Chrisgr31

It depends on the whys and wherefores and all that information we don't have.

I was working on the assumption that he was guilty of a one-off offence of registering for access to a site. I don't know how clear it was when signing up to that site that one was signing up for kiddie ****, rather than "teen ****" which actually has models who are older than 18.

My assumption was that he believed the site was legal, accessed it, and found the content was not what he expected. Therefore left the site, and never went back.

My assumption is that if he was interested in kiddie **** he will have searched for it since 2000 and therefore evidence of it will be found on the current PC.

I can't remember when Operation Ore first came to public attention, but I would assume that if the PC was changed in 2000 because of the knowledge of that Operation or one similar he would have disposed of the PC, rather than keeping it in the attic.

On the assumption that he is innocent of an offence of delibrately seaching out kiddie ****, but is guilty of naively signing up for something he didn't expect then I am not sure what is to be gained by the Police having the Old PC, especially with the amount of trouble it would cause at home.

All of this is based on the assumption that leopards don't change their spots so if he was interested in Kiddie **** he would have visited some sites since 2000 and the police will now have evidence of that.

It could always be that I am far to gullible but without a full truthful confession from the man concerned we don't know!

Party Bird

Chris,

I do agree with what your saying completely, which is what ive explained to my friend. He could've just given his details and expected 'normal' **** but found it to be something different.

In a way i do agree with her mum for handing the pc over because, if it stemed from back in 1999 i think she wants to know for herself. Not quite sure if she wants to torture herself over it or not, but as im sure you can imagine, she's pretty upset right now.

Chrisgr31

I am never sure what is achieved by knowing about something which someone else has done in the past and which they have moved on from. All it really does is give ammunition to come out at some future point during an arguement.

However if he is guilty of delibrately viewing Kiddie **** then it is a totally different picture, and your friend (and/or her mum) will undoubtedly be distraught.

If it was an innocent offence then I am not sure what is gained by the knowledge that he viewed it. Better from the rest of the family to have that element of uncertainity I would have thought.

Having said that I am sure others could say whether it was possible to enter your details on this site whilst unaware of the content, although they may be reluctant to do so, due to the fear of upsetting people.

Party Bird

Im not really sure how it all works, but surelly wouldn't he know if it was child **** that he was about to buy on his credit card?

Obviously no-one knows that but him. It's really confusing, and if it does go for the worst then it seems he maybe in quite a bit of trouble. But then if he did look AND buy something he KNOWS he shouldn't have, then in my opinion he should be punished.

Tiggs

seems odd.....i cant see the police going this far over "teen ****" (which is on sky every day in a censord fashion and prob downloaded by millions of paying pc users everyday) so one assumes he signed up for a site that was showing kids.

as mentioned above- if it was an accident then his pc will show no further use of such site and one assumes thats the end of it. BUT it seems a very heavy handed approach if thats the case? the impact on him will be huge for such a (possibly) minor act years ago?

Chrisgr31

As Party Bird says only he knows what was going through his mind when he entered his credit card details, although I assume the police know the likliehood of people knowing they were paying for kiddie **** when entering their card details.

My understanding was that this operation started because the police wsere given a list of credit card numbers and names and addresses of a kiddie **** site. What I don't know is whther that site also had more adult ****.

The police are working their way through that list of people, and they need the PCs to assist in gatheing evidence. Presumably if they find Kiddie **** or evidence of an effort to find it, on your PC you are totally stuffed.

However if they can't find any on your PC, and only have your name and card details they are a bit short of evidence.

They need the PCs for a long time as it takes a long time to look trough all the data and find (or not) what they want, especially if an effort has been made to delete or hide it.

BuRR

Just for the record, the Operation Ore "list" contains a list of names, corresponding credit card numbers, and how many visits / what was accessed with a particular card.

Remember - the FBI harvested thousands of user details shortly after the time they took over the site.

EddScott

The operation was started using the list of names and addresses taken from the company hosting and supplying the secure credit payment facility not just one site that had child pornography. His company offered a single payment system to access a varied range of pornographic sites.

The reason it all blew up and he and a few other went to jail was that he didn't care or monitor what was on these sites. Indeed his case was that it wasn't his fault what was contained on these sites as all he did was allow a payment facility. However when it went to trial I think it was proved that he was involved and had a hand in creating the sites in the first place.

