When are you classed as a Professional?
27 April 2004, 09:08 AM
#31
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Anyone can be professional in their attitude or the way they carry out a task. But to be "a professional" implies being a member of a professional institution, having acquired the necessary qualifications, training and experience.
One of the big (and eternally debated) problems with the engineering profession is the perceived low salaries for the level of expertise and responsibility required. It is a chicken and egg situation, until certain responsibilities are only given to suitably qualified professionals (for example design sign off from a C.Eng or Eur Ing qualified engineer) then there is perhaps no incentive to complete the process and become chartered.
I say this as an "Associate" engineer. I've completed every other step, degree, acredited training etc. All I need to do is write a professional report and attend an interview to get full member (& chartered) status, but I haven't sone it as I can't see the immediate benefit.
Maybe something in law which forbids anyone calling themself an engineer, unless they are a member of a recognised engineering institute, would help.
One of the big (and eternally debated) problems with the engineering profession is the perceived low salaries for the level of expertise and responsibility required. It is a chicken and egg situation, until certain responsibilities are only given to suitably qualified professionals (for example design sign off from a C.Eng or Eur Ing qualified engineer) then there is perhaps no incentive to complete the process and become chartered.
I say this as an "Associate" engineer. I've completed every other step, degree, acredited training etc. All I need to do is write a professional report and attend an interview to get full member (& chartered) status, but I haven't sone it as I can't see the immediate benefit.
Maybe something in law which forbids anyone calling themself an engineer, unless they are a member of a recognised engineering institute, would help.
Last edited by Brit_in_Japan; 27 April 2004 at 09:10 AM.
27 April 2004, 09:34 AM
#32
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In certain countries, I think mainly the Netherlands and Scandanavia, Engineer is a prefix to your title, just like Doctor, Professor etc. Bit odd when you first see it.
27 April 2004, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyC_772
Actually now I think about it, a company asking specifically for Chartered Engineers would make me want to run a mile anyway. It shows that they value the label, rather than considering candidates based on their skills and experience. Unless the rules have changed recently, the requirements for CEng status were an accredited degree plus some number of years' training or relevant industrial experience - and I have those anyway. Getting a CEng tag after my name would be a paperwork exercise, and I do enough of that at work!
Andy, BA MEng. No longer AMIEE.
Andy, BA MEng. No longer AMIEE.
I no longer see any point in jumping through the IEEs "hoops" in order to get CEng status - I'm an Electronic Engineer and see no benefit in chartership - companies want people with experience who can get the job done!!
I believe it is different for Structural/Civil Engineers though!!
Steve BEng(Hons), MIEE (although not for much longer!!)
27 April 2004, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Vette_76
Agreed!!
I no longer see any point in jumping through the IEEs "hoops" in order to get CEng status - I'm an Electronic Engineer and see no benefit in chartership - companies want people with experience who can get the job done!!
I believe it is different for Structural/Civil Engineers though!!
Steve BEng(Hons), MIEE (although not for much longer!!)
I no longer see any point in jumping through the IEEs "hoops" in order to get CEng status - I'm an Electronic Engineer and see no benefit in chartership - companies want people with experience who can get the job done!!
I believe it is different for Structural/Civil Engineers though!!
Steve BEng(Hons), MIEE (although not for much longer!!)
In the Chemical industry, the HSE take a dim view if the plant is not looked after by Chartered engineers.
Steve BEng (Hons) MIMechE, CEng
27 April 2004, 11:07 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by Brendan Hughes
In certain countries, I think mainly the Netherlands and Scandanavia, Engineer is a prefix to your title, just like Doctor, Professor etc. Bit odd when you first see it.
27 April 2004, 02:20 PM
#38
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Some companies make it an integral part of the career path. At Rolls Royce (aero engines) you have to sit professional reviews with senior engineers/managers before you can progress to the next grade etc. Becoming chartered is part of the requirement for advancement. If you can't be bothered to become chartered, they won't be bothered to advance you up the grades.
Other countries don't just use the term "doctor" to mean medical doctor. If confers some measure of profession standing. Dr Ing (doctor engineer) is the usual in Germany isn't it BMWhere ?
BIJ B.Eng(Hons) AIMechE
Other countries don't just use the term "doctor" to mean medical doctor. If confers some measure of profession standing. Dr Ing (doctor engineer) is the usual in Germany isn't it BMWhere ?
BIJ B.Eng(Hons) AIMechE
27 April 2004, 02:50 PM
#39
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Yup, lots of engineer Doctors here... generally seems to be an excuse to get paid more and do less than the other engineers! 
Although, as a consultant, I get the title of "Expert" over here which ranks me higher on the money and level of knowledge than the Doctors although I don't get any title for that!
Although, as a consultant, I get the title of "Expert" over here which ranks me higher on the money and level of knowledge than the Doctors although I don't get any title for that!
27 April 2004, 03:04 PM
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Mmm. Maybe I'm sad, but I'm Mungo B.Eng ACGI ACCA AMCT
The engineering degree is totally irrelevant now I'm in Finance. I doubt the IMechE would have me now!
The engineering degree is totally irrelevant now I'm in Finance. I doubt the IMechE would have me now!
27 April 2004, 03:31 PM
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There is another use for the term 'professional' of course. In some cases people do a job 'professionally' that most other people do as a hobby or pastime. For example, a professional D.J. or a professional footballer etc.. They are being paid to do something because they excel at it. Boxing is another example - amateur boxing where there is no money involved and professional boxing where vast amounts of money change hands.
Just another way to look at the term.
Just another way to look at the term.
