imlach

I'll be the first to admit that public transport in the UK leaves a lot to be desired, but to be fair for a moment, up here in Edinburgh, it is not quite as you say. It's too easy to criticise it with the usual labels of "slow, dirty, unreliable" etc...

However, in Edinburgh :

- slow? No, the buses should in theory be quicker than cars as have their own lanes. If only we didn't have bus-stops, they'd be even quicker. The only reason it seems slow is that it doesn't go EXACTLY from point A to point B that you may want to go. However, with even the BEST public transport system in the world, I can guarantee they can't cover all point A's or Point B's - it requires a culture shift to accept a bit of compromise. Also, during rush hour, I can get to my work QUICKER on the train than by car (that includes getting from my house to the train station, and train station to work).

- dirty? What exactly do you mean by this? The trains & buses up here are perfectly clean, aside from a little bit of litter dropped by the lazy. The rail companies pick up the litter on the trains after each journey, so I think "dirty" seems unjustified.


- expensive? An average car costs 30p/mile to run. My work is a 25 mile round trip, which means £7.50/day. The train is £3. Even in petrol alone, that 25 mile trip is more than £3 assuming 30mpg (urban run). So, the cost argument doesn't even win there.

- unreliable? On the whole, the majority of days seem to be perfectly reliable up here. Trains slightly worse than the buses. OK, a bus may run a few minutes late, but could be down to factors outwith their control (ie, jams, holdups, etc)

Public transport requires a culture shift which I don't think a lot of people in the UK are prepared to shift to. They're too used to their cars.

It's all to easy to say "I'd use public transport if it was better", and that's true for many, but some are just too darned lazy.

FFS, a guy at my work has a bus stop about 1 minutes walk from his house which is on a direct route to our work which then requires a 1 minute walk from there to the front door of work....the bus probably adds about 5 mins to the journey time (if that). He said he would only be persuaded onto the bus if it dropped him at the front door of work....FFS!!! See....an example of someone who is just NEVER going to use it even if it WAS the perfect system.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Must admit Edinburgh does have pretty good buses . Unfortunately you can't quote that for the rest of the country.

The West Mids does finally have some new double deckers on the main routes...unfortunately they seem to break down more than the old 1976 (yes, '76 as in P reg)registered buses. Probably due to the driver playing with the air suspension...

sat in traffic...
[homer] Bus goes up, bus goes down, bus goes up, bus goes down...etc [/homer]

They are dirty, the trains are even worse. But as we all well know, it's down to the filthy public making them get in such a state, with the kids and vandels responsible for graffitti and scratched glass.

As for convienence, I like a nice brisk walk. The nearest bus stop is 10mins away. Problem is, it's a circular which is going away from the bus station and thus takes 30mins to get there (It takes 45mins to walk to the bus station). I can get off at a stop and catch another bus. But in order to go to say Birmingham or Wolverhapton, I will need to change 3 times before I start my journery. It's my problem, I know not everyone has this. But I am definetly not unique in this circumstance

Expensive? Well compared to the UK's already massively inflated pricing on pretty much everything, yes it is. The bus is cheaper than car, train depends if you share (2 in car sharing fuel beats the train on price - disregarding service costs and tax as I would still have to own and run the car if I used it or not).

But when you compare to other countries where they have such an advanced infrastructure and a train costs less to travel on than a bus in the UK I really do question the term "cheap" when it refers to UK public transport. Ok, there are many reasons for this from high minimum wages, high living costs, property prices. But the bottom line is we, as nation are paying more for less.

Riprock

From what i`ve seen of the edinburgh bus service,im impressed.I worked up there a couple of years ago and was staying in some digs on Corstorphine road (right near the zoo.....didnt even know the zoo was there....wondered why at night i could hear elephants and lions.....thought someone had there tele on VERY loud ).And i must admit shame amonst shame....i used the bus to travel into the centre .

But it was a no-brainer for me..........bus stop was 80 yards away.......bus stopped in the town centre litrally 50 yards from the job i was on,bus lanes go all the way down the road so you fly there.Choice with the car would have been park about 1 and half mile away (so 15-20 min walk) and pay 5 quid for the privilege.

