OllyK

It is still legal for treason, and if, and I do say if, these people are found guilty of fighting for the Taleban etc against Allied troops then they should be found guilty of treason. IMO any UK citizen convicted of a terrorits act in the UK should be tried in a similar manner

marky1

Okay Puff I take on board what you are saying about racism. But again, you are assuming they are innocent (which of course you are entitled to do), but you like most of us know none of the evidence. Others have different views and could reasonable assume they are somewhat guilty. You can bash your head against the wall as much as you like, but as far as I'm concerned if they were in Afghanistan during a war, and found in al qaeda safe house, some of them have a little explaining to do.

Oh and I should mention I have friends who just fought these two wars for us, and unfortunately one of them was killed fighting to preserve OUR safety. In that respect any British national found "fighting" our forces in Afghanistan should be locked up for as long as it takes to figure out what they were up to.

Jsut my opinion of course so please don't bang your head too hard against the wall

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

wasnt this one found with an ak47 in his hands?

thats my last word on this.

jamo

Diesel

Puff, he was not 'innocent'; he was simply not yet guilty! He was training to be guilty – proof enough for us simple folk here it seems . We had no hand in the Geneva convention!!!

Good thing for the Yanks to be so gung ho too after the 9/11 tragedy, and still in the face of so many weak willed UK liberals. I’d rather be a lion than a lamb – even if it means stepping on some toes along the way. ‘They’ woke the lion after all so shouldn’t be bleating like a lamb. He was simply a prisoner of war. Geddit!?

Really he should be deported to a much poorer country with terrible sanitation and so be free of this awful infidel country and free to plot his revenge. He shouldn’t let the Yanks find out he’s plotting carnage on innocent civilians though, cos if they find out, you know what can happen, big boy…

andrewdelvard

Erm no, hanging is not legal for treason and has not been for a number of years now. The death penalty was abolished for treason in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.

gareth123

Exactly. I'd have preferred to see them striped of their UK citizenship and returned to where they chose to be - and were picked up from - Afghanistan. With two years worth of average Afghan wages as compensation for lost earnings, of course, plus whatever 'mental distress' settlements are common there. Let them stay in Afghanistan. I cannot believe anyone wants these people inside the UK.

AsifScoob

According to BBC News 24 today, this chap was found in a 'Taliban Jail'. What might that tell you?

Its a fair question what the hell were these guys doing there and I for one will wait to hear there explanations, then make my mind up.

Frankly I am surprised that the US released anyone at all, and now we see that loads of people have been released back to their countries of origin. Does anyone know what has happened to returned detainees from elsewhere?

I was honestly convinced that these guys would never see the light of day again, simply because that is the US way, lets face it they have guys STILL in prison simply for being members of the Black Panthers!!

In my mind it speaks volumes that these guys have been released. If this guy says that he was part of Al Qaeda or the Taliban and the US drained him of every bit of info that he had for two years, then I say tough luck mate.

What I really cant get out of my head right now, is that if they REALLY had something on him, they would NEVER have let him go.

Asif

AsifScoob

Hi B20,

Thats fair enough mate. But what did they really do that the US thought better to let their own home authorities deal with them? Either they are completely innocent or the US want their 'friends' to share the burden of prosecuting these guys.

I think these guys will be questioned for a bit and then released, cant see any other reason for the US to let them go.

Back on topic however I think we need to hear what this guy says he was doing over there in the first place and what his story is before we make up our minds. Bear in mind he HAS been released without charge or questioning.

Uncle Buck you've answered both your question and mine I feel in your last but one paragraph and I think we should wait and see what comes out of his story before passing such dramatic judgements.

Asif

NotoriousREV

Hmm, is it PC mentality or uninformed mobbery that's ruining the country? A little from column a, a little from column b, IMHO.

None of us know the story except what the press have drip fed us. At least one of them claims to have been working as a teacher for a charity. Maybe he was (unlike most people, there are individuals who devote themselves to this kind of work in war zones) maybe he wasn't.

I personally don't think the US would have released them if they were even remote guilty of anything, after all, Richard Reid was a British citizen.

