milo

fact is.. he probably is a product of the 70s education... it's the children of this generation that SEEM to be what MOST people complain about. since it's the parent's fault, it must also be THEIR (the parents') education's fault. if he's not of the 70s, fine.. but PLENTY are.


in that case, why shouldn't i, as an adult, be allowed to discipline YOUR kids?

the teacher should REMOVE the kid from the school, not have some god-given right to discipline some stranger's kid in the way they see fit. if you're talking about non-violent discipline.. fine. i'm (maybe wrongly) assuming you're talking about any discipline the teacher wants.

parents are essentially FORCED to put their kids in school.. the kids are essentially FORCED to be there. to then tell a parent that a teacher can discipline the kid HOWEVER they want... that's not school... that's prison.

if the teacher can't properly discipline the child without violence, then there's one of two things wrong... either:

* teacher is incompetent, so should find another career.. or get better trained (i'd argue that teachers should be paid MUCH more... to attract more competent people into the profession but that's another story)
* pupil is TOTALLY unruley and should be removed from that school

PG

My GF is in the process of doing her teacher training.
When you see the "tools" they are given to deal with unruley little ***** you will understand why things go so wrong

OllyK

And when I was a kid they did. You got caught up to mischief by an adult and you'd get a clip round the ear and think twice about doing it again. These days the kids know their "rights" and would scream assault if you even tried to grab hold of them to take them to the police. They know they are protected and goad adults and just generally take the pi**

They do, the kid appeals and 2 days leter the expulsion is over ridden and they are right back there, taking the mickey even more as they know they can get away with it.

Don't think anybody is suggesting elecrtoshock therapy or hanging, but a clip round the ear or a smack on the wrists with a ruler is hardly going to cause serious physical injury.

Very often point 2 and as stated, they appeal and are back there again in no time, what kind of message does that send to the kid? It is hardly going to make them better behaved.

Geezer

Yes, I would expect you to discipline my children if you caught them doing something wrong! Are you the type of person who just stands idly by whilst people do whatever they want then!

We have a collective responsibility to ensure that the younger generation learn how to behave, which obviously starts at home. I don't know your circumstances, but personally I cannot monitor my children every waking hour of the day. I expect their teachers, and other adults to help ensure they do not get out of control.

Are you happy for your children to run amok just because you are not there to discipline them then?

Geezer

milo

not at all... but one person's discipline is not the same as another's.

if my idea of discipline was to beat the kid within an inch of it's life.. would u still want me disciplining your kids?

fact is, if i had to i'd probably just yell at them (more likely i'd tell YOU about it and get YOU to deal with it)... but not everyone thinks that way.

i sure wouldn't want some 280lb monster beating the living snot out of my 11 year old because he thought it was "the right thing to do from a disciplinary point of view"...

if my kids were running amok?... i'd expect to be told about it and I'D "discipline" them...

OllyK

Who has suggested that approach?? That is a beating not discipline. I think most people are agreed we are talking about the level of discipline many of us grew up with, a smack on the bum from your parents, a clip round the ear from an adult or the local bobby. A ruler across the knuckles or wrists at school, sufficient discomfort / pain to provide a shock not to cause phsical injury. I think you are taking an extreme line and rolling extreme physical duress in to discipline.

milo

to SOME people that will be discipline

certainly to lots, way more than a smacked *** is discipline. PLENTY of people still believe canings should happen. to me thats going FAR above what i would call discipline.

that's the point - ANY form of violence (including smacked bums) is open to VERY wide interpretation.

and at the end of the day, if you've got an adult saying "i only smacked his ***" and a kid saying "he beat the **** out of me"... who do you believe?

OllyK

The bruises!

milo

some people bruise easily, some dont.

would feel sorry for the kid who doesnt bruise but still took a beating.

likewise would feel sorry for the parent who smacked his kids bum once and it came up in a massive great bruise.

Sith

There are alot of kids now adays that need a damn good kicking to make them realise that they should respect others and elders.

So many are mouthy little scum lapping **** bags of puss that simply do not deserve to be alive or procreate. They merely polute the gene pool.

There seems to be no one who is prepared to stand against the do-gooders and say that kid's should get a lick in the head when at school or at home when they have done something wrong.

The animal kingdom keeps things in check by enforcing discapline through the ranks. The humans aren't, so society is turning in to a pool of scum where they can get away with what they want and you get done fore defending yourself or remenstrating with these blights of human excrement.

OllyK

Time to introduce a breeding licence

Chip

But if he'd been brought up to show restect and behave then the teach wouldnt have had to do what he did.

Chip

Sith

Olly - Oh, I couldn't agree more. Kid's shouldn't be a right, you should be able to show you can look after them and not rely on the state to provide for them.