Chrisgr31

Hmmmm stuffed is the word that springs to mind

Grottbags the witch

Speaking as a wife of a internet user:-

If the police came around my house to seize computers because my husband had used his CC to access a "****" site, then I would gladly give them his computer plus any old hardrives or CD's laying around and would give them my own computer too. I would do this as I know that to withold evidence is in itself a criminal offence and I would want to be innocent of that.

And if my husband had been looking at the sort of **** that the police are most interested in, I don't think I'd want him to be my husband anymore anyway. The very idea of kiddie **** disgusts me to the point he'd be out on his ear and in the divorce courts, how ever unfeeling that is of me.

I have no problem with adults accessing **** created and modeled by consenting adults, but I would not stand by anyone who looked at kiddie ****. No way, no how.

If I get flamed for that, so be it. But it's how I feel.

Party Bird

GBW - I really appreciate your opinion and can now tell my mates mum that she's not acting irrationally by taking the computer to the police.

Personally, i feel that you are right and would have kicked him out straight away - just due to the fact that he used his credit card to pay for some kind of **** on the internet and had to get his computer taken away as the result of this. It cant be good can it.

But then on the other hand, what do you do if it was nothing? Just 'normal' **** which he brought. Because this has happened, my mates mum has taken it real bad and told her husband to go. Whatever the outcome.

Im not sure if this is harsh, or just. Ive never been in this situation or anything like it so before i give any advice, im the shoulder to cry on right now.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Vicious

Granted if noncey stuff but a 5 min video of 2 (or more) consenting adults doing legal stuff?

& has anyone actually asked Dad what he accessed & what has he said? What does he say is on the other PC?

MarkCSC

Just as an aside if you do find any dodgy stuff accidentially please report it to the Internet Watch Foundation at
http://www.iwf.org.uk
or on your phone at http://wap.iwf.org.uk (which we built)

Grottbags the witch

As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with my husband looking at "normal" ****, if by that we mean stuff that consenting adults have produced. I might question why he feels the need to look at it, but would feel as well that maybe I am in some way responsible for that need.

The need to look at kiddie **** is something I cannot get my head around, despite working for 12 years in the field of mental health.

The main problem for the wife will be that she has learnt something about the man she trusts that may or may not be true but that she doesn't like. I know I couldn't wait for a 3 month investigation of a hard drive to take place living under the same roof as someone accused of paying for kiddie ****, let alone trust the man I loved.

It's not an easy situation but it depends on what sort of character you are as to how you react to this.

Jerome

I think it would be pretty difficult to access a site peddling kiddie **** (as opposed to regular ****) by accident. To go as far as entering credit card details for access to such a site is unforgivable in its own right. Curiousity is not an excuse.

If I became aware that someone I knew had accessed kiddie ****, I would want nothing to do with them ever again. I would not hesitate to "grass" them up and supply whatever evidence the Police required.

BuRR

Here is a quick resume of how the information was harvested.

This is just a selection of the text. Hope this helps clear some things up.

Party Bird

Just had my mate on the phone.

It turns out her dad put in his credit card details on because this site wanted some sort of 'proof' that he was over 18, and thats why he put in his credit details. And he has said to her mum that it was nothing to do with child ****, and it was all consenting adults etc.....but until the computer comes back, she is very unsure of what to believe.

It turns out that once you use your credit details, you can access that site for 30 days, then after that I pressume you have to pay again? Which he swears he didnt and supposedly has the credit card statements to prove it.

It seems she has lost trust in him as she doesnt know what to believe. Which is why she has asked him to go.....

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Well it seems that you have to pay to use the site, question is did he access the kiddie site or the adult site?

And the other question is do the police have CC records only, hence asking the same question - or do they already know which CC details accessed the kiddie section - and are now gathering the evidence.

BMWhere?

OK, I don't want to specifically defend this guy, and if he is guilty then I'd be the first to say hang him!

Firstly we know nothing about this guy, his family or any real information about this situation other than they took his computer. So how can we possibly pass judgement and give any advice.

From what has been said, they did not arrest him, they've not taken all the videos and other media that he may or may not own (or have they?), and they didn't search the loft for old computers, which I would have thought would be the obvious place to look. My feeling here is the police don't regard this as a severe case, but I guess they need to chase every avenue with the operation ore enquiry!

