Typical responses from marque owners who dismiss the opposition without driving.

For example I have an EVO VIII FQ300, but still think the top end Scoobs are great. I would really consider the Type C and its replacement very seriously.

I don't have a ZR or R25, we did have a BRM and it had some of the worst seats in existance, but its engine was as sweet as a nut. The ZRX has an engine built by Judd.

Judd if you are unsure are the worlds best Sportcar engine manufacturer. They are also producing an engine for WSR in the BTCC!

Plus, if you want to see real performance I know a few owners of MG Metros that could show a few Japanease cars the way!

BTW, I have an MG ZT260 and very proud of it too!

 

I'm aware of who judd are, that doesn't in any way mean that the comments about MGR's generally p1ss poor model range/reliability/quality are wrong though does it?

As for being a "marque owner" as you put it I've had vehicles from most mainstream manufacturers at one time or another including some Rover company hacks. Currently own Subaru, BMW, Peugeot and think all 3 manufacturers make some real duffers, not though almost an entire model range like MGR.

When a manufacturer makes a genuinely interesting car that does well in terms of reliability etc then I'm the first to say it. Just like I've done with the 75. As for the MGZT260 it's relatively underpowered especially when you consider the displacement, but it is interesting and about the only MGR I'd have any interest in owning.

 

[QUOTE=NACRO]Currently own Subaru, BMW, Peugeot and think all 3 manufacturers make some real duffers, not though almost an entire model range like MGR.
QUOTE]

Careful, you really want an answer to the duffers BMW make? Although I do like the new 645. The MINI isn't a BMW it's MGR through and through!

Judd are not only building engines for WSR for the public consumption they are fitting the Judd engine into any K-series engined car too. 250bhp+ out of as really lightweight engine!

The 75 is one of the best cars on the block (I only say this through experience - had 75 and ZT) and the 260 is underpowered and easily tuneable. But 260 is a fine figure when you compare the Jap 4wd's.

My last comment on the subject - at Rally Super Car Day 2 years ago my mate and I were out in a ZS180 and ZT190 and there were a few Jap cars out ther including a P1. We didn't see them (although it could be down to the drivers).

Say hello at RSCD if you are there this year! We'll be their in the underpowered Metro and ZT260! Might even bring the EVO!

 

quote: "Careful, you really want an answer to the duffers BMW make?"

No, the point being that just because I own one of the best models that marque ever made doesn't mean I'm blind to the faults of their other cars. That would just be ******* stupid wouldn't it? A bit like the MGR defenders on here really.

260ps isn't a great figure for a 4.6 ltr V8 is it really? Not when you consider some of the 'tacky' jap 4WD's are getting over 300bhp out of 2ltrs. As you say though potential for more from the lard *** American lump. Really a very interesting car from MGR switching to RWD etc. As someone else mentioned credit where credit is due, although anyone wanting an old style V8 thumper would be better advised going for a Monaro or Falcon. In fact at the price of the Rover V8 you could get a secondhand M5 with 400bhp from it's V8, one of the finest V8 cars produced for years. I know where my money would be quicker than you can say Reinheitsgebot. Guess what it wouldn't be on the lackluster Brit.

 

Narco,

Which BMW model would that be?

As for V8 tuning - silly horsepowers are available by companies such as Rousch (own Mountune). Good comparison with the Monaro, and worthy of a look too. Although I prefer 4 doors.

Yep, EVO's and Scoobs can get big horsepoweres too, but a V8 is more fun to drive than a Turbo, unless you want all out speed.

We were discussing the ZR and if you want fact the ZR for performance/£ is virtually unbeatable. Yes it's no where in the same league as the MINI (it would have replaced some of the sales of the R25/ZR if BMW maintained their ownership). But to spec the MINI to a serious level you have to pay serious money and before you know it you are into ZT money! We know cos her indoors wants one of these girly overweight monsters!

 

Yes we were discussing the MGZR and it seems to offer a fair turn of speed for the cash, the point being though that it doesn't count for much unless it's reliable and well built which according to the survey brought up by someone else, it clearly isn't.

The BMW I currently own is an E30 M3 in concours condition, it's the best car I've ever driven in terms of steering feel and despite being relatively low on power it performs very well on track. Should be worth what I paid for it when it comes time to sell as well.

 

E30 M3 is a fine car. Mate had a left hooker (pristine too). Bought from Munich Legends, he attempted to get me into the previous M5, I hated it, I found it to be a heavy lardy car!

If money was no object it would have to be a GT3. But ye olde Metro is still worth serious money and doesn't depreciate that badly - one in MN this week for £85k

The R25/ZR was punished in that survey no question. It would be interesting to see why the owners thought bad of the cars. Also, that were a lot of other machines badly slated too.

