything approaching a swear word to have their mouths washed out with soap and water.

As far as i am aware, no parent/school court cases are still pending.

Today's pc'ness in schools is complete rubbish. Teach the kids properly. Teach them discipline. Teach them respect. It isn't difficult. And hey, it even works.

RichWalk

Notorious- youve got it spot on with the retro comments; My Dad (& mom) were taechers for their whole wking lives- on the rare occassion my dad disciplined a child and the parents came in ranting, he sat and waited with they shouted, then said if to them "if you son had said/done this to you what would your response have been- time after time the answer was 'belted the little sod'

When I was 12/13, I never even used to look at older lads in the street let alone shout at teachers/ vandalise cars etc. If I misbehaved I got caned at school or smacked at home, or punched by an older kid- never did me the slightest (lasting) harm!
WTF is wrong with our society, is it now completely run by lilly livered t**sers? Anarchy is not too far away in some areas now, If these fools are allowed to continue god knows what the level of deteriation this country will suffer!

specialx

The way i was raised is now classed as child abuse & I love my mum&dad for bringing me up the way they did, if I was a bad lad i was beaten and did not do it again!(because talking to kids does not work!!) Kids today have NO respect for anyone not even themselves! I had a 15 year lad leaning on my scoob giving me cheek the other day and when I went over to him he siad "why what are you gonna do? you can't hit me!" " oh yeah" i said before punching him on the nose! I think he learnt a very good lesson that day!

but on the other hand i used to work for a car rental company and one day we went to collect a stollen car from a rough estate in Notts when we got to the car there were 2 young lads ripping out the stereo we pulled them out of the car only for them to come back with there Dads!!! "If my lad wants the stereo let him have it!" for gods sake I have heard it all now!!

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Jerome which teacher was that? IIRC all our art teachers were there to be provoced and laughed at Unlike the CDT teachers that used to throw hammers at you

Oh yes the good old days.

Mice_Elf

Our CDT Teacher was fired after we found a copy of PlayBoy in his office.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Will you lot stop talking about school assemblies!!! I am 34 and am getting shivers down my spine!!!

Also my dad belted me once that I can remember I got smacked occasionally but this time he made me bend over then whack 3 times!! I can still feel it.

I was alwas warned if I ever got the cane or caused trouble at school I was for it when I got home. I used to get a bollocking when I got detention FFS.

The 70's and 80's were great at school

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I can 100% concur with this!!!!!1

Geezer

Not at all, you don't know how old he is! He could be in his early 20,s and be a product of the namby pamby late 80's & 90's education which continues to this day.

You're right parents should discipline their children, but there are always going to be lowlifes to couldn't give a **** about their kids behaviour, and you will not change their attitudes. In that case, why shouldn't the teachers be allowed to discipline them?

We had 'bad lads' at school, but their behaviour at school was alot better than their behavior out of it because they respected (and in some cases feared) the teachers.

Geezer

Mice_Elf

Trouble is, today's society is very much "not my fault". Parents mainly seem to expect the state to bring up their children and pay for the privilege but then moan like crazy if the state actually tries to do this.

Time was a child could fall over and hurt itself - grazed knee / elbow - and they'd get a cuddle, some sympathy, maybe a plaster (because everything was made better with a plaster!) and sent on their way. Nowadays a child falls over and grazes its knee and the parents are waging war on someone to get some money.

Jerome

Wurzel,

The art teacher was from a school I went to before moving to Crowthorne, but you're right, most of the teachers at Edgbarrow were there to be laughed at...