ex-webby

Right.

As a temporary measure, we have added a group buy forum. All group buy will be moved to this forum, until we are able to impliment the features we've discussed.

Thank you to everyone for their input.

All the best

Simon

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Simon : I am sorry you think my position or view is selfish. The comment is hurtful. I thought I was on your side and recognise your dilemma. Organising and running ScoobyNet obviously takes a lot of time and effort and it has to be paid for because as you rightly point out, if it is not financially viable it will not exist.
I am not aware of the reasons why a flat annual subscription of £5 or £10 or whatever, which would give the entitlement to post on ScoobyNet, would not work. I am however interested enough to read up on any threads or links you can pass on to me.

I am sure there are cosy arrangments that exist within the Subaru aftermarket supply chain. That is one reason why bits for a Subaru often cost much more. This is not in the interests of ScoobyNetters. Obviously a supplier who is used to selling an intercooler for £1200 will be wrankled when somebody comes along with a good quality FMIC for £400 + import and vat in a group buy. Saving fellow ScoobyNetters £800 or whatever is pretty significant. I want you to make a financial success of ScoobyNet but you will shoot yourself in the foot with cumbersome group buying procedures or restricting the range of suppliers.

Why alter something that works pretty well at present ?

Please remember that it is your members that start the group buys not the suppliers.
A case of the tail wagging the dog ? You can get your revenue from all of us instead of being threatened by advertisers.
Thanks for that Jerome.

Regards,

Harvey.

SlowBoy

iTrader: (1)

Forgive me for being thick, but could someone please explain the need for so much anonymity?

ex-webby

harvey

I tried to make it clear that you should not take offense. This is the overriding factor (which I explained before). You cannot JUST think about the members. There is more to scoobynet than that. The same as you cannot JUST think about the advertisers, or JUST think about the webmasters, or JUST think about the moderators. You have to take them all into account.

The tail is not wagging the dog. ALL parts of the community are equally important. That is a fact that you must accept. There is no tail and no dog.

"Why alter something that works pretty well at present ?"

I wouldn't do that. However this does not fall into that category for the reasons already stated. It might work PERFECTLY for the members NOW. It might work PERFECTLY for the vendors who get the business NOW. But if our advertisers pull out because of it, or less new advertisers come online, scoobynet will need to be closed and nobody will have a forum to get these great deals on, and make so much money out of.

This was the reason for the "selfish" comment as you seem to be thinking only of one group. The group you belong to. Meaning you are thinking of your "self" and not others.

The bigger picture is never as easy to take in.

---

SlowBoy

Hi, the anonymity was purely to remove an element of potential abuse. Stop people posting them up and just asking people to contact them as they "need to do the deal this week or it won't be on offer" or whatever.

This way, all vendors / members get a fair crack of the whip prior to any individual being known to be involved.

All the best

Simon

ex-webby

And also..

as I said you are reading too much into it all...

Nobody has THREATENED us. We enjoy and excellent relationship with our advertisers as they are almost all close to the community and long standing members of it.

All of the advertisers get great benefit from advertising, and it is incredible what they have to put up with in order to stay advertisers. I respect them greatly for that.

What I am trying to do is be pro-active. I don't know what you do for a living, but I would be surprised if you always wait for someone to threaten you before acting on a potential problem. That's just foresight and due diligence.

I apologise that I just do not have time to search out one of the many threads discussing charging for posting on scoobynet, but please feel free to start a poll in general if you would like to see the reaction for yourself.

All the best

Simon

mart360

I suggegested that months ago....

i heard nothing more, so took it that you wernt interested!!!

you could replace the muppets with the group buy forum!!!!!



save a bit of bandwidth too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




m

harvey

iTrader: (48)

So where are the links to discussions on why a flat membership fee for everybody will not work.

If you read my posts you will see I am fully alert and sympathetic to your need to generate revenue.

SDB

Hi Harvey

If you read my posts you would not need to ask the questions you're asking I promise I'm not trying to be nasty, just trying to point out the reason we're going round in circles.

Check out the last paragraph of my last post.

All the best

Simon

PS. mart306.. are you saying you suggested the solution we've come up with? If so I'll be stunned, but will apologise for not listening at the time.

Spoon

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this but I've never seen any company that pays to advertise on ScoobyNet once post up a potential group buy.

They are aware of the things that will sell.

After all said and done it's a competitive world and they have a head-start in the fact they are ( correct me if I'm wrong) allowed to advertise their products in the form of a group buy.

