Sorry.....

 

Mike,

This is what I wrote: "Please try and objectify what you subjectively feel toward my opinions."

Subjective opinion is one that is distorted by emotion or personal bias. So, when I ask that people try and ‘objectify’ their subjective opinions/feelings, I am simply asking that one should try and reverse the distortion as much as they can by dulling their emotions and their personal bias. It's not an unusual concept; it can be done, although it’s by no means a cure for subjectivity

With regards to your first hand (isolated) experiences witnessing 911’s unable to handle as well as accompanying M3’s, and your attempt to pass these independent observations off as facts, I will ask you this:

How do you account for the outstanding track record (pardon the pun) that the 911 has achieved in various forms of motorsport, including the WRC?

Those achievements are what I prefer to call ‘facts’.


Matt Holcomb



[This message has been edited by MPH (edited 15-06-2000).]

 

OH YAAAAAAAWWWWWWNNN

 

Matt, your profile says you're a writer... fiction possibly?

 

...think he has been watching too many movies

 

MPH,

Can you please tell me when a Porsche 911 of any sort won a WRC round?. As far as I know, the last time anyone succesfully rallied a 911 they were competing against Mini Coopers, Alpine GTAs and Escort Mexicos (and still they didn't win many).
Perhaps you would like to tell us how many world rally championchips Porsche has won?.

The reason for this is simple. The crude semi-trailing rear arm suspension and rear-biased weight distribtution of most 911 models create a propensity to spin which is greatly exacerbated on low friction surfaces. Even in regular circuit-based competition all but the most dogmatic competitors and commentators recognise that success has been gained in spite of this configuration rather than as a consequence of it.

Please don't bother to mention Paris-Dakar 959s - they have as much in common with your 911 as a model rocket does with a Saturn V.

What possible inference can be drawn regarding the relative performance of a WRX and an early 911 by reference to their respective competition models? - Absolutely none at all. In summary, please refrain from confusing 'fact' with supposition.

Regards,

Alex

 

Matt,
But that is only because the car has been around for soooooo long. I'm not denying the build quality, which is why it does so well at endurance racing, but when was the last time a Porsche won something outside of this?

In it's heyday it was a very accomplished car at various levels of motorsport, but now it has been superceeded in every respect bar the endurance side of things, and even then the Yanks are seeing it off with their tanks that they pass off as cars (aka Vipers ).

Your arguement is really based on the fact that once upon a time Porsche were dominant in racing - not anymore.....

Wake up and smell the saki...
Mike
PS. It is still impossible to be objective about anything. Sit down and think about it. Even trying to not put an emotive view on things will still mean that your opinion will be tainted by your own personel view of things / life, no matter what you say or think. It is just impossible for ANY opinion to be ANYTHING other than subjective.

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 15-06-2000).]

 

MPH - what a devastatingly clever experiment you have conducted!

You have demonstrated that provocation causes reaction.

You should train as a psychologist and make a career out of it!

I might even give you a job, then you could afford an RS lightweight.

 

Mike, OK,

"Compared to ..;" etc etc ...

The problem with this kind of discussions is that the real crux of the matter never comes up, because we're now all defending a POV ...

As far as I can judge an article (SportAuto again), the real supercar that would indeed (finally ...) eat a WRX for breakfast is ... the new Porsche Turbo. It went round the Ring in 7:56, which is truly amazing, and had higher cornering speeds than the Impreza.
Not first hand experience, mind you.

Still, I'm glad for having only paid one fifth for my Scoob. If that's because I'm just a poor slob, or because I like value for money, that's for MPH to decide in his "objective" mind...

Theo [crap driver, so the Scoob is enough Evil beast for me]

 

Quick.... call up a naturalist... its a wide mouth tree frog






[This message has been edited by madbrit (edited 15-06-2000).]

 

Consider this my last post here at the ScoobyNet BBS; my tactical encroachment has manifested into something much bigger than I anticipated. If you still want to joust, you know where you can find me

Okay.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Alex wrote: Can you please tell me when a Porsche 911 of any sort won a WRC round?

