Luan Pra bang

Do you really believe that UB ?

unclebuck

I agree that the evidence is circumstantial, but it’s pretty compelling from my point of view. As I said before, these people weren’t just randomly selected by the US soldiers, there must have been reasons behind their capture.

Now your doing what you’ve accused me of doing. How do you know they have been tortured for two years? Incarceration in itself isn’t torture. That’s just emotive language.

Well, clearly you didn’t see the documentary reports of what these guys got up to when they were in power. They brutalised and terrorised an entire population over a period of years, and sent a country and it’s culture back to the stone age.

And now they’re back here. In our midst, and about to gain celebrity status. It’s a mess, and no good will come of it.

UB

Luan Pra bang

I would say using stress positions sleep deprivation and white noise counts as torture and the Americans have hardly denied that that is what they were doing ?

The fact is most of them were no threat to the UK and the truth is a long a bloody war with russia sent them back to the stone age not the taliban. The fact is the USA were happy to deal with the Taliban and invite them to do business when they thaught they would let an oil pipeline be built accross Afgabistan butno oil pipeline so they had to invade them so they could build it. (they are building it now btw)

dba

The fact is most of them were no threat to the UK

sorry,but how do you know that? its certainly not a fact,its at best a possibility,and one of them was caught with a weapon i believe,

Luan Pra bang

No I am not saying that at all Afganistan was a relatively advanced country untll the russians destroyed it and enabled tribal war lords to take over and run the country based on opression but the fact children born into constant violence don't know any better and are guaranteed to be violent adults . With out the russians the taliban would not exist.

Tell me how the **** a man in Afganistan with an AK 47 is a threat to the UK thats some seriously long range bullets.
Nothing wrong with a bit of drug cultivation the taliban did stop producing heroin but all it did was raise prices and made them a **** load of money.
If a country wants to make a bit of cash growing crops why shouldn't they ?

andrew6321

B20 - get yer facts right mate. Heroin production in Afghanistan is now nine times higher than it was under the Taliban. How's that for progress?

dba

Tell me how the **** a man in Afganistan with an AK 47 is a threat to the UK thats some seriously long range bullets

because he is aiming the frigging thing at a British soldier!!!

moses

uncle buck its sad u dont have a clue, these guys in guatanamo were in afghanistan long time before the war, they believed they were fighting against the evil tajik and uzbek armies who these young lads believed were rapists and butchers and traitors, they had nothing to do with the war, thats why they have been realesed, same as the young lad in the usa john lindh, he wasnt an al qaeda, he was in afghanistan studying and then went into the armies to fight against the opposition and he never oppressed woman or treated humans as scumbags.

get your facts right first , their is an australian david his name is i think, he was their fighting in bosnia against the serbs long time ago and he wasnt a mercenary he believed he had to defend innocent people and then he went to afghanistan to take on the the tajiks and the rest of their cronies, he was their too before the war but the poor chap is still stuck in guatanamo

Luan Pra bang

so why don't the british soldiers **** off back to britan then ? They are in his country pointing a gun at him wanting to take over his country. And to be honest the Americans were more of a threat to British soldiers than any of the taliban.

moses

i agree luan, the british soldier was aiming a gun at him did u want these guys uncle buck to just stand their and take it

like i said, they were their long time before the british soldiers were their and by the way these paki's blacks and arabs were british too so their back home either u get used to it or shut the hellp up uncle, i bet if they were white christians u wouldnt have complained

Geezer

Incorrect, the Afghanistan invited the Soviets to come to their aid, they were not invaded. After the Soviets left, the vacuum left was filled by the war lords, and the Taliban eventually put a stop to that. (Theonly good thing they ever did).

The international community is more to blame for the Taliban than the Sovites, as help was requested after their withdrawal, but none was offered. They were hung out to dry, and oh have we paid for that!

Geezer

unclebuck

err... wrong again. He is a *British* citizen. That's the whole point of this thread and the issue we were discussing.

UB

Anyway, I'm off. *some of us* have to work for a living.

andrew6321

B20 - that's not correct either. The Taliban had practically eradicated Heroin production in Afghanistan before the US invaded. Under US control, production is now back to pre-Taliban levels. The Talib may have been a lot of things, but drug runners they definitely were not.

Diesel

Very well balanced posts Asif - shame that a few on SN cant quite express similarly opossing views quite so intelligently...

moses

geezer is right luan, some of the commie afghans invited russians and the russians decided to stay and take over, the muslim population never wanted them their, america helped them but the commies and dostums people loved russians and they knew russians would help them hoard the wealth and power

taliban is a usa and british, pakistani joint creation

andrew6321

exactly - if the taliban hadn't existed, you would have had to invent them...