If they can pitch their products at an attractive price then I'm sure the problem can be solved, if they can't then it has to be a free market when it comes to choosing where people spend their money.

As any good marketing exercise will state, you have to go looking for business it won't always come looking for you.

You could allow your paying advertisers the opportunity of a specified amount of group buys allowed per annum too. Charging for that could be worked out between yourselves if at all.

If they want the business they should want to work for it.

SlowBoy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the reply.

Bob Rawle

From time to time most companies in most retail markets have special offers, sales or what ever. A group buy is no different in reality EXCEPT for one thing and here I can only speak from our experiences.

Every group buy we have "done" has been in reponse to an approach by someone not associated with us or even known to us.

The person who makes the request becomes the organiser, only if we do not have to expend alot of overhead etc on the organisation can reduced costs be tolerated.

The organiser therefore does the leg work and is, in turn, rewarded with some further reduction, fairs fair.

I think that the product or service that is the subject of a group buy can determine who is invited to join in, we were invited to quote for a group buy involving an aftermarket ecu, we were not accepted as our offered reduction was a bit short of another source, thats how things are sometimes, but it was the choice of the "organiser" who he went with and the choice of the participents that he did. If we had "out bid" that would it have made any difference, probably not.

In another group buy not involving us a service was organised and offered and not taken up by anyone, that is the choice of the community to participate or not.

I guess what I'm getting to is that up to now group buys have been organised by community members on behalf of the community, I agree that this can be abused, its pefectly possible for someone to act as tout for a company by doing this, and to manipulate the market as well. Its a sad fact that this could happen as then the genuine participants will inevitably suffer.

Why is the group buy scene "cluttering" Scoobynet, seems to me the band width used is miniscual compared to the whole.

I can see "green eyes" out there so I can understand if Simon has been getting "complaints".

Setting up a group buy forum is an idea but the bandwidth use would increase not decrease imho, so this isn't/can't be about bandwidth imho.

Group buys are popular, and they are cheap (read free) advertising in that respect.

My own suggestion is that if someone wishes to start a group buy they approach interested companies and get their agreement to participate, they then advise Scoobynet authority's that they wish to proceed with it, a fee could then be charged which would, naturally, be recoved from the group buy proceeds, it may put the group buy up, it may not. Only if the group buy goes ahead and is implemented could payment be justified though.

Suggesting that only advertisers can initiate a group buy is wrong in my view, its not in the spirit, any advertiser can easily "advertise" reductions etc in the banners, so that covers that. Group buys have so far been organised by the community for the good of the community and should continue to be so.

I will formally declare an interest ... I think we have participated in four in the last 12 months with a 5th in progress. On the whole they have all gone well, good work by the organiser's and genuine participants.

I hope that this can be worked out to still retain the spirit of the group buy while providing some control as well, however to open up dutch auctions (as I see it would be) is to destroy that which has been good about it.

some thoughts and views.

Bob

Bob Rawle

As a further comment, many times each day someone posts " I went to so and so and had such and such done and its great and I can't recommend them enough"

Advertising as well by the community, not meant to be antagonistic but where is the line ?

cheers

bob

fuz

I will only buy something if it is discounted fact

I usually find I have to buy goods from outside the uk fact

why is this......... well me/we all don't like paying the high prices we do in th UK

GB's are a chance to buy things from uk companies becase as individuals we get fleased (yes I know they are importing them in from outside the uk)

if there is any point to this then it is this if you do what you sugest then good to you but I will visit/post on other bbs when it comes to looking for gb's

R19KET

Simon,

I think the new proposals, and forum will certainly help tidy thing up.

IMO, "authorised vendors/advertisers" have little to complain about. All of the group buys are visable and there's nothing preventing them, or anyone else approaching the organiser, and trying to compete.

What it will stop, and you are absolutly correct, is the GB's organised by people with a vested interest, of one form, or another, who for reasons of their own, Prevent other suppliers bidding, even if they are cheaper !!!!

As a supplier, I have love/hate feelings towards GB's, but it's an open market, and "business, is business". As a supplier, I look around to find the best deal, based on price/availability/support, so I can hardly complain if potetial customers do the same.

Mark/Lateral Performance.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

So, to those of you who are suppliers:

When (if) you pay for an ad, do you expect anything over and above the placement of your company's banner at the top of the page?

Do you expect, or do you feel it would be reasonable to expect, special treatment in the form of better (exclusive?) access to group buys? Would you pay extra, or be more likely to take out or extend an ad, if you were given that facility as part of the package?