Perhaps you would like to tell us how many world rally championchips Porsche has won? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alex, see for yourself!

<B> Porsche 911 rally successes 1965-87’ </B>

In races counting toward the rallies of the World/European Rally Championship series.

1965: 5th overall Monte Carlo

1966: European GT Rally Champion
1st overall Austrian-Alpine
1st overall German
1st GT Alpine
4th overall Tulip

1967: 1st overall Austrian Alpine
1st overall Lyon-Charbonniere
1st overall Tulip
1st overall Geneva
3rd overall Danube
1st overall Marathon de la Route

1968: European Rally Driver’s Championship.
1st & 2nd overall Monte Carlo
1st overall Geneva
1st & 2nd overall East German
1st overall Danube
1st overall Spanish
1st overall Swedish
1st & 2nd overall German
1st overall San Remo
1st & 2nd overall Marathon de la Route

1969: 1st overall Danube
1st overall Swedish
1st overall Acropolis
1st overall Polish
1st overall Monte Carlo
1st overall Tour de France
1st overall Tour de Corse

1970: European Rally Champions
1st & 2nd overall Monte Carlo
1st overall Austrian Alpine
1st overall Swedish
1st overall Danube
2nd overall Lyon-Charbonniere
1st Bodenese Rally

1971: 2nd overall RAC

1972: 2nd overall Monte Carlo
2nd overall East African Safari
2nd overall Swedish

1974: 2nd overall Safari

1978: 1st Rally Monte Carlo
2nd Safari Rally

1979: 1st tour of Italy

1980: 1st tour of Corsica
European Rally Champions

1984: FISA Middle East Rally Championship for Manufacturers
FISA Middle East Rally Championship for Drivers
Belgian Rally Championship
Swedish Special Production Car Championship

1985: FISA Middle East Rally Championship
German Rally Trophy
WON Super Saloon Asphalt – Denmark
Belgian National Rally Championship
WON Luxemburg Hill Climb
WON Pharaon Rally – 959

1986: Paris-Dakar; 1st, 2nd and 5th overall - 911 & 959

1987: Belgian National Rally Championship

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Alex wrote: What possible inference can be drawn regarding the relative performance of a WRX and an early 911 by reference to their respective competition models? - Absolutely none at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Historically there always been little difference between production 911’s and their competition versions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Mike wrote: I'm not denying the build quality, which is why it does so well at endurance racing, but when was the last time a Porsche won something outside of this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, shall I list the endurance results of the 911 between 1965-96’? Just kidding. As far as the 911 winning anything outside endurance events, have I not just answered that question?!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Mike wrote: Your arguement is really based on the fact that once upon a time Porsche were dominant in racing - not anymore..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An answer to that depends on what events or Championship series’ you’re referring to. Touring Cars? IMSA? GT Sports Cars? Le Mans? Those are all high profile series'/events that the 911, at one time or another, has made its own.

Here in Australia the 993 RSCS has won the prestigious GTP production series championship several times since the introduction of the RSCS in 1995. A 996 GT3 currently leads the 2000 championship, ahead of another GT3, a 360 Modena, and a Diablo SV.

In another prestigious Australian event, the Targa Florio-inspired Targa Tasmania (www.targa.org.au), a GT3 won the 2000 Targa outright, while a 1996 993 Twin Turbo won the 97’ 98’, and 99’ events outright. Older, classic Porsches routinely dominate the event's CLASSIC class.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Mike wrote: PS. It is still impossible to be objective about anything. Sit down and think about it. Even trying to not put an emotive view on things will still mean that your opinion will be tainted by your own personel view of things / life, no matter what you say or think. It is just impossible for ANY opinion to be ANYTHING other than subjective. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand and respect the basis for your argument. See, it’s not impossible!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Zoog wrote: MPH - what a devastatingly clever experiment you have conducted!

You have demonstrated that provocation causes reaction.

You should train as a psychologist and make a career out of it!

I might even give you a job, then you could afford an RS lightweight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Zoog, are you being sarcastic?! You mean I could get paid for provoking reactions?! Imagine that!