Half-cocked, uninformed ranting at it's best guys, keep up the good work

unclebuck

But we've always had tabloid uninformed mobbery - it never did much *actual* harm. PC mentality however has only been with us as long as New Labour has been in power. It's effect is to paralyse any debate on subjects that the protagonists deem unworthy of their agenda, and has the effect of stifling free speech. Any, and all descenters are branded 'racist', 'sexist', 'fattist' or whatever slogan is most convenient to bully people into silence.

The damage to our society is now palpable and visible to anybody who cares to take a look. I hope it's a fashion, but I'm not hopeful as long as the present government is in charge.

UB

Brit_in_Japan

I have to stick up for Puff and the other reasonable voices on this thread. You cannot damn someone as a fundamentalist Taliban fanatic with the blood of British soldiers on their hands IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS. And none of us know what the evidence is. All we know is that they were picked up somewhere in Afghanistan or maybe Pakistan. By all means ask the question why there were there, it is a reasonable question, but if there is evidence, let it be presented in court. If they are subsequently convicted then justice has been done (and been seen to be done) and they deserve all they get. If there is no evidence, you have to let them go.

This has been the principle of justice in this country, innocent until proven guilty. I find it very very worrying that people are seeing this as some form of Politically Correct fashion. It is nothing of the sort. It is one of the core principles which has served this country well for centuries.

They have now released 4 of the 5 people who were returned to the UK, presumably because they didn't have any evidence or sufficient evidence to convict them of anything (a resonable assumption as I'm sure if they thought they could convict them for ANYTHING they would have prosecuted them). They have kept some British Citizens in Guantanemo Bay. Presumably they are considered more dangerous people, and have EVIDENCE that they were actively fighting. I keep saying presume because I don't know the real facts, which I suggest is the same as everyone else here. If people on here do have hard facts about the actions of these men which would be accepted in a court of law, please let the British and American governments know !

Scoob99

iTrader: (1)

No worries there then, Max Clifford this morning was on TV saying the guys were in talks about making a programme or a film of it so either way they are gonna come out of it smelling of roses

Brendan Hughes

What an interesting thread.

I can't wait for the next scoobynet "I got a ticket for speeding - any good lawyers / does the 'don't know who's driving' defence still work?", or "I got a huge tax bill - anyone know how I can avoid paying it?"

Two years in a prison camp and they can't even find enough evidence to CHARGE the guy, let alone convict him. However, here on scoobynet, he deserves the death penalty by association.

Raving lefty rant over, there are interesting points on both sides, but I've got way too much work today to deal with them. One that leaves me wondering is, if he's a British citizen and lifted arms against British soldiers, does that mean he should be penalised MORE harshly than Afghans, who were (whether you like it or not) defending their country against invasion? [Though I know the UN didn't recognise it as "their" country].

Anyway, have a nice debate guys

Brendan

STi VII

Sun reader mentality strikes again!
Do people think that the US would release these so called combatants if there was a single particle of evidence to infer that they were actively involved in the Taliban or 911?
The US had them ideally placed to not have to process them ever, if they had been guilty of any crimes.
Would people be so quick to jump on them if they had English sounding names and their pictures had a white face? People have to ask themselves what it is about these people that is making them feel so outraged about them being freed after going through 2 Years of incarceration and interrogation at the Hands of the US?
I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that the US would make such a huge mistake. Would Bush really risk the up coming election if there was any prospect of these people having done wrong by releasing them at this time?

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

so why are they not walking the streets of britain as free men then? they have been released so that they can be dealt with by their own country.

P.s. I dont ever recall buying a copy of the sun, ive often took a good look at page 3 though.

jamo

unclebuck

Another favorite slogan of the Politically Correct.

UB

AsifScoob

B20

You're right mate, lets wait and see. Although I can say that back during the Balkan wars a friend of mine and some of his friends went to Bosnia, etc as aid workers. As far as I can tell they went off their own backs and with idealistic intentions.

I thought they were mad and almost told them so, you would not catch me within a million miles of somewhere like that (but I am in admiration of them for going to help others) From what I can gather they had a rather hairy time of it.

Uncle Buck, if this was a thread about political correctness, I would accuse you of trying to create some sort of inverse political correctness, in the same way as we have inverse snobbery.

You seem happy to slate the 'PC brigade', but dont like being slated yourself.

