The Spanish have capitulated to terrorism
16 March 2004, 11:46 AM
#31
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Butty,
Do you really believe that NL is a socialist organisation?
I would imagine that the new Spanish government is taking part in some political posturing in an effort to maximise any advantage they can seize from the situation. Just the same sort of thing that any politician worth his salt will do these days whether he believes in it or not.
Les
Do you really believe that NL is a socialist organisation?
I would imagine that the new Spanish government is taking part in some political posturing in an effort to maximise any advantage they can seize from the situation. Just the same sort of thing that any politician worth his salt will do these days whether he believes in it or not.
Les
16 March 2004, 05:25 PM
#32
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The bombings were a well timed event for AQ. They obviously were aware of the political climate and pending elections so they focused their attentions there, with great effect.
The fact that Spain now denounces their own involvement in Iraq is pi55 poor. Do they think that they are looking after innocent people all over the world by now looking as if they are bowing to terroism. I think not
Should these scum of the earth try this when our elections are ready i think they'll get a shock as the Brits wont roll over like the cowardly main land europeans. I view all european countries as cowards its been proven time and time again. Lets not forget that the USA has pulled europe out the sh1te on many occasion. After all if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be a muslim, jew, hindu etc etc left in the world today.
Oh what short memories we have. I honestly dont give a **** that we invade countries over oil, the underlying reasons dont bother me. What bothers me is we have to justify killing complete w@nkers when they do it in the name of "*****"
The last time every ****** sat back 14,000,000 Jews were killed. Dont preach to me **** about some camel herder going on a personal crusade on the back of religion........just wipe the tw@t off thwe face of the earth.
If these ******* want to play dirty then we should play dirty. Whats Bin Ladens town of origin or where do all his relatives live, find out and carpet bomb the towns off the face of this planet.
B2Z, I've read this thread with interest and i totally agree with everything you have said. As you can see i too have a strong opinion on this and i'll be fcuked if innocent lives and the lives of our soldiers is something we should accept.
Spain you are a weak foolish country, you continually shirk your responsibilities as a european nation and i hope you can condone your actions to the poor relatives of the recent bombings
The fact that Spain now denounces their own involvement in Iraq is pi55 poor. Do they think that they are looking after innocent people all over the world by now looking as if they are bowing to terroism. I think not
Should these scum of the earth try this when our elections are ready i think they'll get a shock as the Brits wont roll over like the cowardly main land europeans. I view all european countries as cowards its been proven time and time again. Lets not forget that the USA has pulled europe out the sh1te on many occasion. After all if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be a muslim, jew, hindu etc etc left in the world today.
Oh what short memories we have. I honestly dont give a **** that we invade countries over oil, the underlying reasons dont bother me. What bothers me is we have to justify killing complete w@nkers when they do it in the name of "*****"
The last time every ****** sat back 14,000,000 Jews were killed. Dont preach to me **** about some camel herder going on a personal crusade on the back of religion........just wipe the tw@t off thwe face of the earth.
If these ******* want to play dirty then we should play dirty. Whats Bin Ladens town of origin or where do all his relatives live, find out and carpet bomb the towns off the face of this planet.
B2Z, I've read this thread with interest and i totally agree with everything you have said. As you can see i too have a strong opinion on this and i'll be fcuked if innocent lives and the lives of our soldiers is something we should accept.
Spain you are a weak foolish country, you continually shirk your responsibilities as a european nation and i hope you can condone your actions to the poor relatives of the recent bombings
16 March 2004, 06:37 PM
#34
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fair point about the forggeting buzzer, just another one 4 u all, Ejecting christian serbs from muslim albania, saving a couple of hundred thousand lives there. but it was pretty much the other way round a couple of years before. Still its a messed up place this world.
Maybe removing everybody from the disputred areas in israel and pallestine would work, probably not but religions come and go over a very very very long time.
Check out that new one raliens or something, You want to talk about messed up stuff they rekkon man was put here by aliens (explaining missing link) and they are comming back to enslave us, But the ones who belive get spared, Sounds a little fammiliar to me what do you reckon.
Ozzy dont your lot (unit) give a fair bit of an insight into the areas and people your going too, We do although it will never be a full understanding. It does however have a possitive influence on how we work in these places.
Sad thing is though you never will know all of the facts.
Still at least they are finally pulling us out of the balkans, all be it slowly.
At least that is a part of the world thats on the mend. Where to next Africa i reckon.
Any way thats my 10p worth now your all gonna have a brain fart.
Live life and enjoy it while youve got it. I dont want to get into any arguments but at least i feel a little better for helping a few people through out the world.
Maybe removing everybody from the disputred areas in israel and pallestine would work, probably not but religions come and go over a very very very long time.
Check out that new one raliens or something, You want to talk about messed up stuff they rekkon man was put here by aliens (explaining missing link) and they are comming back to enslave us, But the ones who belive get spared, Sounds a little fammiliar to me what do you reckon.
Ozzy dont your lot (unit) give a fair bit of an insight into the areas and people your going too, We do although it will never be a full understanding. It does however have a possitive influence on how we work in these places.
Sad thing is though you never will know all of the facts.
Still at least they are finally pulling us out of the balkans, all be it slowly.
At least that is a part of the world thats on the mend. Where to next Africa i reckon.
Any way thats my 10p worth now your all gonna have a brain fart.
Live life and enjoy it while youve got it. I dont want to get into any arguments but at least i feel a little better for helping a few people through out the world.