PATIENT: I’m about to lose my mind; I can’t stop the tyres on my Subaru Impreza WRX from heating up. What am I to do?

DR. HOLCOMB: Buy a Porsche 911, and your mind will become whole again. That’s all the time I have for you today.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> EvilBevel wrote: The problem with this kind of discussions is that the real crux of the matter never comes up, because we're now all defending a POV ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I see it, the real crux of the matter is that our respective cars have earned our fierce loyalty. My intention was not to question your individual reasons for buying various incarnations of the WRX, but to ascertain if some of you were as fanatical and as biased as myself! It’s just that the opposing fanaticism between the marques is getting out of control in Australia, with some inter-club events becoming cockfights, and on road encounters becoming dangerously confronting. I just wanted to know if it was yet another trait that we Australians (I’m really a Yank) have inherited from the mother country!

LET’S NOT WASTE ANY MORE OF EACH OTHER’S TIME!

Matt Holcomb
--------------------
1974 911 Carrera 2.7



[This message has been edited by MPH (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

MPH..

You are starting to seriously embarrass other Australians on this BBS, who have actually met these people.

Now from that *sigh* exhaustive list that you presented as "evidence" none of those were actually WRC events. Hmmm You should check before cutting and pasting the Rally history of Porsche.

Yes, Porsche has a fine competition history but let's not bend the facts by trying to prove the have a fine WRC history. There is a fine distinction which people in Melbourne may not understand.

Oh and Rally 911's... Sorry been there done that and co-driven them errm before they became Ahem Historic rally cars...

Now, just settle back into your nice St Kilda apartment and watch Blue Heelers there's a good lad..

Richard

Edit on...

Just re-read your post
[QUOTE]In another prestigious Australian event, the Targa Florio-inspired Targa Tasmania (www.targa.org.au), a GT3 won the 2000 Targa outright, while a 1996 993 Twin Turbo won the 97’ 98’, and 99’ events outright. Older, classic Porsches routinely dominate the event's CLASSIC class[/Quote}

YOU REALLY ARE A TOTAL PRATT!!!!

Don't you even realise that the organising committee of the Targa Tasmania does not allow WRX / STI to compete? DUH!! Check their website and the WRX clubs in Aussie who are considering running their own event as they are not allowed to show up the German cars..

You really need to check you're facts out.

[This message has been edited by rsquire (edited 16-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by rsquire (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rsquire:
<B>MPH..

You are starting to seriously embarrass other Australians on this BBS, who have actually met these people.

Now from that *sigh* exhaustive list that you presented as "evidence" none of those were actually WRC events. Hmmm You should check before cutting and pasting the Rally history of Porsche.

Yes, Porsche has a fine competition history but let's not bend the facts by trying to prove the have a fine WRC history. There is a fine distinction which people in Melbourne may not understand.

Oh and Rally 911's... Sorry been there done that and co-driven them errm before they became Ahem Historic rally cars...

Now, just settle back into your nice St Kilda apartment and watch Blue Heelers there's a good lad..

Richard

[/quote]

I want to leave this BBS!

Richard, what the **** do you think this means?

<B> "In races counting toward the rallies of the World/European Rally Championship series." </B>

I did not invent that line, it prefaced THAT list of official 911 rally results.

Do you think perhaps that it's because some of these events listed are no longer part of the WRC? Huh?!



[This message has been edited by MPH (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

you are simply using Cut and Paste to replace intelligence

IDIOT

Crawl back under the rock in Bass Strait that you came out from

Richard

 

And the moral of this long and totally poinltess post on a Scooby BBS is ??????

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by rsquire:
<B>you are simply using Cut and Paste to replace intelligence

IDIOT

Crawl back under the rock in Bass Strait that you came out from

Richard

[/quote]


Richard,

Unlike your BOSS, I prefer to tell the truth!

 

Oh Yeah and i notice that you chose to ignore this quote of mine

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Don't you even realise that the organising committee of the Targa Tasmania does not allow WRX / STI to compete? DUH!! Check their website and the WRX clubs in Aussie who are considering running their own event as they are not allowed to show up the German cars..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard

Come on Son gimme some coz ya ain't gonna win.. Not with that Wide Mouth Yellow Frog

 

Well Comne on then

You seem to have either an extremely selective memory or can't cut and paste fast enough..

