Iraq prisoners tortured...
30 April 2004, 01:36 PM
#31
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i can understand things happening "in the heat of the moment", but getting a load of people to get naked and climb on top of each other hardly qualifies for that.
for once i completely agree with b2z
for once i completely agree with b2z
30 April 2004, 02:07 PM
#34
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As for those in the prison all being guilty, there have been revenge killings going on in Iraq since. People with personal/family feuds have taken the opportunity, under all the chaos, to sort out their own rifts. Meanwhile the Yanks have been handing out $$$ for information. You think the coalition troops are getting evidence to back up any claims that those grassed up are actually guilty of anything?
30 April 2004, 02:09 PM
#35
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I used to wonder how soldiers could commit atrocities, until I read a book on Vietnam. Just accounts of normal people who got drafted and ended up there.
Some of the things they admitted to were terrible, like having competitions to see how many civilians they could run over in a jeep on any given trip, or randomly shooting them from helicopters.
These people were like you or me, but they were de-humanised by their experience of war to the point where they did not react or behave like normal people.
Years after, when they had been away from the war and been 're-civilised', they recounted their experiences with a sort of detached horror, like it was someone else, they had now returned to their lives as accountants, bartenders etc., never to perpetrate such horrific things again.
I have never been in combat, nor do I hope that I ever will be, but I can imagine that the stresses these people undergo will induce abnormal (and extrememely unpalatable) behaviour in even the most benign of people.
They should be accountable for their actions of course, but do not judge them too harshly from your ivory towers of high moral standards. It's easy to criticise these people from the safety of the UK.
Geezer
Some of the things they admitted to were terrible, like having competitions to see how many civilians they could run over in a jeep on any given trip, or randomly shooting them from helicopters.
These people were like you or me, but they were de-humanised by their experience of war to the point where they did not react or behave like normal people.
Years after, when they had been away from the war and been 're-civilised', they recounted their experiences with a sort of detached horror, like it was someone else, they had now returned to their lives as accountants, bartenders etc., never to perpetrate such horrific things again.
I have never been in combat, nor do I hope that I ever will be, but I can imagine that the stresses these people undergo will induce abnormal (and extrememely unpalatable) behaviour in even the most benign of people.
They should be accountable for their actions of course, but do not judge them too harshly from your ivory towers of high moral standards. It's easy to criticise these people from the safety of the UK.
Geezer
Last edited by Geezer; 30 April 2004 at 02:12 PM.
30 April 2004, 03:14 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by Brendan Hughes
Stefan - sounds like you've been sitting in on Bush's Presidential Daily Briefings then? 
Stefan
30 April 2004, 03:30 PM
#37
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I'm certainly not going to condone the behaviour of these soldiers, but as mentioned before, combat stress does funny things to some people, especially if they've had colleagues killed.
Also, a problem with the US Army (esp. Infantry) is that it contains many people that have joined the army because they are virtually unemployable elsewhere. They are often poorly educated and in some cases, have an extremely low IQ. This doesn't make any wrong doings right, but it means the NCO's and officers have an added responsibility to supervise and watch over their troops to ensure this kind of thing cannot happen.
As a warning to the rest of the US forces the soldiers actually involved should be punished to the maximum extent, ultimately getting thrown out of the forces.
The officers and NCO's responsible for these soldiers should also be very harshly punished, as a further warning to their peers throughout the US forces.
Also, a problem with the US Army (esp. Infantry) is that it contains many people that have joined the army because they are virtually unemployable elsewhere. They are often poorly educated and in some cases, have an extremely low IQ. This doesn't make any wrong doings right, but it means the NCO's and officers have an added responsibility to supervise and watch over their troops to ensure this kind of thing cannot happen.
As a warning to the rest of the US forces the soldiers actually involved should be punished to the maximum extent, ultimately getting thrown out of the forces.
The officers and NCO's responsible for these soldiers should also be very harshly punished, as a further warning to their peers throughout the US forces.
30 April 2004, 03:36 PM
#38
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Geezer, I understand what you say but do you really believe these military personnel experienced anything close to what happened in Vietnam? How many have actually seen any combat while in Iraq? Modern American warfare is nothing more than bombing the crap out of a place from afar, then sending in ground troops once everything is smouldering.
Also, they are not drafted troops who have been given a few weeks training and flown into a war zone.
Also, they are not drafted troops who have been given a few weeks training and flown into a war zone.
30 April 2004, 03:46 PM
#39
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I'm certainly not going to condone the behaviour of these soldiers, but as mentioned before, combat stress does funny things to some people, especially if they've had colleagues killed.