16 March 2004, 07:08 PM
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Check out that new one raliens or something, You want to talk about messed up stuff they rekkon man was put here by aliens (explaining missing link) and they are comming back to enslave us,
16 March 2004, 08:02 PM
#37
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wrxtanki,
Yeah m8, they do. You can't really give a full clear picture about your enemy (well, I mean in a compassionate way) if you're about to be asked to go in and possibly fight face-to-face. To be honest, I'd rather not know details if I'm going to have to stick a bayonet through some bloke.
It's good to know why your're being sent to a country and what you're being asked to do, but I feel there needs to be some distance when it involves actual combat. If it's a peace-keeping role, then it's vital to have the full picture and both sides of the arguments. At least then you have some balance and can see them simlpy as another human being.
Stefan
Yeah m8, they do. You can't really give a full clear picture about your enemy (well, I mean in a compassionate way) if you're about to be asked to go in and possibly fight face-to-face. To be honest, I'd rather not know details if I'm going to have to stick a bayonet through some bloke.
It's good to know why your're being sent to a country and what you're being asked to do, but I feel there needs to be some distance when it involves actual combat. If it's a peace-keeping role, then it's vital to have the full picture and both sides of the arguments. At least then you have some balance and can see them simlpy as another human being.
Stefan
16 March 2004, 09:18 PM
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The fact that Spain now denounces their own involvement in Iraq is pi55 poor
16 March 2004, 10:31 PM
#39
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Jye
I dont give a **** what the Spanish "people" said long ago. In mine and the rest of the worlds eyes Spain is the government that speaks for the country (y'know that democracy stuff) and hence Spain has done a complete about face and left its moral obligation to the rest of the "free speaking" world and politically dumped us.
To the regular person who will take the current events in Spain at face value will say that Spain **** itself and capitulated. This now sends a clear message to AQ that they may again achieve a similar victory elswhere. I believe the next country that has elections to be held will suffer a similar fate to that of Spain.
Spain has a moral contribution to up hold (after all a few dozen soldiers isnt going to make a blind bit of military difference). Spain's new government has manipulated its manifesto to suite the publics un-ease, AQ have picked up on this and decided to "Help" the voting process by shocking them into the weasels way out.
You democratically vote for your government and as such you should back them on the worlds stage presenting a united front. I hated Maggie Thatcher but during the Falklands i still supported her and the cabinets decisions coz they were put there by the people, for the people.
I dont give a **** what the Spanish "people" said long ago. In mine and the rest of the worlds eyes Spain is the government that speaks for the country (y'know that democracy stuff) and hence Spain has done a complete about face and left its moral obligation to the rest of the "free speaking" world and politically dumped us.
To the regular person who will take the current events in Spain at face value will say that Spain **** itself and capitulated. This now sends a clear message to AQ that they may again achieve a similar victory elswhere. I believe the next country that has elections to be held will suffer a similar fate to that of Spain.
Spain has a moral contribution to up hold (after all a few dozen soldiers isnt going to make a blind bit of military difference). Spain's new government has manipulated its manifesto to suite the publics un-ease, AQ have picked up on this and decided to "Help" the voting process by shocking them into the weasels way out.
You democratically vote for your government and as such you should back them on the worlds stage presenting a united front. I hated Maggie Thatcher but during the Falklands i still supported her and the cabinets decisions coz they were put there by the people, for the people.
17 March 2004, 12:39 AM
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well said buzzer
this sends out a very wrong message to the terrorists
could be potentially catastrophic to the rest of us because of Spains U-turn
would have got shot during WW2
case dismissed...NEXT!!!!!!!
this sends out a very wrong message to the terrorists
could be potentially catastrophic to the rest of us because of Spains U-turn
would have got shot during WW2
case dismissed...NEXT!!!!!!!
17 March 2004, 02:44 AM
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Many nations were happy to see Saddam taken out, but not happy that it was achieved as a result of action taken by a few countries without the backing of the UN Security Council. So it was seen as an illegal war by many countries. A deteriorating security situation and no good exit strategy, no wonder it's a popular decision with the Spainish voters to get their troops home.
It's difficult to see how al Qaeda will take this as anything other than a victory for them.
It's difficult to see how al Qaeda will take this as anything other than a victory for them.
17 March 2004, 08:55 AM
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Spain has done a complete about face and left its moral obligation to the rest of the "free speaking" world and politically dumped us.
any reasonable person now can't fail to question Blairs judgement,and the same will happen in Spain.
I am afraid aguing with a Spaniard about morals at the moment would have him/her choking on their Sangria
17 March 2004, 09:14 AM
#43
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dba it depends on why you think the war was started. If its because they were going to find weapons of mass destruction and show them to the world then thats wrong only in as much as that was not the sole purpose. It was a major contributing factor but with many others too. Too many people think that it was soley about he has x number type y's and we will show the world and destroy them. That was not the sole reason for the war.
First and foremost Saddam had previously owned and used weapons of mass destruction on his own population in the form of biological and chemical weapons on the marsh arabs and also in the war with Iran. He had the capabilites to make them, he had made them and he had used them. To me that is the biggest justifiable reason for the invasion of Iraq. Just because none were found doesn't mean they never existed, they did. They could have been destroyed just before the war to hide the fact he had them or could still be hidden in the dessert for all anyone knows.