The thing about edinburgh is that they have embraced public transport and are serious about making it work.....i NEVER waited more than 3 mins for the bus and paid (i think it was) about £2.50 for a day ticket go anywhere.Bus lanes travelled ALL the way up the road,unlike most citys who do small sections here and there which are no use to anyone......record bus lane length ive seen is an amazing 20 yard section of road marked bus lane....nothing before it and nothing after it .

But edinburgh is the exception rather than the rule....a lot of places make token attempts and unless you want to go into city centre at peak times your in trouble.Want to travel anywhere on the other side of town can lead to 2 or 3 bus journey lasting 1 to 2 hours......for the sake of about 15 miles.I know...ive done it.And after 6 o`clock at night a bus every half hour quite frankly just aint good enough .Cos of privatization which bus operator in there right mind is gonna offer buses after 6 that dont go into town centres and run every 10 mins....not many .For all its faults it would be better suited to be run council funded at a loss.As a private company the bottom line is $$$$ and if a route aint making em.....the route has to go.

imlach

Totally agree with you RipRock.

Edinburgh probably is the exception to the rule.

...and yes, I do think public transport should be public funded. Privatisation did not work for the consumer in terms of non-profit making services as you state.

imlach

FYI, apparently if you compare the whole fleet, Lothian Buses (one of Edinburgh's bus operators) has the lowest fleet age in the whole of the UK - ie, lots & lots of new buses.

Even although it is a private company, it is still owned mainly by Edinburgh City Council (can't remember the %-age).

Riprock

WOOHOO!!!....some common ground .....i remember when they went private in 1986/87 ...my last year in school.Thought it was great at first.Little buses every 6 mins flying all over the place...great stuff......6 months down the line...CARNAGE .Companys dropping like flys services changing ever other week/disappearing.Took YEARS to settle down....result?.....HUNDREDS of buses fighting for the rush hour customers in the morning and at night all going to the city centre.All other times,like a grave yard.There all chaseing the same custom.

Remember thinking at the time that such a thing would happen....despite all the assurances that it wouldnt and special rules would be in place to prevent companys stopping less profitable routes blah blah etc......all turned out to be a load of old bo**ocks

imlach

Yeah, Edinburgh suffered a bit from privatisation in terms of a small scale bus war, but somehow LRT (now Lothian Buses) managed to survive it all, with little effect on off-peak and unpopular services. Most of the city is still pretty well served 24/7.

...and it's still £2.50 for a day ticket for unlimited travel, or just £2 if you buy it after 0930
..and only £1/day if you buy a month's buspass.....

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

How true, I remember when there was a bus stop 5 mins down the road, in the right direction that ran every 10 minutes.

How things have changed

You can't trust a private company to run a public service without falling foul to corperate greed and penny pinchers. I'm sure the government doesn't help much by taxing them to death either.

However it makes me wonder. If everybody stopped using their cars and used public transport instead, the government would be well and truely screwed by the loss in income from fuel taxation. It's a pity it would never happen as nobody would do it and the buses and train would never be able to cope anyway.

Riprock

Must admit.....enjoyed my time working there.Lovely city centre.Astoundingly NEVER went to the castle in all my time there .Dont miss that damn canon at 1 o`clock though....laugh a minute when your working in a LIVE distrubution board and that bas*ard goes off!!!! .Spent about 6 months in total over 2 years in various stints.Got to know it quite well .

AAAAAnywho...time for bo bo`s.It`s been an.....................................Interesting discussion .Guess we can agree that pubic transport IS viable(providing it adaquately funded) but only under certain circumstances.

That currys gonna come back to haunt me.....i can feel it

Riprock

Hey i just noticed....99 post..what the hell....TON UP!!!!!


EDIT:-

DOH!!!!!....reading wrong number.......#100 in this thread .Done 93...screw that not doing 7 inane posts just to get to 100."NOT STOPPED YOU DOING 93 BEFORE HAS IT!!!!" came the cry...but i beat you to it

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Bag it....store it...and convert your car to run off it

.......If only I had a cesspit

imlach

Glad you enjoyed the city. It is lovely. You'd be surprised to learn that Edinburgh people are still arguing over our public transport system, so perhaps they need to see how far ahead they are compared to the rest of the UK!