One worry I have is that restricting GBs to advertisers only will effectively kill them off for any unusual products, where there's not much competition. Suppose only one advertiser can obtain a particular item, say a brand of FMIC or unusual colour of furry dice. Where's the incentive to offer the best price?

Brun

R19KET has the best answer yet IMO

ex-webby

PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY

As always happens in these kinds of threads, people are coming in with very well worded and carefully thoughtout replies, but have clearly not read the thread, or even my responses, which I asked in bold letters at the beginning of this thread that you did before replying.

NONE OF THE ADVERTISERS HAVE COMPLAINED

The advertisers are not ALLOWED to post group buys on the forum as you all complain about commercial posts.

The advertisers are not ALLOWED to contact group buy organisers offline and offer their services because we ask them not to spam you.

The advertisers put up with SO MUCH, and have to restrict themselves in such a huge way.

They do not expect MORE than their banner advert, but if I were them, I would simply want the same as other people. If I saw my competitors being able to offer group buys (through some middly man) on the open forums, I would be a little disheartened to say the least.

Any further replies that contain anything that shows this post or any other webmaster post in this thread has not been read will be removed.

All the best

Simon

Phil

Surely then the easy option is to allow them to do it and put them on the same footing as the non advertisers

I'm sure they would welcome that as a way forward

Perhaps one step forward 2 forums

1. Authorised Advertisers GB forum

and

2. Non Authorised Advertisers GB Forum


or ONE forum but flag the threads Authorised and unAuthorised

ex-webby

Phil

The answer's in the quote!

The members complain about us allowing commercial sponsors to spam them if they post on the open forums.

Regards

Simon

The_Judge

I don't think this point has been made, but if it has, I won't be pissed off if you remove my post...

The Group Buy is not the be all and end all of purchasing on Scoobynet. How many people on here ONLY purchase goods via group buys? Not very many, I'll bet.

The advertisers still make their money from consumers dealing with them directly, and always will.

Group Buys aren't always the most convenient option available to the consumer, and so the consumer will always have the option available to buy from an advertising supplier. Or if they're like me, they'll use Google AS WELL AS checking out the advertising suppliers sites.

Of all the things I've purchased for my Impreza since buying in July last year, I've only been involved with 3 Group Buys - Hayward & Scott down pipe, Knocklink and sensor, and STi panel filter. However, I've also purchased a shed-load of other stuff, ALL DIRECT from different suppliers. And I can't possibly be the only one...

So is there really a problem? Particularly as Simon has already stated NONE OF THE ADVERTISERS HAVE COMPLAINED, and also Mark and Bob have backed that up.

I see the Group Buy forum has already been created down the bottom, in the Private Classified section. My suggestion? Let it run as it is for a month or so, and see how it goes... Time, as they say, will tell.

ozzy

Personally, I don't see any need for anything other than a moderated GB forum where things can be organised - or more to the point members can actually see them.

I almost missed out on the LambdaLink GB through BR Development simply because it was down at the 4th page in General. Advertisers should be complaining that they can potentially lose business if the GB's aren't visible to all.

As for suppliers m8's starting them, then I don't see how this can be policed unless severe restrictions are imposed. Suppliers offering "special offers" I feel is a whole different topic to GB'S IMHO.

Perhaps we should stick with the GB forum, but offer the paying advertisers a "Special Offers" forum where they can actively advertise themselves.

It's up to the advertisers to be competitive and at the end of the day, from a buyers point of view I want the best deal possible. I don't mind paying a premium for good service, but I can make that decision for myself based on their track record within the community.

Stefan

rb5 286

iTrader: (2)

I have done a few group buys now over the last couple of years using scoobynet to offer other Subaru owners the chance of getting something for their pride & joy at a cut price from the RRP.

Over these couple of years I have found that some suppliers are just plain & simply greedy and malicious to other suppliers, a recent group buy on P1 wheels showed it goes even as high as Subaru dealers themselves!!!

After my local dealer offered a discount on 5+ sets of wheels he had IM on the phone because OTHER subaru dealers had gone crying to IM saying "HE CANT DO THAT" - FFS the dealer isnt doing anything wrong, he's doing a deal with US scoobynetters, if the other's dont want to do the same offer then shut up, they've just lost some business - the group buy was worth over £20k in the end so instead of crying and whinging they could have made the same offer and gone away with A LOT of happy customers and a PROFIT.
This highlights the point why some suppliers wish to remain annonymous because why should they put up with a load of grief from others.