He had terrorist training camps in the North of his country which he knew about and didnt close down so was allowing them to be there. When you combine the fact he has terrorists in his country that are welcome and the fact he has manufactured and used weapons of mass destruction then to me thats good enough reason on its own to go in and take him out of power and sort the country out to make sure the possibility of production and supply of those weapons is not feasable.
I fully supported the Iraq war on that basis alone. The issues of oil and establishing a strong hold in the area are secondary and ones that I agree do need to be resolved. However Saddam had to go and the threat of him dealing with terrorists needed to be eliminated.
First and foremost Saddam had previously owned and used weapons of mass destruction on his own population in the form of biological and chemical weapons on the marsh arabs and also in the war with Iran. He had the capabilites to make them, he had made them and he had used them. To me that is the biggest justifiable reason for the invasion of Iraq. Just because none were found doesn't mean they never existed, they did. They could have been destroyed just before the war to hide the fact he had them or could still be hidden in the dessert for all anyone knows.
He had terrorist training camps in the North of his country which he knew about and didnt close down so was allowing them to be there. When you combine the fact he has terrorists in his country that are welcome and the fact he has manufactured and used weapons of mass destruction then to me thats good enough reason on its own to go in and take him out of power and sort the country out to make sure the possibility of production and supply of those weapons is not feasable.
I fully supported the Iraq war on that basis alone. The issues of oil and establishing a strong hold in the area are secondary and ones that I agree do need to be resolved. However Saddam had to go and the threat of him dealing with terrorists needed to be eliminated.
Last edited by Bravo2zero_sps; 17 March 2004 at 09:15 AM.
17 March 2004, 10:10 AM
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did u know i was watching the news yesterday and it was revealed that the spanish goverment knew it was not eta but wanted to blame them so they wont face a defeat when it came to the elections and if they had revealed it was al qaeda they knew the people would blame the government for their support for bush
people are sick indeed
people are sick indeed
17 March 2004, 10:42 AM
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Whilst I can't say I'm happy about Spain's decision, I'm not going to start calling them "cowards". Their troops have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with "our boys", they deserve our respect for that, and our thanks for their assistance while it was there. Terrorism wasn't invented on September 11th like so many seem to believe, and Spain (like the UK) has been fighting their own "war on terrorism" for decades. The Spaniards are not weak-willed cowards ready to roll over at the first sign of trouble.
Given that the socialists have made no secret of their intentions to withdraw troops should they get elected, and that the previous government's decision to send troops was against the wishes of the Spanish people, I don't think the bomb attacks were the whole catalyst for the change of government. That the Spanish people acted in fear is one way to look at it. Another is that this is a damning vote of no confidence in our actions towards Iraq, from a democracy of 35 million people.
I'm also dismayed to see people saying things like "future attacks will be Spain's fault because terrorists now think they can win". That we'd suffer terrorist attacks was been nailed on before we even took a step into Iraq, and it's something we'll have to live with every day, but particularly around any significant event (such as elections). Sure AQ will pass off the election result as a victory, but does anyone really believe if it'd gone the other way we'd be any safer? These are terrorists - chaos is their primary aim. Anything else, like affecting an election result or the absolute destruction of the Twin Towers, is just gravy to them.
Those shouting "You don't negotiate with terrorists!" should look at what the UK had to do in Northern Ireland to make any progress towards peace. It took us decades to realise that we can't fight terrorists with armies, so assuming we're now safer because of what has been done in Iraq is nonsense. Whilst on that subject, anyone on the other side of the pond could also examine their government's attitude to NORAID prior to September 11th.
If it makes any difference, I'm no hippy peacenik
. I'm one of the people who considered going to Iraq was a good thing, but done on a flawed premise. I now consder my government's failure to accept responsibility for the mistakes made (and I don't mean blaming the intelligence services) is a disgrace, and that our relationship with other countries is seemingly now entirely a matter of whether they're "for us" or "agin us" one of terrorisms greatest victories.
Deano
Given that the socialists have made no secret of their intentions to withdraw troops should they get elected, and that the previous government's decision to send troops was against the wishes of the Spanish people, I don't think the bomb attacks were the whole catalyst for the change of government. That the Spanish people acted in fear is one way to look at it. Another is that this is a damning vote of no confidence in our actions towards Iraq, from a democracy of 35 million people.
I'm also dismayed to see people saying things like "future attacks will be Spain's fault because terrorists now think they can win". That we'd suffer terrorist attacks was been nailed on before we even took a step into Iraq, and it's something we'll have to live with every day, but particularly around any significant event (such as elections). Sure AQ will pass off the election result as a victory, but does anyone really believe if it'd gone the other way we'd be any safer? These are terrorists - chaos is their primary aim. Anything else, like affecting an election result or the absolute destruction of the Twin Towers, is just gravy to them.
Those shouting "You don't negotiate with terrorists!" should look at what the UK had to do in Northern Ireland to make any progress towards peace. It took us decades to realise that we can't fight terrorists with armies, so assuming we're now safer because of what has been done in Iraq is nonsense. Whilst on that subject, anyone on the other side of the pond could also examine their government's attitude to NORAID prior to September 11th.
If it makes any difference, I'm no hippy peacenik
. I'm one of the people who considered going to Iraq was a good thing, but done on a flawed premise. I now consder my government's failure to accept responsibility for the mistakes made (and I don't mean blaming the intelligence services) is a disgrace, and that our relationship with other countries is seemingly now entirely a matter of whether they're "for us" or "agin us" one of terrorisms greatest victories.Deano
17 March 2004, 11:14 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by **************
Deano, one big problem there, Sinn Fein were willing to go to the negotiating table to 'discuss' options. Whether productive or not.