Back on topic though and it seems more likely that these guys were completely innocent and the US is trying to hush over their complete ***** up over this - surprise surprise? This is in complete odds with your first post where you seem to feel that we are all going to die. Please explain.

Asif

unclebuck

Where's your evidence for that then? I enjoy a reasoned debate. Don't like slogans though, and if anyone gets 'personal' (not that they have on this thread AFAIK) then they are just demeaning themselves IMO.

UB

Luan Pra bang

Its interesting that some people are so stupid that they can decide someone is guilty of a crime based on the fact that they were arrested. that philosophy has been behind some of the worst injustices in history and was the theory behind pol pots torture facilities and murder camps. It is also as far as my limited legal knowledge can make out libellous and defamatory but as long as its not a scoobynet advertiser that's OK then. Unclebuck everyone is entitled to an opinion even some of the worlds most stupid people. My opinion is that if a bullet were to go straight through the back of your head and by a miracle find the tiny brain that process your amoeba like thought processes then it would only be a good thing for the world.

Leslie

One of the basic tenets of our society in this country is that a man is innocent until proved guilty. There seems to be a lot of people making assumptions without any positive proof whatsoever. If the man is charged and then found guilty, then you have a right to say what you like about him. You would all be complaining bitterly enough if you were in the same position. The fact that he was in Afghanistan does not constitute proof by itself. This is not a PC view, just basic justice.

PTMW is quite right in what he said.

Les

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

They've all been released without charge

ajm

Maybe it doesn't prove that they have comitted a crime, but the information we do know is enough to prove that they have beliefs strong enough to lead them to an extremist hotspot against which the Western world was in the middle of waging an anti terrorist campaign. That is enough to make them a considerable risk to security, a risk relatively speaking of orders higher than you or me!

AsifScoob

Luan Pra Bang,

Thats a bit strong friend, lets keep this on an even keel as much as possible. I take your initial point and agree with it, but lets not let the thread get locked.

Uncle Buck, if you are still alive and have your helmet on, I believe that slating is slating, just that, whether through use of slogans, cliches, sarcasm, mickey taking whatever.

If you are making a joke thats one thing, which all the above apply to as well. However, if you are slating someone, or their opinions, well that is just that. I believe that this would constitute 'telling it like it is' therefore something you would be in favour of?

Asif

dba

One of the basic tenets of our society in this country is that a man is innocent until proved guilty

quite true,but ending up wandering around a war zone in Afghanistan is hardly the same as going to the Spar for a pint of milk

afaiac,they are guilty of something until they offer reasonable explanations,and being released without charge is no defence,

unclebuck

Asif - agreed. Of course I'm in favour of being able to 'tell it like it is' that is the essence of free speech. Whether people agree or disagree.

Luan Pra Bang - wishing someone dead because you can't handle their point of view is a bit extreme. Especially for a tree hugger like yourself. Par for the course for the politically correct 'thought police' though.

UB

Luan Pra bang

Its not really about thought police more about the ability to think how can you accuse this man of being a Taliban footsoldier without any evidence whatsoever other than him being arrested by the USA. Having undergone two years of torture I think if they could they would have got him on something by now. The other thing you have to realize is that it is completely possible to be part of the Taliban and not a terrorist.

AsifScoob

Uncle Buck,

We agree on something, good.

To tell it like it is and back on topic of course, I believe that you are completely wrong in the assertions in your first post and that the evidence to the contrary is now even more clear.

Whilst I agree that to be anywhere near a warzone (when you dont have to be) is very odd and also as I have said on this thread that I will await to hear what they have to say about it, with interest.

If the US had the slightest shred of anything on these guys, do you thnk that they would have let them go? The Headline "Bush releases terrorists after two years, on the eve of an election" do you honestly think this could possibly happen?

What they really want to avoind is the headline "Bush continues to imprison innocent men, with no charge, and the whole mess blows up in his face, on the eve of an election"

Please would you explain the views on your initial post, as they do appear to be completely wrong, IMO.

Just to add, that if the US has any proof, of what any of their prisoners have done, then lets put it all in court, let them be tried and punished accordingly, this is our way of doing things, that we should stick to.

Asif