27 April 2004, 03:37 PM
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Indeed, it can simply mean that someone is paid to do something. Or it can mean that a person takes pride in their work and makes an effort to do a good job, whether that work is actually something that would traditionally be referred to as a profession or not. For example, plumbing isn't strictly a profession, but that doesn't stop a plumber from doing a professional job. (Any plumbers on here BTW? I have a shower that needs fixing...)
27 April 2004, 04:40 PM
#43
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OK, question.
I investigate road accidents and have to prepare expert reports and give evidence before a judge in my capacity as an expert. My expertise comes as a result of 30 years dealing with and investigating thousands of traffic accidents and yet I have no letters after my name.
Professional? After all, there are very few people who can do my job just the same as me being unable to do engineering!
I investigate road accidents and have to prepare expert reports and give evidence before a judge in my capacity as an expert. My expertise comes as a result of 30 years dealing with and investigating thousands of traffic accidents and yet I have no letters after my name.
Professional? After all, there are very few people who can do my job just the same as me being unable to do engineering!
27 April 2004, 04:57 PM
#44
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OK, This should settle it once and for all
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/
Originally Posted by Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary
Definition
profession [Show phonetics]
group noun [C]
1 any type of work which needs special training or a particular skill, often one which is respected because it involves a high level of education:
He left the teaching profession in 1965 to set up his own business.
The report notes that forty per cent of lawyers entering the profession are women.
Teaching as a profession is very underpaid.
He's a doctor by profession.
2 the people who do a type of work, considered as a group:
There's a feeling among the nursing profession that their work is undervalued.
3 the professions jobs which need special training and skill, such as being a doctor or lawyer, but not work in business or industry
professional [Show phonetics]
adjective
1 related to work that needs special training or education:
Chris, you're a nurse, so can I ask your professional opinion on bandaging ankles?
Both doctors have been charged with professional misconduct (= bad or unacceptable behaviour in their work).
Compare amateur.
2 APPROVING having the qualities that you connect with trained and skilled people, such as effectiveness, skill, organization and seriousness of manner:
It would look more professional if the letter was typed.
She always looks very professional in her smart suits.
You've done a very professional job stripping that floor!
3 describes someone who does as a job what people usually do as a hobby:
She's a professional dancer/photographer.
He's a runner who's just turned professional. (= His running used to be a hobby, but now it is his job.)
4 having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training:
Room for rent in shared house - would suit professional person.
a bar full of young professional types in suits
professional [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a person who has the type of job that needs a high level of education and training:
health professionals
Compare amateur.
2 INFORMAL someone who has worked hard in the same type of job for a long time and has become skilled at dealing with any problem that might happen:
I thought the whole meeting was going to fall apart but you rescued it like a true professional!
the consummate professional
3 a person who does as a job what people usually do as a hobby:
He's only been playing football as a professional for two years.
4 a sportsperson, especially a golf or tennis player, who is employed by a club (GROUP) to train its members in a particular sport
professionally [Show phonetics]
adverb
I think next time we need any decorating we'll get it done professionally (= by skilled people).
He started to sing professionally (= for money) after leaving college.
Are you asking for my opinion of him personally or professionally?
professionalism [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
the combination of all the qualities that are connected with trained and skilled people:
He praised her professionalism and dynamism.
profession [Show phonetics]
group noun [C]
1 any type of work which needs special training or a particular skill, often one which is respected because it involves a high level of education:
He left the teaching profession in 1965 to set up his own business.
The report notes that forty per cent of lawyers entering the profession are women.
Teaching as a profession is very underpaid.
He's a doctor by profession.
2 the people who do a type of work, considered as a group:
There's a feeling among the nursing profession that their work is undervalued.
3 the professions jobs which need special training and skill, such as being a doctor or lawyer, but not work in business or industry
professional [Show phonetics]
adjective
1 related to work that needs special training or education:
Chris, you're a nurse, so can I ask your professional opinion on bandaging ankles?
Both doctors have been charged with professional misconduct (= bad or unacceptable behaviour in their work).
Compare amateur.
2 APPROVING having the qualities that you connect with trained and skilled people, such as effectiveness, skill, organization and seriousness of manner:
It would look more professional if the letter was typed.
She always looks very professional in her smart suits.
You've done a very professional job stripping that floor!
3 describes someone who does as a job what people usually do as a hobby:
She's a professional dancer/photographer.
He's a runner who's just turned professional. (= His running used to be a hobby, but now it is his job.)
4 having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training:
Room for rent in shared house - would suit professional person.
a bar full of young professional types in suits
professional [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a person who has the type of job that needs a high level of education and training:
health professionals
Compare amateur.
2 INFORMAL someone who has worked hard in the same type of job for a long time and has become skilled at dealing with any problem that might happen:
I thought the whole meeting was going to fall apart but you rescued it like a true professional!
the consummate professional
3 a person who does as a job what people usually do as a hobby:
He's only been playing football as a professional for two years.
4 a sportsperson, especially a golf or tennis player, who is employed by a club (GROUP) to train its members in a particular sport
professionally [Show phonetics]
adverb
I think next time we need any decorating we'll get it done professionally (= by skilled people).
He started to sing professionally (= for money) after leaving college.
Are you asking for my opinion of him personally or professionally?
professionalism [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
the combination of all the qualities that are connected with trained and skilled people:
He praised her professionalism and dynamism.
Last edited by BMWhere?; 27 April 2004 at 05:02 PM.
29 April 2004, 02:20 PM
#46
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I always thought that if you did any job for which you were paid, then you were considered a professional at that job
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