You really think Al Qaeda or any extremist group is willing to negotiate? I certainly don't.
You really think Al Qaeda or any extremist group is willing to negotiate? I certainly don't.
However, if by capitulating to AQ, Spain could (that's a big "if") secure the safety of it's people, and free itself from the danger of further attacks, that would seem to be a very effective, if distasteful form of "negotiation". My heart says it's weak, but my head tells me it's purely logic.
My main point though is purely that the blanket statement "you don't deal with terrorists" being banded about is hypocritical.
Also, and this is purely my opinion, situations like Northern Ireland and Palestine tell me it's unlikely that military force will have any appreciable affect on stemming acts of terror. That makes me believe it's also a short sighted and dangerous standpoint to take. Not a very palatable fact, but no less true for that, in my eyes anyway.
Deano
17 March 2004, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Buzzer
Jye
I dont give a **** what the Spanish "people" said long ago. In mine and the rest of the worlds eyes Spain is the government that speaks for the country (y'know that democracy stuff) and hence Spain has done a complete about face and left its moral obligation to the rest of the "free speaking" world and politically dumped us.
I dont give a **** what the Spanish "people" said long ago. In mine and the rest of the worlds eyes Spain is the government that speaks for the country (y'know that democracy stuff) and hence Spain has done a complete about face and left its moral obligation to the rest of the "free speaking" world and politically dumped us.
Do you actually think the UK would have went to war without the US? No, because we are just a bit player now, a small nation with an even smaller armed force who we cant even equip properly. Makes me think of the snide wee arseholes at school who were always sucking up to the hard men to keep them from getting a kicking. The UK has had its day as a world player, now all we are is a nation of shopkeepers, call centres and service industries. A small fish in a big pond.
I've heard comments like these made many a time, especially before the war when certain people were saying stuff like oh WOMD, scary, lets go for it. Wasnt long before they were eating their words. So why we were even in Iraq in the first place? Oh to get rid of a dictator was it? Well there are plenty of bigger threats to world peace and certainly plenty of other dictators to choose from, its just that we in the west seem to ignore when it suits us and our pockets or heaven forbid that they actually have real WOMD.
17 March 2004, 11:55 AM
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bravo mate have a read at this carefully i searched it just for u, the one i was looking for i couldnt find
---------------DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- The Arab television news network al Jazeera broadcast a speech from Osama bin Laden Sunday after the United States and Britain launched their attack on Afghanistan. It is unclear when the videotaped statement was recorded, but it does refer to the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The following is a transcript of the translated statement:
Thanks to God, he who God guides will never lose. And I believe that there's only one God. And I declare I believe there's no prophet but Mohammed.
This is America, God has sent one of the attacks by God and has attacked one of its best buildings. And this is America filled with fear from the north to south and east to west, thank God.
And what America is facing today is something very little of what we have tasted for decades. Our nation, since nearly 80 years is tasting this humility. Sons are killed, and nobody answers the call.
CNN.COM SPECIAL REPORT
CNN NewsPass Video
Agencies reportedly got hijack tips in 1998
MORE STORIES
Intelligence intercept led to Buffalo suspects
Report cites warnings before 9/11
EXTRA INFORMATION
Timeline: Who Knew What and When?
Interactive: Terror Investigation
Terror Warnings System
Most wanted terrorists
What looks suspicious?
In-Depth: America Remembers
In-Depth: Terror on Tape
In-Depth: How prepared is your city?
RESOURCES
On the Scene: Barbara Starr: Al Qaeda hunt expands?
On the Scene: Peter Bergen: Getting al Qaeda to talk
And when God has guided a bunch of Muslims to be at the forefront and destroyed America, a big destruction, I wish God would lift their position.
And when those people have defended and retaliated to what their brothers and sisters have suffered in Palestine and Lebanon, the whole world has been shouting.
And there are civilians, innocent children being killed every day in Iraq without any guilt, and we never hear anybody. We never hear any fatwah from the clergymen of the government.
And every day we see the Israeli tanks going to Jenin, Ramallah, Beit Jalla and other lands of Islam. And, no, we never hear anybody objecting to that.
So when the swords came after eight years to America, then the whole world has been crying for those criminals who attacked. This is the least which could be said about them. They are people. They supported the murder against the victim, so God has given them back what they deserve.
I say the matter is very clear, so every Muslim after this, and after the officials in America, starting with the head of the infidels, Bush. And they came out with their men and equipment and they even encouraged even countries claiming to be Muslims against us.
So, we run with our religion. They came out to fight Islam with the name of fighting terrorism.
People -- event of the world -- in Japan, hundreds of thousands of people got killed. This is not a war crime. Or in Iraq, what our -- who are being killed in Iraq. This is not a crime. And those, when they were attacked in my Nairobi, and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan, and Sudan were attacked.
I say these events have split the whole world into two camps: the camp of belief and the disbelief. So every Muslim shall take -- shall support his religion.
And now with the winds of change has blown up now, has come to the Arabian Peninsula.
And to America, I say to it and to its people this: I swear by God the Great, America will never dream nor those who live in America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our land and in Palestine.
---------------------------
it could have all changed, if usa ever listened
---------------DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- The Arab television news network al Jazeera broadcast a speech from Osama bin Laden Sunday after the United States and Britain launched their attack on Afghanistan. It is unclear when the videotaped statement was recorded, but it does refer to the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The following is a transcript of the translated statement:
Thanks to God, he who God guides will never lose. And I believe that there's only one God. And I declare I believe there's no prophet but Mohammed.