 

Just out of curiosity, how many of you have actually sat behind the wheel of an MG Rover product in the last year or so?

I find it rather amusing that Scooby drivers call them a load of rubbish when the only thing that keeps the Scooby alive is the engine and handling. If you were to look objectively at a Scooby and trace it's history, you will find that they always get critisised for their interiors being of a poor materialy quality and unispiring.

The only real reason Subaru left the farming community and ploughing fields was becasue of the sudden WRC leap to glory, never forget that when you before you start to slag off other products. MG has got a much longer and distinguised history behind it as opposed to the U R A BUS, sorry Subaru brand.

I ran Scoobies for a few years during their rise to fame and where they are now and if it wasn't for the flat 4, a turbo and a rally team the normal cars wouldn't show up as much as they do now. I was always disappointed with their interiors, but never the performance.

By knocking an MG product you could just be recycling the motoring press because I personally think that they are still feeling stupid for being proved wrong about MGR shutting down after 12 months and low and behold, they're still here 4 years on. The motoring press done't handle embarassment very well. If you look close enough, you'll notice that they like the products underneath, they just haven't get the ***** to admit that they do.

Just an observation.

 

I've owned an Impreza Turbo for almost 2 years now, and am happy with it. For the money, not a great deal gets close in terms of running costs for performance. My brother is a Sales Manager with MG Rover, and as a result, I have been a passenger in all manner of their offerings.

Performance - the MG ZS 180 is IMO the best of the range. It sounds awesome, goes well, and has unbelievable handling when you consider it's a tarted up 45. It even looks good, in certain colours.

However, being related to people who work with MG-R, I hear about the problems, mainly in reliability. It has to be said, they do suffer from poor build quality, and sometimes poor servicing. A point that is highlighted in these surveys.

I agree though, you'd have to be blinkered to say that the MG range is "crap" when talking performance for the money. And the interior of the ZT is leagues ahead of the Impreza, though the days of really terrible interiors in Scoobies are long gone.

If MG-R gets its act together, and can muster up decent replacements for the 25 and 45, lets MG loose on them again, then the cars could be right up there with the best. Until then, ZT aside, the range is going to slip futher and further behind the competition, regardless of what special editions are dreamt up.

 

Very true, I agree that they need to change 45 and 25 quickly as they have been around for quite a while now, but having said that, from a tecnology point of view, they are still pretty close to also of current prducts.

The 45/ZR chassis is still one of the most expensive and advanced chassis systems for the position it is in on the market and many have looked at producing such an item, but on the grounds of cost, they won't. Even thought based on the old Honda Civic system, it still out performs all but the dedicated chassis in terms of ride and handling. The new Honda Civic uses a similar set up , just a generation on, but it's the ZS that still beats it and in the right hands some well known other Japanese motors!

Developing a new car is not a 10 minute job and is extremely expensive. Apparently the average cost of a new car (and by new I mean from the ground up not a facelift) is somewhere around the half billion pound mark upwards, not cheap. Rover 75 cost £1 Billion and took 4.5 or so years to bring to market, the kind of time and money that MGR simply do not have esp. when compared to other companies such as Japanese and German manufacturers.

There was a quote from the Geneva show from some one who asked "Isn't MGR the company that everyone loves to hate?" to which an American journalist (with no axe or opinion to grind) replied with "I thought it was the company that everyone hates to love".

The whole MGR is such an emotive subject and for those who actually care about the comapny get a tad defensive when people have a go without really sitting down and looking at the product and taking into consideration all of the factors that determine the reasons the products are built the way they are etc. It's like if I were to turn round and launch into Subaru's having never sat in one (which I wouldn't becasue I do like them and would have one over an EVo anyday (sorry Jerry) of the week!) and started calling them crap and so on. You guy's would leap to their defense.

I personally wish that people/press etc would just back off and let them try to survive in a market that seems to want to see them fail. 4 years ago, the country wanted to get on and save the company from closure and how dare BMW do what they did to them. Now it seems as though the press will not rest until the do. I find it also very odd that there are other companies out there who are in much worse positions than MGR and seem to be hiding in the shadows. One day, the shadows will lift and the rest will be exposed. I believe people like Saab are struggling and are turning/linking with Subaru for their new cars, what does this say to the world?

I personally wish MGR all the best and hope that they continue to prove people wrong and come up with some new toys for us soon, they deserve a break and I hope that they get it.

 

Dont forget, the ZT 260 is only the warm up man, the main man is along later this year !