Mullah Omar still on the loose, is he??? Funny that....

andrew6321

B20 - mate, its not enough to simply disagree. Tell me why, and try to prove I'm wrong. And then I'll prove I'm right.

you first.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Memory is getting hazy but as I remember it (& it was before some of you were even born ffs!!) back in 1979 on the "pretext" of helping the Soviet backed puppet government, the Russians INVADED Afghanistan. The Russian motive was purely an attempt to conquer the country and subjugate its population, both as a back-door security measure and as step in furthering the Soviet cause. Afghanistan may be a dodgy looking prospect from here, but it holds major strategic importance. The Russians would be 1 step closer to the Indian Ocean and a possible warm water port and the Middle-East oil termini, plus they would be able to "exert" their influence a bit more over Pakistan, Iran and India.

This invasion prompted the US amongst other countries to boycott the Moscow Olympics of 1980 and then proceeded to get the CIA to covertly supply arms & cash to the Mujahedin in an attempt to get the Russians out.

After they left (tail, legs) there was civil war for many years until the Taliban came together & conquered a lot of the country. At first they were treated as saviours, but their extreme religious oppression and torture/killing of their "people" soon turned people's minds. There was still a civil war going on in the north of the country - the "Northern Alliance" when the US invaded.

Luan Pra bang

The Taliban were massive drug dealers then the USA convinced them that the oil pipeline deal might happen if the drug production was stopped. It was and the Taliban made a fortune selling off hoarded stores of heroin while the peasant farmers suffered. Now there is no Taliban the production of drugs has gone back up. The country might as well make the most amount of money it can since they don't have oil why not sell drugs to the richer nations to help redistribute the worlds wealth.

Geezer

Puff,
Alas I am old ebought to remember it all too well

The coomunist govt of the time was fighting a losing war against the war lords that the Taliban disposed of, and asked Moscow for assistance.

Now I'm not saying that the Soviets didn't take advantage of the situation, but they didn't invade.

Geezer

Brendan Hughes

For the record, the Taliban were major dealers in opium up to about 1999 I think it was. They then received an incentive (I believe from the UN) to stop production, and almost eradicated it within a very short time, a remarkable achievement that no-one else has done. Since their overthrow, lack of centralised control and the need for money means that production has shot up again.

As the US and UN wanted to stop production, and the US and the UN wanted to overthrow the Taliban, there are some red faces in that department.

Can't be arsed to find the references. I work in related fields.

andrew6321

Luan
the gas pipeline deal was specifically vetoed by the Taliban and did not get approval while they were in power. It could be argued that was one of the reasons why the Taliban were ejected.

B20
no rush....

meanwhile, here's some further reading: http://opioids.com/afghanistan/prediction.html

Luan Pra bang

Not sure where that comes from as far as I knew the US government stopped the deal
and it pissed the Taliban off alot ?

AsifScoob

Diesel,

Most kind. Thank you.

Shame Uncle Buck has gone away, albeit he has got a job to do, I would like to discuss his initial post a bit more.

The debate is going well though, not too much slanging and CWE seems a more appropriate place for this, with the usual suspects contributing, but who all seem to know each other.

PTMW, a blast from the past with some of the history there. I seem to recall Alan Wells winning Olympic gold in the 100m in 1980. Who says the Russian invasion of Afghanistan was a bad thing??

Best thing is to get everyone in the pub for a few beers, or whatever takes your fancy, and lets thrash it out. I'm sure it would be an amusing debate. Mine's a Stella! LOL!

Edited, as my comments about the Taliban drug dealing are complete nonsense, given some of the more recent posts!

Its definately a messed up area, with all sorts of people to blame, if you want to.

Back on topic, if these guys had joined the Taliban before September 11th, they would have had no idea what was going to be happening, either to them, the regime, or the country. We know that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda latched themselves onto the Taliban, in order to find a home. How much of that relationship and what was going to happen would these guys have known?

If they joined the Taliban/Al Q AFTER September 11th of course and deliberately made their way to Afghanistan to fight US/British troops and then I say to hell with them. But I reckon the US would have sussed that out over the last couple of years, wouldn't they? And assuming that is the case, if I was one of them I would have felt safer in a US jail then coming back to the UK, to walk the streets.

Anyway...

Asif