This is America, God has sent one of the attacks by God and has attacked one of its best buildings. And this is America filled with fear from the north to south and east to west, thank God.
And what America is facing today is something very little of what we have tasted for decades. Our nation, since nearly 80 years is tasting this humility. Sons are killed, and nobody answers the call.
CNN.COM SPECIAL REPORT
CNN NewsPass Video
Agencies reportedly got hijack tips in 1998
MORE STORIES
Intelligence intercept led to Buffalo suspects
Report cites warnings before 9/11
EXTRA INFORMATION
Timeline: Who Knew What and When?
Interactive: Terror Investigation
Terror Warnings System
Most wanted terrorists
What looks suspicious?
In-Depth: America Remembers
In-Depth: Terror on Tape
In-Depth: How prepared is your city?
RESOURCES
On the Scene: Barbara Starr: Al Qaeda hunt expands?
On the Scene: Peter Bergen: Getting al Qaeda to talk
And when God has guided a bunch of Muslims to be at the forefront and destroyed America, a big destruction, I wish God would lift their position.
And when those people have defended and retaliated to what their brothers and sisters have suffered in Palestine and Lebanon, the whole world has been shouting.
And there are civilians, innocent children being killed every day in Iraq without any guilt, and we never hear anybody. We never hear any fatwah from the clergymen of the government.
And every day we see the Israeli tanks going to Jenin, Ramallah, Beit Jalla and other lands of Islam. And, no, we never hear anybody objecting to that.
So when the swords came after eight years to America, then the whole world has been crying for those criminals who attacked. This is the least which could be said about them. They are people. They supported the murder against the victim, so God has given them back what they deserve.
I say the matter is very clear, so every Muslim after this, and after the officials in America, starting with the head of the infidels, Bush. And they came out with their men and equipment and they even encouraged even countries claiming to be Muslims against us.
So, we run with our religion. They came out to fight Islam with the name of fighting terrorism.
People -- event of the world -- in Japan, hundreds of thousands of people got killed. This is not a war crime. Or in Iraq, what our -- who are being killed in Iraq. This is not a crime. And those, when they were attacked in my Nairobi, and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan, and Sudan were attacked.
I say these events have split the whole world into two camps: the camp of belief and the disbelief. So every Muslim shall take -- shall support his religion.
And now with the winds of change has blown up now, has come to the Arabian Peninsula.
And to America, I say to it and to its people this: I swear by God the Great, America will never dream nor those who live in America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our land and in Palestine.
---------------------------
it could have all changed, if usa ever listened
17 March 2004, 12:04 PM
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this is the sickness and their has to be a cure, everything normally does bravo
--------------Bin Laden's warning: full text
Message first broadcast on Arabic station Al Jazeera
Osama Bin Laden has issued a strongly-worded warning to the United States in a recorded statement broadcast on al-Jazeera television. Below is the full text of his statement.
Praise be to God and we beseech Him for help and forgiveness.
We seek refuge with the Lord of our bad and evildoing. He whom God guides is rightly guided but he whom God leaves to stray, for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the right way.
I witness that there is no God but God and Mohammed is His slave and Prophet.
What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years
God Almighty hit the United States at its most vulnerable spot. He destroyed its greatest buildings.
Praise be to God.
Here is the United States. It was filled with terror from its north to its south and from its east to its west.
Praise be to God.
What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years.
Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than 80 years.
Its sons are being killed, its blood is being shed, its holy places are being attacked, and it is not being ruled according to what God has decreed.
Despite this, nobody cares.
When Almighty God rendered successful a convoy of Muslims, the vanguards of Islam, He allowed them to destroy the United States.
But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims
I ask God Almighty to elevate their status and grant them Paradise. He is the one who is capable to do so.
When these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.
One million Iraqi children have thus far died in Iraq although they did not do anything wrong.
Despite this, we heard no denunciation by anyone in the world or a fatwa by the rulers' ulema [body of Muslim scholars].
Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles also enter to wreak havoc in Palestine, in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala, and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.
They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.
May God mete them the punishment they deserve
But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims.
The least that one can describe these people is that they are morally depraved.
They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.
May God mete them the punishment they deserve.
I say that the matter is clear and explicit.
In the aftermath of this event and now that senior US officials have spoken, beginning with Bush, the head of the world's infidels, and whoever supports him, every Muslim should rush to defend his religion.
They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism
They came out in arrogance with their men and horses and instigated even those countries that belong to Islam against us.
They came out to fight this group of people who declared their faith in God and refused to abandon their religion.
They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism.
Hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, were killed in the farthest point on earth in Japan.
[For them] this is not a crime, but rather a debatable issue.
They bombed Iraq and considered that a debatable issue.
These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us
But when a dozen people of them were killed in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed and all hypocrite ones stood behind the head of the world's infidelity - behind the Hubal [an idol worshipped by pagans before the advent of Islam] of the age - namely, America and its supporters.
These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us.
neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed
The winds of faith and change have blown to remove falsehood from the [Arabian] peninsula of Prophet Mohammed, may God's prayers be upon him.
As for the United States, I tell it and its people these few words: I swear by Almighty God who raised the heavens without pillars that neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed, may God's peace and blessing be upon him.
God is great and glory to Islam.
May God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.