30 April 2004, 03:58 PM
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No, I'm sure the experience in Iraq is nowhere near as bad as it was in Vietnam, but then again, taking pictures of POWs in the nude of having fake torture is nowhere near as bad as shooting civilians or torching whole villages. I was just trying to illustrate that these are people who are not in everyday situations, they are thousands of miles from home, with the threat of violence hanging over them, it's not surprising that a small element go too far, plenty of allied soldiers did in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Egypt and I'm sure they will in future conflicts. War crimes are not the preserve of the bad guys!!! Sad, but true.
Geezer
Geezer
30 April 2004, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by +Doc+
So the same could be said for the Iraqi people, if they have been brainwashed into hating the US / Uk and they see needless deaths around them in their worn torn city would this not send them over the edge? There cant be one and one rule for another?
30 April 2004, 04:33 PM
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I've been looking at the forum on thr CBS website (it was the 60 Minutes II programme which broke the story). In fairness to the yanks about 75-80% of those who posted are completely horrified at the pictures. Many of those who posted were current or ex-servicemen who had seen active duty, most of whom said those concerned dishonoured the US and should be prosecuted. Basically there is no excuse for not treating prisoners humanely and in accordance with the Geneva Convention. All US military personnel, regulars or national guard are taught about the Geneva Convention, so there is no excuse.
The other 20% of posters to that forum criticised the broadcasting of the footage saying it would only put US troops in greater peril. But without making such things public, would there be any change? I doubt it.
The other 20% of posters to that forum criticised the broadcasting of the footage saying it would only put US troops in greater peril. But without making such things public, would there be any change? I doubt it.
30 April 2004, 05:10 PM
#43
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The main point here is that irrespective of the personal feelings of the Soldiers involved, we are in Iraq in order to bring about regime change and Democracy. We are there because the Bush administration think that the Iraqis are/were an uncivilised nation. (They happen to feel this about most other Middle East countries too.)
So with that in mind we cannot just say 'it's ok for our soldiers to do this, as that is what they do to us'. We are there to change their ways - and bring so called Western standards to their lives. We must therefore follow the conventions that we are vowed to stand by. There is no excuse for this behaviour.
So with that in mind we cannot just say 'it's ok for our soldiers to do this, as that is what they do to us'. We are there to change their ways - and bring so called Western standards to their lives. We must therefore follow the conventions that we are vowed to stand by. There is no excuse for this behaviour.
30 April 2004, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dtriggs
The main point here is that irrespective of the personal feelings of the Soldiers involved, we are in Iraq in order to bring about regime change and Democracy. We are there because the Bush administration think that the Iraqis are/were an uncivilised nation. (They happen to feel this about most other Middle East countries too.)
So with that in mind we cannot just say 'it's ok for our soldiers to do this, as that is what they do to us'. We are there to change their ways - and bring so called Western standards to their lives. We must therefore follow the conventions that we are vowed to stand by. There is no excuse for this behaviour.
So with that in mind we cannot just say 'it's ok for our soldiers to do this, as that is what they do to us'. We are there to change their ways - and bring so called Western standards to their lives. We must therefore follow the conventions that we are vowed to stand by. There is no excuse for this behaviour.
You loosers!
30 April 2004, 05:27 PM
#47
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You muppet 
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth but can apply to you as well. They are acting internationally and not on home soil. They are at war and are bound by the terms of the Geneva Convention which they signed and have to abide by. Simple, or you think they can just flout international law because a few mindless idiots thinks its find to do so?
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth but can apply to you as well. They are acting internationally and not on home soil. They are at war and are bound by the terms of the Geneva Convention which they signed and have to abide by. Simple, or you think they can just flout international law because a few mindless idiots thinks its find to do so?
Last edited by Bravo2zero_sps; 30 April 2004 at 05:30 PM.
30 April 2004, 05:39 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by **************
You muppet
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth
Can you believe Michael Jackson's kiddie fiddling escapade was the top story on the news here this morning?!Hearts and minds.
30 April 2004, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by **************
You muppet
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth but can apply to you as well. They are acting internationally and not on home soil. They are at war and are bound by the terms of the Geneva Convention which they signed and have to abide by. Simple, or you think they can just flout international law because a few mindless idiots thinks its find to do so?
Oh and that was aimed at Gareth but can apply to you as well. They are acting internationally and not on home soil. They are at war and are bound by the terms of the Geneva Convention which they signed and have to abide by. Simple, or you think they can just flout international law because a few mindless idiots thinks its find to do so?
30 April 2004, 05:51 PM
#50
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Yes, and the internal combustion engine of your car was designed in 1906.
Last Geneva Convention was 1946 or 47.
They mainly need to be re-written to take into account non-international armed conflicts, FYI.
We have an International Criminal Court as of last year, to interpret war crimes (IIRC) and crimes against humanity - but the US haven't signed up to it. You know why? They claim that they take part in so many peace-keeping operations around the world, that their soldiers will be subject to false politically motivated claims.