Jerome

Further to what I said earlier, any kid who gets traumatised by having his mouth taped is going to have a hard time dealing with all the bullies that are now going to target this mouthy wimp...

OllyK

Sith - wasn't quite expecting that response, I ws just looking for my flame suit!

I just ponder now and again, that all aniamls are heavily affected by natural selection, the weakest fail to survive, the species evolves and things get better. If time are hard the weaker die off, the healthier survive and pass on their genes and it also stops over population and many diseases that go with it.

As humans we have kind of removed ourseleves from all that. We have doctors and hospitals to make the sick better, we support and look after the weak and the sick. I am not suggesting that we revert to the rules of the jungle, just think SOME people should try and help themselves a little more and rely less on others. And that those who are relying on the state to support them and their families should think not just twice but 3 or 4 times before they bring another child in to the world.

Sith

Olly, No flames from me on that...

Luan Pra bang

Too many teachers are usless vindictive idiots and I witnessed teachers unleash instant temper tantrum violence upon students which in my opinion is unforgiveable and counter productive. When you get hit and kicked by a teacher in primary school a detention becomes a completely useless tool for punishment in secondary school. I had some good teachers who inspired children in their classes and never had discipline problems and yet the same classes could be a nighmare for the crap teachers. A closer study of the Physcology of teaching and keeping children interested from a young age would be far more effective than corporal punishment.

ajm

We have done this subject in great depth in thread a while back, and those who participated will be more than familiar with my opinions on this. Suffice to say you are not wrong in what you are saying!

farmer1

Sorry but I was in a lesson today, were we had a supply teacher. Now I go to a grammar school so most people would expect a decent level of behaviour. But what was supposed to be a lesson, turned out to be a see how mad we can make the teacher exercise. As the troublemakers new that they wpuld recieve no real punishment.

So the teacher spent most of the lesson shouting at random people, and writing out pastoral detention forms which in my honest opinion does not work.

Lunch time detentions do not work, most after school detentions are withdrawn after a parent has complained, and the school hasn't got the guts to suspend anyone because it will look bad on the school.

IMHO it is the students who are running the school and teachers have lost all control and discipline. On a number of occasions I get very annoyed that I cannot continue with my work because somebody is desrupting the lesson, but what is more annoying is the teacher won't do anything about and thus the whole class suffers.

IMHO we need a tiered education for those who are intelligent, those who want to work and those who are darn right lazy.

StickyMicky

i was grabbed by the throat and lifted off the ground by one of my teachers for being naughty, ive been clipped round the lugs and genraly ruffed up

who gives aflying **** about a bit of tape, god i think sum of you southerners were brought up in cotten wool!!!!

PG

I remember the day a P.E teacher threw a javalin at one of my classmates when he ran away having dropped a rock on to the starting pistol caps he stole
Pitty it missed as the guy was a rub !!

jaf01uk

I'll put my "Them were the days" hat on for a bit, we used to get the belt (a leather strap with a thong at the end) when we were at school and by christ that had an immediate affect on your behaviour, if our parents found out we got another smack at home for being a tw@t!
If we saw a copper coming if we were on a "building site" we used to leg it at full speed!
If we were somewhere we wern't supposed to be and an adult (bloke) roared at us we were off!
Nowadays the schools cant give detention - isolating kids?
They dont want school sports - Too competitive? Then the government moan that kids are overweight??
I have witnessed kids first hand cheeking up the cops at jobs, lobbing missiles at fire and ambulance vehicles,
If parents try to discipline kids they get threatened with "Childline"
Seems to me that the lunatics are indeed running the assylum!!!
I'm only 38, Gary

OllyK

Yeah right - you just end up with better educated yobs with rich parents! A Mate of mine got suspended before his A Levels for making platique in Chemistry class! He went on to get 5 Grade A's and 2 S Levels with offers from Oxford and Cambridge. We held a sweep stake on how long it would be before he blew himself up, to my knowledge he is still alive, but a few duck ponds and phone boxes as well as his parents bath were not so lucky.

Duck_Pond

"but a few duck ponds and phone boxes as well as his parents bath were not so lucky"

I've never seen him before in my life officer.

All this manure about this unruly snotter... - why should he get sympathy? What's the world coming to? The teacher ought to get the rest of the class to sue the noisy git for disrupting their lessons with his constant chatter. Claim for loss of future earnings etc. due to not being able to receive their entitled education.

Children should be seen and not heard.

Here endeth the lesson.

scoobypreza

I'm a teacher
I'm female, 25 and 5ft2"

If I was your supply teacher Farmer1 what should I have done??