--------------Bin Laden's warning: full text
Message first broadcast on Arabic station Al Jazeera
Osama Bin Laden has issued a strongly-worded warning to the United States in a recorded statement broadcast on al-Jazeera television. Below is the full text of his statement.
Praise be to God and we beseech Him for help and forgiveness.
We seek refuge with the Lord of our bad and evildoing. He whom God guides is rightly guided but he whom God leaves to stray, for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the right way.
I witness that there is no God but God and Mohammed is His slave and Prophet.
What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years
God Almighty hit the United States at its most vulnerable spot. He destroyed its greatest buildings.
Praise be to God.
Here is the United States. It was filled with terror from its north to its south and from its east to its west.
Praise be to God.
What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years.
Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than 80 years.
Its sons are being killed, its blood is being shed, its holy places are being attacked, and it is not being ruled according to what God has decreed.
Despite this, nobody cares.
When Almighty God rendered successful a convoy of Muslims, the vanguards of Islam, He allowed them to destroy the United States.
But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims
I ask God Almighty to elevate their status and grant them Paradise. He is the one who is capable to do so.
When these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.
One million Iraqi children have thus far died in Iraq although they did not do anything wrong.
Despite this, we heard no denunciation by anyone in the world or a fatwa by the rulers' ulema [body of Muslim scholars].
Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles also enter to wreak havoc in Palestine, in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala, and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.
They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.
May God mete them the punishment they deserve
But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims.
The least that one can describe these people is that they are morally depraved.
They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.
May God mete them the punishment they deserve.
I say that the matter is clear and explicit.
In the aftermath of this event and now that senior US officials have spoken, beginning with Bush, the head of the world's infidels, and whoever supports him, every Muslim should rush to defend his religion.
They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism
They came out in arrogance with their men and horses and instigated even those countries that belong to Islam against us.
They came out to fight this group of people who declared their faith in God and refused to abandon their religion.
They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism.
Hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, were killed in the farthest point on earth in Japan.
[For them] this is not a crime, but rather a debatable issue.
They bombed Iraq and considered that a debatable issue.
These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us
But when a dozen people of them were killed in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed and all hypocrite ones stood behind the head of the world's infidelity - behind the Hubal [an idol worshipped by pagans before the advent of Islam] of the age - namely, America and its supporters.
These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us.
neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed
The winds of faith and change have blown to remove falsehood from the [Arabian] peninsula of Prophet Mohammed, may God's prayers be upon him.
As for the United States, I tell it and its people these few words: I swear by Almighty God who raised the heavens without pillars that neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed, may God's peace and blessing be upon him.
God is great and glory to Islam.
May God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.
17 March 2004, 12:31 PM
#51
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Moses you are forgetting what I said before though, OBL is quoting all the Islamic stuff to raise hatred of America and to drum up the massive support he desires by playing on peoples/communities/nations plights. He murders innocent people including Muslims without a care in the World. He murders Muslims, how many times does it have to be said to Muslims before they will understand he is not their saviour. He is a murderous terrorist who is using their religion as a reason to do what he is doing and kills his own as nothing is more important to him than he own personal crusade. HE MURDERS MUSLIMS.
To me to say he is a Muslim would be a massive insult to the good Muslims of the World. Who would want him as their number one example/representative of their religion. He should be hated and despised by all Muslims Worldwide for what he is doing to their religion, he is demonising it through his murderous actions and by saying that Islam says its fine for him to do what he is doing. He is wrong and he is telling the World lies about Islam.
Nothing he says has any standing with me, its all a shroud to hide his underlying ambitions to do as much damage to the USA as he can. If he is doing it as a Muslim then he is two faced and his Muslim roots then only suit him when he feels like it as once he was in league with the USA so as a Muslim he is a traitor. But oh no its ok now is it he has repented for his sins of being their puppet? He is full of **** and you know it. His Islamic speeches are an insult to Muslims and if they cant see it then it is very sad that they can be so easily led by the Worlds worst murderer.
To me to say he is a Muslim would be a massive insult to the good Muslims of the World. Who would want him as their number one example/representative of their religion. He should be hated and despised by all Muslims Worldwide for what he is doing to their religion, he is demonising it through his murderous actions and by saying that Islam says its fine for him to do what he is doing. He is wrong and he is telling the World lies about Islam.
Nothing he says has any standing with me, its all a shroud to hide his underlying ambitions to do as much damage to the USA as he can. If he is doing it as a Muslim then he is two faced and his Muslim roots then only suit him when he feels like it as once he was in league with the USA so as a Muslim he is a traitor. But oh no its ok now is it he has repented for his sins of being their puppet? He is full of **** and you know it. His Islamic speeches are an insult to Muslims and if they cant see it then it is very sad that they can be so easily led by the Worlds worst murderer.
17 March 2004, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by **************
Moses you are forgetting what I said before though, OBL is quoting all the Islamic stuff to raise hatred of America and to drum up the massive support he desires by playing on peoples/communities/nations plights. He murders innocent people including Muslims without a care in the World. He murders Muslims, how many times does it have to be said to Muslims before they will understand he is not their saviour. He is a murderous terrorist who is using their religion as a reason to do what he is doing and kills his own as nothing is more important to him than he own personal crusade. HE MURDERS MUSLIMS.
To me to say he is a Muslim would be a massive insult to the good Muslims of the World. Who would want him as their number one example/representative of their religion. He should be hated and despised by all Muslims Worldwide for what he is doing to their religion, he is demonising it through his murderous actions and by saying that Islam says its fine for him to do what he is doing. He is wrong and he is telling the World lies about Islam.