Ok, so in business there is always some1 ready to stab u in the back but I, for one, can understand why a supplier will contact a scoobynet member to post up if there is a good deal to be had.

I think the idea of having the separate GB forum is xclent (it works well on our forum, P1WOC & NAISOC) but PLEASE dont allow it to be for the use of autorised dealers only to make the offers, I feel there will be a lot of missed opportunities and mioney to be saved if you should do that.

As you said, run it for a trial period of 6 months and see how it goes. At the end of the day, if one of your authorised dealers cannot match some1 elses discounted prices then they should look at it from other views:

- how can he do it so cheap? need to have a word with my supplier!!!
- You arent going to win every sale so move onto the next one



We are all a community on here, including the suppliers, without the members the suppliers wouldnt make money, without the suppliers we wouldnt have the flash scoobs we drive around in and without SCOOBYNET suppliers & members wouldnt interact.


well thats my view.



Webteam, keep up the good work

Spoon

Mr Webmaster- I take on board your reply in your rather trademark condescending style and can only say that the advertisers who pay you should have at least equal rights to post a group buy or contact an organiser of a group buy offering their best deal.

This can only be in the best interests of anybody wanting to join the group buy.

The whingeing members here who complain about commercial advertising are just those who probably have a zero input in anything useful anyway.

In a seperate forum there is no need to complain because they need'nt visit that forum, so what they can't see shouldn't affect them.

It certainly won't clutter their general page.

So really it's up to you to take charge with this one imo and has very little to do with it's members.

The advertisers pay, they should have as many opportunities to sell their goods as possible. If they can compete price-wise with other "outside" suppliers then they should win the business everytime. Remember in the cold light of the day it really is down to cost when you are trying to attract buyers of similar products.

The more outside suppliers see this lost opportunity then they may just be encouraged to pay to advertise to get a slice of the group buy cake, which in turn may get bigger and bigger.

So Webman, it's up to you. Who else wears their pants on the outside of their trousers after all?

p.s I have no conflict of interest whatsoever.

p.p.s please don't spell cheap with 2 e's again, it's so annoying.

BMWhere?

I can understand members complaining if the general forum is spammed by commercial sponsors, but surely nobody would object to a sponsor posting a group buy in a separate group buy forum.

I don't see the need for such a complicated solution. A group buy forum where anyone, private or commercial can post a group buy would be enough. "Authorised Advertisers" are always indicated next to their names whenever they post, so the members know if its a commercial offer or private. Perhaps restricting the forum so posts can only be started by plus members and authorised advertisers only (similar to current for sale forums) could help restrict offers from non authorised advertisers.

The only additional feature I would like to see is the "count me in" box to maintain a list of buyers at the top of the forum instead of everybody having to post a reply and hope you get updated in the list by the group-buy organiser.

Dunk

iTrader: (1)

Group Buys should not be restricted to existing Scoobynet advertisers, but certainly it is in everyones interest that they be made aware, and given the opportunity to compete to supply the porduct / service required.

The buyers should let the quality of the offering dictate who gets the business rather than who is a member of the Scoobynet supporters club.

** SIMPLE IDEA **

Where a non Scoobynet supplier is used for a group buy, I would like to see a
small percentage of the saving made passed back to Scoobynet as a gesture of goodwill towards the running costs by all concerned.


D

R19KET

Simon,

I think there is a fine line between suppliers, "authorised", or not, posting to help people, and coming across as Blatant ambulance chasers. Some clearly come into the latter catagory.

However, it would seem to be totally counter productive to ban suppliers, authorised or not, from approaching a GB thread, or organiser, if it could benefit those involved.

I can't imagine anyone who's openly expressed an interest in buying a product, complaining that a supplier is trying to save them money ???

Personally, I try very hard, to avoid any commercial bias in my posts, because I know exactly what response I'd get from the moderators, and rightly so. However, some suppliers would "appear" to get away with bl**dy murder !

Allow your Authorised suppliers to post more openly, they'll get better VFM, and the community will certainly let them know if they start taking the p*ss.

Mark.

PhilA

group buy forum, yes great idea. trying to lock group buys down, bad idea. competition is what it's all about. if they don't like it offer a group buy of their own or lower prices?
If you stop group buys they will just be done on "other" forums and nothing will change other than some scoobynet members will miss out all together?

ex-webby

OK That's it.

Almost all of the posts following mine contain things which clearly show you have not read the responses in this thread as they are going over old topics that have already been discussed and agreed.

For this reason I'm not going to lock this thread.

Regards

Simon