So have you checked out the Targa's rules yet??

Richard

Still reckon the Blue Car would flatten a Yellow Wide Mouth Frog

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Don't you even realise that the organising committee of the Targa Tasmania does not allow WRX / STI to compete? DUH!! Check their website and the WRX clubs in Aussie who are considering running their own event as they are not allowed to show up the German cars... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Show me where on the official TARGA site where it says that the organising committee banned the WRX/STI.

 

Matt,

I visited "your" 911 BBS and was not at all surprised to find that your posts on that board were pedantic, pretentious, pompous drivel too!

I note that your boring list of stats doesn't include a single win from 1970 to 1978. Your car was a '74, oder?

Perhaps it's time to let this thread grow old and die gracefully . . . Perhaps you should do the same too mate?

Suresh

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Suresh:
<B>Matt,

I visited "your" 911 BBS and was not at all surprised to find that your posts on that board were pedantic, pretentious, pompous drivel too!

I note that your boring list of stats doesn't include a single win from 1970 to 1978. Your car was a '74, oder?

Perhaps it's time to let this thread grow old and die gracefully . . . Perhaps you should do the same too mate?

Suresh[/quote]


No wins from 1970 to 1978 you say?

1970: European Rally Champions
1st & 2nd overall Monte Carlo
1st overall Austrian Alpine
1st overall Swedish
1st overall Danube
2nd overall Lyon-Charbonniere
1st Bodenese Rally

1971: 2nd overall RAC

1972: 2nd overall Monte Carlo
2nd overall East African Safari
2nd overall Swedish

1974: 2nd overall Safari

1978: 1st Rally Monte Carlo
2nd Safari Rally

As far as my Porsche BBS posts being pedantic, pretentious, pompous drivel, well that my friend is a highly subjective opinion!

 

Did I say anything about their site I said the rules..

Richard

 

Matt,
No that was an "unbiased" opinion, but would have still been subject to subjectivity, because that's how us humans work, we gain information from life experiences that enable us to make decisions / opinions - ipso facto - subjective ones...
Mike
PS. Also, the majority of wins posted have all been in the past (just like I said), before Cossies and Imprezas existed. If there was a race series that allowed these cars to compete together, I don't think the Porsches would get a single win..... (other than through "retirements")



[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

Oi pedant!

Why are you still here?

 

Hey,, Michael

Just go and thrash the nuts of that Scoobie thing of yours

How ya keeping ? Oh and why are you slantering Ford again <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>other than through "retirements") <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard

[This message has been edited by rsquire (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

Hi Richard,
I'm fine thanks - Scooby? Don't tell me they have told you about the works "run-a-bout" as well?!

How's your gorgeous wom... - er I mean car .
LOL
Mike
PS. Hope to see you again at any future events that you will be attending...
PPS. Ooooooh you bitch , I was meaning when the Scoobies crash....

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike Rainbird:
<B>Matt,
No that was an "unbiased" opinion, but would have still been subject to subjectivity, because that's how us humans work, we gain information from life experiences that enable us to make decisions / opinions - ipso facto - subjective ones...
Mike
PS. Also, the majority of wins posted have all been in the past (just like I said), before Cossies and Imprezas existed. If there was a race series that allowed these cars to compete together, I don't think the Porsches would get a single win..... (other than through "retirements")

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 16-06-2000).][/quote]


So by that rationale Mike, objectivity is really a subjective creation, therefore meaning objectivity as a concept is invalid.

Jesus christ.

 

Don't tell me that you've crossed over?!?!?!?

Oh Err Missus..


Richard

 

Matt,
Ah, now you have seen the light . That is precisely what I am saying.... There is no such thing as objectivety, only varying degrees of unbiased subjectivety....
LOL

Richard,
Phew! They HAVEN'T told you.....
LOL
Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 16-06-2000).]

 

whoops

He just raised this "discussion" to a whole new plane. He's now calling upon religious aid.

Richard