Nothing he says has any standing with me, its all a shroud to hide his underlying ambitions to do as much damage to the USA as he can. If he is doing it as a Muslim then he is two faced and his Muslim roots then only suit him when he feels like it as once he was in league with the USA so as a Muslim he is a traitor. But oh no its ok now is it he has repented for his sins of being their puppet? He is full of **** and you know it. His Islamic speeches are an insult to Muslims and if they cant see it then it is very sad that they can be so easily led by the Worlds worst murderer.
To me to say he is a Muslim would be a massive insult to the good Muslims of the World. Who would want him as their number one example/representative of their religion. He should be hated and despised by all Muslims Worldwide for what he is doing to their religion, he is demonising it through his murderous actions and by saying that Islam says its fine for him to do what he is doing. He is wrong and he is telling the World lies about Islam.
Nothing he says has any standing with me, its all a shroud to hide his underlying ambitions to do as much damage to the USA as he can. If he is doing it as a Muslim then he is two faced and his Muslim roots then only suit him when he feels like it as once he was in league with the USA so as a Muslim he is a traitor. But oh no its ok now is it he has repented for his sins of being their puppet? He is full of **** and you know it. His Islamic speeches are an insult to Muslims and if they cant see it then it is very sad that they can be so easily led by the Worlds worst murderer.
What Moses is saying, by quoting OBL verbatim, is that there is/was a possibility of negotiation, on issues such as Palestine, US foreign policy in the region etc.
Go back to the IRA example, Im not sure if Sinn Fein were willing or whether they were pushed. The American influence was pretty strong I think, on both sides, just my opinion of course.
OBL's old buddies in the CIA could try to communicate with him, or through various intermediaries. As I have stated previously, its got to be worth a try, better than carrying on the killing.
Asif
Last edited by AsifScoob; 17 March 2004 at 01:03 PM.
17 March 2004, 01:09 PM
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mate what u are saying is true
im not arguing with u
but the muslim state is so fecked up just now with humiliation i think they will settle for anything to save them
and they have 2 choices bush or osama, u guess who they will support
and speeches like the above will find him alot of support
i understand why some people are joining up with him, i can just imagine if i was suffering like they are and my kids and wife and mum got slaughtered from the west and their allies, i could see why he would have an effect on their mind, especially when u have nothing to live for , their is only one way out
i just wanted to show it to u mate as we were talking about it 2 days ago and i think osama could have been stopped if the usa listened to him in the 90's all he wanted that time was get out of the holy land and stop supporting israeli barbarism
then their would be a different story, this mangave his wealth and life to the struggle of afghanistan against occupation of russia , of course he has fans out their, their is no other leader evil or good that has done that, all they ever want to do is fill their own pockets like the b@stard mubarak and saudi ***** lover kings and princes
so i see why people opted for osama
all i need is the quran im my own leader
im not arguing with u
but the muslim state is so fecked up just now with humiliation i think they will settle for anything to save them
and they have 2 choices bush or osama, u guess who they will support
and speeches like the above will find him alot of support
i understand why some people are joining up with him, i can just imagine if i was suffering like they are and my kids and wife and mum got slaughtered from the west and their allies, i could see why he would have an effect on their mind, especially when u have nothing to live for , their is only one way out
i just wanted to show it to u mate as we were talking about it 2 days ago and i think osama could have been stopped if the usa listened to him in the 90's all he wanted that time was get out of the holy land and stop supporting israeli barbarism
then their would be a different story, this mangave his wealth and life to the struggle of afghanistan against occupation of russia , of course he has fans out their, their is no other leader evil or good that has done that, all they ever want to do is fill their own pockets like the b@stard mubarak and saudi ***** lover kings and princes
so i see why people opted for osama
all i need is the quran im my own leader
17 March 2004, 01:10 PM
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thanks asif thats what i mean bros 
bush said either u are with us or the terrorists, he didnt really give a way out
well im not with u bush or the terrorists im with my people
bush said either u are with us or the terrorists, he didnt really give a way out
well im not with u bush or the terrorists im with my people
17 March 2004, 01:10 PM
#55
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My point is Asif that he can play on that now because negotiation didn't happen and he is saying its the US's fault for that. If he had been offered negotiation there is no way he would have taken it. Its just another path for him to exploit. You can not negotitate with extremists, thats why they are extremists, only their point of view is ever going to be right and their demands have to be met 100% with no concessions on their behalf.
He is not stupid and knows how to exploit every available option open to him to gain support.
He is not stupid and knows how to exploit every available option open to him to gain support.
17 March 2004, 01:15 PM
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bravo post
--------------
You can not negotitate with extremists, thats why they are extremists, only their point of view is ever going to be right and their demands have to be met 100% with no concessions on their behalf.
---------
its this kind of attitude that creates terrorism when the arrogant nations dont listen and just do what they feel like
i believe and will always believe osama would have stopped it one time only if usa went out of the arabia and stopped supporting and messing with lives of the muslims and to stop the palestinian aggression
while osamas brothers were ******** ****** and driving mclarens and ferarraris their brother was out fighting, of course young muslims will follow him coz they dont see another muslim out their who stood up for them, their all busy pleasing their american masters and hoarding wealth
--------------
You can not negotitate with extremists, thats why they are extremists, only their point of view is ever going to be right and their demands have to be met 100% with no concessions on their behalf.