Out of interest, can you tell me which buildings you were working on so I know not to touch the light switches in them

Riprock

OHHHH a memory test eh ...here goes...one was on george street ..54 i think near a lttle DIY shop,think the building was eventually taken by some insurance company.The other job i did was opposite the burger king (princess street) on a little office block.I can never remember the damn names of most of the places i work.....shocking really.You see that many they all sort of meld into one .

I also did one that was out of the centre near the M errrrrrrrr M50? big white set of buildings you can see just before the roundabout that leads to Corstorphine road.Hows that for vague .Always stayed at the same digs near the Zoo though....had my tea at the oak at night....the one next to the poncey looking place,you know...opposite the dominos pizza

matty01

Just for anyone who thinks it's the UK gov. who's putting the prices up,it's not,it's the world crude oil price that has risen.

Riprock

hehe matty........that looks suspicously like a post from someone who hasnt read all the bo**ocks that came before!!!! .....naughty boy...start from the front page this instant

imlach

Hmm.....I'll use my local knowledge to guess....

54 George St near a DIY shop? Hmm....was the DIY shop called Grays? Sold hardware type goods?

Burger King is on corner of Castle St. The roads between George St & Princes St run in alphabetical order from West to East....namely, Castle St, Frederick St, Hanover St.

The big white buildings would have been near the M8. Buildings would have been at Edinburgh Park, and/or The Gyle?

Yes, know where the Oak is in Costorphine. You'll find most of the tradesmen I use in either that pub or the one opposite down a lane....

matty01

...err,ok i put my hands up,

Riprock

Hey you been following me ...think you guessed them all right!! Buger king has like an old wooden frontage and sort of borders princess street/castle street.M8 is right .....M50 is glasgee innit .And you are correct its the GYLE.Cant remember if they where called Grays.....but it was over 2 floors and yes they sold hardware stylee goods.

The pub down the lane from the oak.....was that winstons or something?

imlach

Yes, Burger King has the wooden frontage - used to be a Wimpy!

Yep, and Winstons it is! 20 Kirk Loan :
http://uke.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?pc=EH12+7HD

*Sonic*

good, cos thats where I am working on monday , oh and im driving up there in my scoob, as public transport to actually get there, is cr@p

imlach

Guess it depends on where you are coming from. From a rail viewpoint, Edinburgh is well served by the West Coast mainline, and the East Coast mainline. By air, we're well served by London, East Midlands, Bristol, etc.

The worst link is perhaps the roads No motorway all the way from the South to Edinburgh....either up the M6/M74 and then the A701 (no gatsos IIRC, but frequent radar, so watch out!) or on the East, up the A1(M) which rapidly becomes the A1

If in the Scoob however, the A68 or A7 is your preferred route for fun, although spoiled by all the speed cameras.

*Sonic*

CHeers for the info

done the route a few times before, I am however driving up monday morning (so a very early start ) Trains would take just as long as in the car, and cost far more, and I would have to change 3 or 4 times, and flights are stupid prices, I can go to Las Vegas for 5 nights including hotel, flight & taxes cheaper than it costs to fly to Edingburgh & back !!

Adrian F

I thought freedom of movement was a basic Human right? And therefore taxing any means of transport more than is needed to maintain its infrastructure is an attack on a human right!


If pollution was the problem then the government would be offering incentives to buy new cars to replace old cars as modern ones produce lots less pollution. also buses and trains are very inefficient in time which is a resource e.g. lots of waiting and they spend most journeys with less than 50% of passengers in them and they all produce pollution and require vast subsidies either direct or hidden to operate.

I have worked with teams drawing up anti car policies for a local authority and they will admit that pollution is a short term problem which is already being addressed by the car manufactures but they are using it to force people out of their cars before zero emission vehicles become widely available as then it will be much more difficult to get people give up cars.

Finally to those who criticize car users then lead by example and use no polluting (E.G. planes trains buses) transport all the time. lead by example and when you have proved to us how we can shop work and socialise with out a great cost to ourselves in time and money we will follow, then again maybe you ideas are a flawed as most people have found and you will leave us alone.