OllyK

Sharks are gonna pounce on that one!

Ratman

From a teacher

"I blame the headmasters as well as the parents, of course. Any decent HM worth his salt (10 yrs ago they existed) would have had ther skills to diffuse the situation and give some sense of perspective to the "idiot" mother. Today, the new breed are PC cretins and have not the wits, the bravery nor the skill to do this. Instead they lose all perspective and ALWAYS take the parent's side against the staff - no matter how ridiculous the allegation.

Being an old hack at this job, I'm always careful to suggest to the pupil that they tape over their own mouth. They normally love the attention of this (they don't get it at home these type of kids - which is why the parents erupt partly in guilt) and willingly do it. I've known kids sit for 1 1/2 hours with sellotape right across their mouths and do shedfulls of work as a result.

Nice to see the Scooby crowd (mostly) seem to have a level view of this and don't take the extreme views that have arisen as a result of being in a tolerent society.

A pupil showed me a letter her mum had written to the deputy HM where she lambasted her business studies teacher for sending pupils, who talked too much, out of the class, and at the same time complaining that her daughter's results were poorer recently and the teacher hadn't done anything about it. In the letter she questioned this teacher's credentials. What the girl didn't know is that this experienced teacher had quit over this issue, since the senior management at out school had refused to offer any help over discipline (it's OUR (teachers') fault that students are badly behaved - nothing to do with the senior management!).I pointed out to the girl that she, and her chatting, were actually and also the bain of my life, and perhaps it was her ill-discipline, and that of her chums that has resulted in this chatting and poor results.

Modern schools are more like cafes as far as kids are concerned. As far as many of the parents I've met are concerned, schools are free child minding centres so they can go off an have the career they wanted before they had kids. ABout the only people who take education seriously are the teachers! And they're been replaced by a natural selection process by people who are only motivated by statistics and performance results."


Ratman

Sith

Scoobypreza - If you were a supply at the Secondary I went to you would have been told to sit on the desk with your legs open.
My school was more like a prison. One English teacher was given a nervous breakdown, locked in a cupboard, drawing pins placed on chair, had things thrown at her and received copious amounts of verbal.
One math teacher got pushed around, shouted at, work rubbed of the board etc.

In short not nice, this was 15 years ago. So I hate to think what it is like now judging the scruffy monkeys that I see at the bus stop.

The only teachers that got respect were those that shouted and slammed fists on tables. The kids crapped themselves. They knew that the teacher would get physical if need be. It worked. In those lessons everyone behaved themselves.

Punishment needs to be brought back. The cane, slipper, wooden ruler or what ever. Something needs to be done to show the kids of today that there are consequences for your actions. Maybe less would then hassle the public and go on to a life of crime.

farmer1

Provided you started the lesson, with the correct approach, I believe you may have been able to ascertain a level of discipline suitable for work to continue.

Without getting personal in my honest opinion femal teachers just do not work very well in all boys schools.

(I will put myself in your shoes here- so when I refer to I, I am referring to myself as a female suply teacher)

However my suggestion would be to set the standard at the beginning of the lesson. As all pupils wait outside of the classroom, I would try to make it clear that respect is expected by simply asking them to walk in quietly. Once they are in there places I would ask them to stand whilst the register is being taken and then say be seated once the register is completed. I would set out the work I require to be complete by the end of the lesson. This way your expectations are clear.

I have seen the above mentioned method work very well from male teachers, however I have not seen a female member of staff take this approach- therefore I cannot say it will work. However I feel one of the problems with female members of staff is their "mumsy" attitude. IMHO adolescentboys do not respond to this very well.

I accept that in my original post I may have blamed the supply teacher a bit to much, but the real problems are caused by government/school policy on the lack of suitable punishment. IMHO corprol (sp?) punishment or alternative should be re-introduced. I cannot clearly see a defined way forward as I have not experienced other ways, but IMHO what we have at the moment is clearly not working.

farmer1

Sith you have hit the nail on the head, all I see in school is about 50% of pupils trying to disrupt the lesson and see how long it will be before they can make the teacher cry etc.

As another example of my trouble some french set, we once had this male supply teacher, who I know quite well, who as soon as the class started there little "game". Literally slammed his and as hard as possible just in front of somebody's hand and went to headbut 1 of the pupils who was clearly trying to disrupt the lesson but stopped about 1cm away from the guys head.

Needless to say the entire class was silent for the remaining 50 minutes and completed a tremendos amount of work.

Not only that but whatever lesson this teacher now takes respect and courtesy is instantly given, he has never blown up since and many pupils can talk to him about issues.

So was he wrong to do this, personally I don't thinks so.