---------
its this kind of attitude that creates terrorism when the arrogant nations dont listen and just do what they feel like
i believe and will always believe osama would have stopped it one time only if usa went out of the arabia and stopped supporting and messing with lives of the muslims and to stop the palestinian aggression
while osamas brothers were ******** ****** and driving mclarens and ferarraris their brother was out fighting, of course young muslims will follow him coz they dont see another muslim out their who stood up for them, their all busy pleasing their american masters and hoarding wealth
17 March 2004, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by **************
dba it depends on why you think the war was started. If its because they were going to find weapons of mass destruction and show them to the world then thats wrong only in as much as that was not the sole purpose. It was a major contributing factor but with many others too. Too many people think that it was soley about he has x number type y's and we will show the world and destroy them. That was not the sole reason for the war.
First and foremost Saddam had previously owned and used weapons of mass destruction on his own population in the form of biological and chemical weapons on the marsh arabs and also in the war with Iran. He had the capabilites to make them, he had made them and he had used them. To me that is the biggest justifiable reason for the invasion of Iraq. Just because none were found doesn't mean they never existed, they did. They could have been destroyed just before the war to hide the fact he had them or could still be hidden in the dessert for all anyone knows.
He had terrorist training camps in the North of his country which he knew about and didnt close down so was allowing them to be there. When you combine the fact he has terrorists in his country that are welcome and the fact he has manufactured and used weapons of mass destruction then to me thats good enough reason on its own to go in and take him out of power and sort the country out to make sure the possibility of production and supply of those weapons is not feasable.
I fully supported the Iraq war on that basis alone. The issues of oil and establishing a strong hold in the area are secondary and ones that I agree do need to be resolved. However Saddam had to go and the threat of him dealing with terrorists needed to be eliminated.
First and foremost Saddam had previously owned and used weapons of mass destruction on his own population in the form of biological and chemical weapons on the marsh arabs and also in the war with Iran. He had the capabilites to make them, he had made them and he had used them. To me that is the biggest justifiable reason for the invasion of Iraq. Just because none were found doesn't mean they never existed, they did. They could have been destroyed just before the war to hide the fact he had them or could still be hidden in the dessert for all anyone knows.
He had terrorist training camps in the North of his country which he knew about and didnt close down so was allowing them to be there. When you combine the fact he has terrorists in his country that are welcome and the fact he has manufactured and used weapons of mass destruction then to me thats good enough reason on its own to go in and take him out of power and sort the country out to make sure the possibility of production and supply of those weapons is not feasable.
I fully supported the Iraq war on that basis alone. The issues of oil and establishing a strong hold in the area are secondary and ones that I agree do need to be resolved. However Saddam had to go and the threat of him dealing with terrorists needed to be eliminated.
As I recall, WMD's was the sole reason for going to war with Iraq, coupled with the lack of co-operation with weapons inspectors etc.
The terrorist thing came out during the invasion, plus I dont recall seeing any evidence of it, camps or whatever and I was sat glued to the TV for 12 plus hours a day, watching it, as I got made redundant the same week the war started!
Couple of points, when he used WMD's on Iran as you say, he was our friend at the time, same as when he killed the Kurds etc. In fact whatever he did, USS Stark etc. he was our friend right up to the invasion of Kuwait.
For me, if he had them, that fact that he didn't use them to save his own backside tells me everything I need to know. I know he didn't cooperate, but in the arab dictators mind, they dont like to appear weak in front of their own people when being 'bullied' about. They are the ones who like to do the bullying. If this alone helped him shoot himself in the foot so to speak, I can believe that.
I support the deposing of Saddam, nasty character etc, but we are not the policemen of the World, who's next, North Korea? Zimbabwe?
I think the best way to protect our boys is not to use them unless we HAVE to. And I say this with members of my family having served in the British Army.
As far as this thread is concerned I fully support the comments from Jye and Beemer Deano, but with a healthy respect for those guys who have served or about to.
Asif
17 March 2004, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by **************
My point is Asif that he can play on that now because negotiation didn't happen and he is saying its the US's fault for that. If he had been offered negotiation there is no way he would have taken it. Its just another path for him to exploit. You can not negotitate with extremists, thats why they are extremists, only their point of view is ever going to be right and their demands have to be met 100% with no concessions on their behalf.
He is not stupid and knows how to exploit every available option open to him to gain support.
He is not stupid and knows how to exploit every available option open to him to gain support.
I agree wholeheartedly, but we thought the IRA would never negotiate. My simple response, if you dont mind, is that "If theres a will theres a way"
Asif
17 March 2004, 01:29 PM
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lol i cant believe u said im defending him, thats a sad one mate
im giving u the view of some muslims and by the way osama is the leader but he doesnt control all al qaeda i thought u knew, he wanted shia and sunni's and wahabis to join forces and be like brothers, what u see now are the cells with their own idea;s basically b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s
its out of control now, osama aint controlling it no more, new leaders have merged, i thought we all knew that ? ?
and dont say im defending him when i aint, i talk about hitler and himmler all the time does that mean im defending them
i dont think so
im giving u the view of some muslims and by the way osama is the leader but he doesnt control all al qaeda i thought u knew, he wanted shia and sunni's and wahabis to join forces and be like brothers, what u see now are the cells with their own idea;s basically b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s
its out of control now, osama aint controlling it no more, new leaders have merged, i thought we all knew that ? ?
and dont say im defending him when i aint, i talk about hitler and himmler all the time does that mean im defending them
i dont think so