 

>>260ps isn't a great figure for a 4.6 ltr V8 is it really? Not when you consider some of the 'tacky' jap 4WD's are getting over 300bhp out of 2ltrs.<<

Not everybody wants a highly stressed, highly tuned small capacity turbo charged 2 litre screamer. Although I have several ..

There's another completely opposite viewpoint: 260ps IS INDEED a great figure for a 4.6 ltr V8.= Lots of luvverly jubbly low down UNDERSTRESSED torque ... bundles of it.... with little risk of the odd rod out through the crankcase like some I could mention...... For those who do not aspire to a 2 litre turbo charged screamer, and there are many, the laid back, understressed, last forever V8 has enormous appeal to a variety of car buyers. Many such buyers will have different values and viewpoints to the majority of folks who may frequent car enthusiasts sites like scoobynet.

Boring I know but ...Different strokes for different folks...... bores and strokes ... hey another one ....

However, keep in mind that the V8 in the SV could be tuned to several times that 260ps figure. I would not fancy the daily driver stop-start grind to work in one of those though ... a form of frustrating torture ..... better off in a Metro .....

Anyway, to return to the original post, that Rover K2000 sounds a bit special ....... even for a 2 litre screamer ...

 

Posts 555 ... that rings a bell ..

 

Rincewind WROTE about our anti-brit media getting it wrong BIGTIME!:

>>they just haven't get the ***** to admit that they do.<<

Like your style Rincewind....like your style.

 

The farm boys have gone quiet!

The K2000 is indeed one very special motor built by professional engineers in Rugby. Funnily enough in a factory next door to Ralliart!

 

The problem is that (MG) Rover have yet to top any surveys in terms of best car. The Impreza, farm-car as you so politely put it, has. Despite that fact that it is apparently a "highly stressed, highly tuned small capacity turbo charged 2 litre screamer."

It also has tremendous reliability, relatively low running/servicing costs, and the potential to add up to 300+bhp to the motor... Not bad for a 2.0 litre.

Don't get me wrong - I like MGs, and wish them all the success in the future, but to try to slate a car that is an icon of performance is a little suicidal. Especially on its own site!

 

Duck-pond WROTE:

>>The problem is that (MG) Rover have yet to top any surveys in terms of best car. <<

That same AutoDistress survey LAST year, the Rover 75 was the only, repeat ONLY car to figure best in TWO of the categories!!!! Pretty good going for an 'also ran' ..... considering all the other far more expensive cars it was competing against..... It also fared quite well in the overall listing ... it dropped a few places in this year's survey.... but only a few places which is to be expected .... even the Boxster slipped down too!

Considering what they are up against from just about every aspect, those MG-R cars' placings in the last two surveys are better than many, including myself expected. I was surprised by these results particularly in view of the still far too widespread "All Rovers are Crap" mentality which must prejudice many judgements and cloud the true picture. Foreign is Best. British is crap! Say it often enough ......

 

quote: "the still far too widespread "All Rovers are Crap" mentality which must prejudice many judgements and cloud the true picture"

Unlike the All Rovers are Great mentality which must prejudice many judgments and cloud the true picture?


British is Best. Foreign is crap! Say it often enough ......



and we will all be driving outdated, unreliable piece of **** rovers

You are guilty of exactly the sort of prejudice you are accusing others of. Best of all your willing to believe in some sort of consipracy against MGR, the fact is people slate them because they are crap and the survey (which you brought up) confirms this for the most part. I think you sound desperate.

 

Can we just clarify something here for all the Speckled Hen fans? The Rover 75 / MG ZT is a fine car. Okay? No-one on this thread, not even Nacro has disputed that.

What we're saying is that if MG-Rover can get the rest of their range to match or even better the standards set by that car, then it will be very successful.

But, at present, both the 25 and 45 models are in desperate need of replacement, and regardless of the ingenuity shown by the MG team, the fact remains that they are going to be left behind the competition, with each year that passes.

 

My dad has just haunted my pc for two hours looking at pictures of ZT's, I think its becoming an obsession.

 

Is the MG and Proton "merger" still going ahead .. I know they where planning to collaborate on car builds and type approval etc..

 

Unsure at what state the Proton merger is at.

No argument the Scoob used to do exceptionally well in JD Powers survey.

MG fans tend to ignore any survey by Auto Express.

As for the current MGR line up:

The 75/ZT is one fine car, although maligned I love it and this comes from an EVO VI/VII/VIII owner past and present!

The 25/ZR and 45/ZS require replacement now and without Protons help (or someone else) the firm will founder as it can't do this alone. I think the umpteenth facelift this Summer will keep them going until then.

The ZS180 albeit based on the R45 is still worth a punt, its a value for money car, unfortunately the R45 heritage always shows through!