I'm also surprised that nobody has pointed out that just because his credit card was used, that doesn't mean that he used it. Legitimate internet shopping sites such as Amazon etc. all keep your credit card details online and I'm quite sure their computer sytems are not bullet proof from hackers. Other smaller companies will be even less secure. Lets face it we hand over our credit cards to complete strangers all the time and it doesn't take much to record the name, number and expiry date on a card, and anyone can set up a fake email address in someone else's name. This guy may never have even looked at a **** site let alone kiddie ****.

As far as advising your friend and her mother goes, it all depends on weather he admits it or completely denies it. If he's admitted it, then dump him no questions. If he denies all knowledge then his wife and family should stand by him until they have any proof otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty and all that!

As for handing in the old pc, she did the right thing. If he's innocent, then no harm done, if not then everything will come out! It still leaves the question though why the police didn't search the loft in the first place?

Party Bird

They did take all things pornographic from the house (just some mags he had!) as well as the computer....even the old porno mags her brother had in his room from when he lived there!!

And no he hasn't been arrested, as they know he used his credit card on the site but dont know for what for.

And he definetely did use it as he admitted it to my mates mum that he did. But he said it was to view adult ****.

I cant answer the question about why did the police didn't search the loft in the first place, maybe because they saw the computer and pressumed that was the one? Really dont know.

About standing by him, it must be hard to, because what if he is arrested? I know i wouldn't want to feel like i stood by my own dad if he'd looked at that sort of stuff. But then, as I havent been put in that situation, i cant really commend.

And as said earlier....he hasn't been arrested has he? Maybe I should believe in innocent until proven guilty?!?

BMWhere?

In that case, he may well have used his credit card to access an adult **** site that had been set up to get credit card details for peodofiles to use to access the kiddie ****. Quite an easy scam to set up!

As hard as it is not to think the worst about this guy, if he denies it, you really should beleive him unless you have a good reason to think otherwise. How bad would you feel if the police bring his computer back in 3 months and appologise for the inconvenience, meanwhile his wife has left him and his kids won't speak to him anymore!

Even if he had been arrested or is arrested in the future, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. He may get arrested so the police can ask him a few questions to clear up some other stuff and then released without charged. If the police don't charge him then he's probably not done anything wrong!

From the info you've given so far, I can't help feel like its too soon to judge. Did his wife know he had magazines? Maybe the fact that hes uses pornography could be another issue that they need to deal with anyway, particularly if he kept it secret!

I guess it may also depend on what his magazines were. If they're "bored housewife" type of stuff then I would guess there no need to worry, but "teenage" type magazines may be a bit more of a concern!

camk

Salem anyone ?...not charged, not arrested, just because the guys CC number is on a site that peddled all types of ****. This does not make him guilty of anything. How do we know how orginised the records were, could they get mixed up...blah blah blah.

wakeboardar

Last year i was downloading some indoor wakeboarding clips from russia and in one of the files was bits of child ****.
It was from Kazzaa file share thing
My computer is shared with the whole family in my house and it really pisses me off
how this stuff is ruining the internet,I would love to let my kids roam about the web picking up fantastic knowledge as the go, but they can only use it now when im in the room now
It was from Kazzaa file share thing.

Tiggs

all seems very harsh if this bloke didnt intend to go where he is said to have gone.....as with the above example, wakeboarder was looking for one thing and got something else- if the bloke in question here did the same it hardly seems a fair approach. after all......wake boarding is not kid **** and **** is not kid ****- if you see what i mean.

and as wakeboarder has said it is wrecking the net- my 8 yr old wants to use the net and it would be great to let her without worrying about what she may find/pop up/etc

Jerome

This story may be of interest.

BuRR

I can concur Wakeboardar's concerns and agree that a lot of content on the Kazaa and associated networks can be labelled incorrectly, but tbh Landslide was a totally different kettle of fish.

tbh, its not really our place to make any assumptions until at least after the computers are examined.

bartmanuk

all i can say is,ive used my credit card to access **** sites as i would imagine alot of red blooded males with pc's have too,and not once ever,have i 'accidently' subscribed to child ****,all **** sites ive visited have always made it clear what your'e about to veiw.
Party Bird,surely your friend has spoken to her father since the police took his pc,i'd like to know what he is saying about it all.

BM

bartmanuk

YES he should

bartmanuk

very well put grotbags,i must admit,i would expect my wife to react exactly the same,as any normal person should...

BM

BMWhere?

Thats exactly the sort of case that I was descibing.