Adrian F

While I remember isn't petrol 75% tax and most of that doesn't go into roads but to pay for the welfare state.

Last time when oil prices went up too high in some American states they reduced the level of tax to easy the burden on the citizen!

And even Blair admitted that petrol is a necessity in our society because at the petrol protests he got all upset when supplies were blockaded saying how petrol was an essential item yet he still allows it to be tax by 75%? Would use the army to ensure supplies etc.

How can you tax an essential item by that amount? Might as well put it 75% tax on food as well.

misty

Still musn't grumble eh? At least we've got our health I'll just have to put my rates up too!!
dave

Brit_in_Japan

My 2p....

There has over the last 40 odd years been an expectation of large volumes of low cost fuel (with the '70's oil crisis seen as a blip). As a result the economies of countries and lives of individuals have become tuned to rely of cheap fuel. Oil is a non-renewable finite resource used by many industries. There will come a time when oil will be
1) no longer in plentiful supply
2) expensive

Then we will appreciate the true value of oil. So maybe petrol in the UK has risen to >80p/litre. But it's real value ultimately is not in burning it to produce energy (we can generate energy by other means). Oil's real value is as raw material to idustries such that produce plastics, synthetic materials, contruction (tars, bitumen), pharmaceuticals, fertilizers etc, for which there are no equivalent raw materials ready to take oil's place.

Petrol in the UK is still cheaper than bottled water. Does that sound right given the effort it takes to search, extract, transport, refine, transport again and make a profit on every litre ?

Some maybe interesting facts:
- Oil use is still increasing at about 3-4% a year (economic growth in western countries and the developing industrial powerhouse of China)
- Discoveries of new oil reserves have reduced to a trickle, we are using more than we are finding with the date of exhausted oil supplies is calculated at 2040 - 2050 (in the lifetime of most on this forum)
- If economic growth accelerates, and the economic policy of every country of the world seems to be focused on growth, this "exhaustion" date becomes nearer

There is a big challenge to be faced in the next 30 odd years regards energy. What do we do when there are not large volumes of cheap oil available ? High petrol costs would be a wake up call for individuals and governemts alike and would start to focus people's minds on the future.

...and before people ask, yes I drive a scoob and yes I do make uneccesary journeys in it, but at least I have the sense to feel guilty

fatherpierre

How much is petrol in Japan?

Brit_in_Japan

Petrol is cheaper, but overall motoring costs are more expensive.

Currently 100 octane fuel is approximately 110 yen/litre. Current exchange rate is about 195 yen:1 pound, so currently it works out around 56.4 p/litre. The exchange rate has varied between about 183 and 205 yen/pound in the last 12 months, so that would make the range 53.7 - 60.1p/litre. I expect fuel prices will increase here too, and because the tax is less the % increase will actually be greater.

It was Golden Week here last week, basically a week holiday for everyone. I did some travelling, often driving on the expressways which are toll roads. The toll fees exceeded my fuel costs, so the cost of driving is definitely greater than the UK.

Also car tax and shaken (Japanese MOT) will probably cost you around 350 quid. And I pay around 800 quid a year insurance because the cheap b@stards would only offer me 10% off my insurance due to my full no claims in the UK.

damian666

Wait a gosh darned minute!

(Pretend I am my wife )
I drive a car that gets me 40-50 mpg around town. £25 in, 310miles out. I need to drive to work, as there are no bus routes that go to where I work (sutton-epsom) at the times my work finishes (12pm-2am sometimes) Therefore, I have to drive. Its only about 15 miles a day, so its costing me about £1.50 (max!!) a day. Last year, it would have cost me about £1.30 to £1.40 a day. Over the year therefore, I am spending approx £30 more on fuel. Admittedly, this isnt a huge sum. However, it gets increasingly more expensive just to get to work.
(Wife mode off!)

The fact that my wife has to pay more for her petrol gets on my nadgers. I dont mind a 3p increase a litre now and again (once a year??) but going from 74.9 in my local petrol station to 82.9 is a joke. This is in the last year!

In all honesty, if Iraq was for oil - where is it?!

Damo

gsm1

Iraq was to ensure big bucks for Bush's mates (and some more). You think the oil companies are like Robin Hood?