Last Geneva Convention was 1946 or 47.
They mainly need to be re-written to take into account non-international armed conflicts, FYI.
We have an International Criminal Court as of last year, to interpret war crimes (IIRC) and crimes against humanity - but the US haven't signed up to it. You know why? They claim that they take part in so many peace-keeping operations around the world, that their soldiers will be subject to false politically motivated claims.
30 April 2004, 06:04 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by V45DSM
Whats the point of a set of bull**** rules if you're the only one who follows them?
We're supposed to be the good guys, remember? Get rid of the bad guys, not dig down to their level.
30 April 2004, 06:23 PM
#52
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So an Iraqi had wires attached to his nuts / had 'rude' words written on him etc. I know that those idiots have done more damage than they could've imagined but it just seems odd to me, that people criticise and stand on their self-righteous pedestal here, without ever knowing what it may be like to be in their shoes. Those Yanks have been out there for well over a year now, constantly 'fighting' an 'enemy' who have absolutely no respect for human-life.
It's all well and good to say that "They should comply with the Geneva convention, that's how they're trained......" etc, but at the end of the day, perhaps these Iraqis had been responsible for the deaths of a few of their colleagues and can you honestly say that you would comply with it then.
...I just wish as much fuss was being made over bringing to justice the scum who murdered six of our guys in Majar el-Kabir..
It's all well and good to say that "They should comply with the Geneva convention, that's how they're trained......" etc, but at the end of the day, perhaps these Iraqis had been responsible for the deaths of a few of their colleagues and can you honestly say that you would comply with it then.
...I just wish as much fuss was being made over bringing to justice the scum who murdered six of our guys in Majar el-Kabir..
30 April 2004, 06:32 PM
#53
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Taff
The whole point of the US/UK invasion was to stop a murderous regime from doing exacly this sort of thing to its citizens. So if our representatives over there do perpetuate the state-sponsored repression, exactly why did we invade?
'Cos it sure as heck wasn't for WMDs .......
The whole point of the US/UK invasion was to stop a murderous regime from doing exacly this sort of thing to its citizens. So if our representatives over there do perpetuate the state-sponsored repression, exactly why did we invade?
'Cos it sure as heck wasn't for WMDs .......
30 April 2004, 06:38 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Geezer
No, I'm sure the experience in Iraq is nowhere near as bad as it was in Vietnam, but then again, taking pictures of POWs in the nude of having fake torture is nowhere near as bad as shooting civilians or torching whole villages. I was just trying to illustrate that these are people who are not in everyday situations, they are thousands of miles from home, with the threat of violence hanging over them, it's not surprising that a small element go too far, plenty of allied soldiers did in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Egypt and I'm sure they will in future conflicts. War crimes are not the preserve of the bad guys!!! Sad, but true.
Geezer
Geezer
30 April 2004, 06:38 PM
#55
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just watched the video...hardly The Deer Hunter is it!
if i was taken POW and the worst that happened was a bit of naked twister i'd think i got off lightly!
it may be wrong but get a grip people.....check any "scum scratched my car post" on here...you all call for public beatings for 12 year olds with a love of bonnet scoops- yet you dont like these ppl (who's job was to kill our ppl) getting some oranks played on them.
T
if i was taken POW and the worst that happened was a bit of naked twister i'd think i got off lightly!
it may be wrong but get a grip people.....check any "scum scratched my car post" on here...you all call for public beatings for 12 year olds with a love of bonnet scoops- yet you dont like these ppl (who's job was to kill our ppl) getting some oranks played on them.
T
30 April 2004, 06:39 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by V45DSM
Whats the point of a set of bull**** rules if you're the only one who follows them?
30 April 2004, 06:46 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by Tiggs
yet you dont like these ppl (who's job was to kill our ppl) getting some oranks played on them.
T
T
2) These people were in their own frigging country
3) Oranks??? I bet you'd like it if it was done to you.
You're in their ******* country for ***** sake telling them how they should live and who should rule them. Who gave you the right to play God?
30 April 2004, 07:07 PM
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gsm1,
exactly!!
How many of these "prisoners" have been charged, or tried, or convicted (and have any appeals been requested/accepted)?
Sounds rather like Guantanamo Bay, which, co-incidentally, is being run by the, er, US!!!!!! No pictures of the abuses there, so far, yet - but the evidence will appear!
What a pathetic and disgusting situation Bush has got himself into
mb
exactly!!
How many of these "prisoners" have been charged, or tried, or convicted (and have any appeals been requested/accepted)?
Sounds rather like Guantanamo Bay, which, co-incidentally, is being run by the, er, US!!!!!! No pictures of the abuses there, so far, yet - but the evidence will appear!
What a pathetic and disgusting situation Bush has got himself into
mb