Jye

I heard that Shell have developed a new lighter in weight (dunno how they manage that!) fuel for the Ferrari 053 engine. This means less fuel for a set number of laps and a lighter overall car with all the benefits for Ferrari.

RoadrunnerV2

Qualifing should be done on the PS2 - that way the drivers can take the car to the extreme edge Does the PS2 have a force feedback wheel ....hmmm

Bitten Hero - How are they going to tackle the lack of overtaking?

RoadrunnerV2

I heard that too about the shell fuel

I hope they going to standardise the tyre - Bridgestone for dry and Michelin for wets

Faire D'Income

Having spent years defending F1 from various accusations of it being boring I now have to agree with friends and family who used to roast me for watching it regularly.

Whilst I have to admire the way that Rory Byrne/Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher have set up the Ferrari domination, its the cynical way they go about it that has resulted in the sports decline and ultimately leads to these accusations. Look at Eddie Irvine a couple of years ago and last year's tyre fiasco when Ferrari started to struggle and you can easily see why the cynics start to see conspiracy everywhere.

There is no doubt that Schumacher is a brilliant driver and ultimately the most successfull but until he allows his team mate to compete on a equal basis then he is flawed. That is what gets my goat more than anything else and leads to it being labelled boring because you just know that Barrichello is not going to challenge Schumacher unless Ferrari want to rig the result.

If you want close racing then its very easy to set up. Ban all forms of electronic aids, reduce tyre widths and massively reduce the size of the front and rear wings alongside steel rotors and you'll have proper racing again. Needless to say, this isn't going to happen collectively - just think of the reduction in sponsor's branding with smaller wings.

mattstant

Hmm thats interesting doesnt stop you "commenting" and trotting out interminable tripe about football that you have regurgitate from the tabloids.
A sport which you admittedly neither like nor care about.

As a twenty year season ticket holder You will also definitley have bow to my "Superior knowledge and intellect on this subject"

The phrase "hoist by your own petard" springs to mind as well

I have to agree with the general consensus on GP in this thread though.

I remember many races when Nicky lauda would run away with it and lap everyone but there was always some cracking duels down the running order to entertain.
This was when cars didnt need a large power advantage to escape the slip stream and when breaking for a corner side by side without abs would bring up puffs of smoke when the one with the biggest ***** would get through.

the cars now are so damned capable now that anyone straying off the perfect racing line hasnt got a hope of overtaking unless the other car has a sick engine or the driver makes a serious error of judgement.

tiggers

No as I said opinions are valid if they're informed opinions. If you watch the occasional half race and form your opinion from the sensationalist jingoistic British media then that is not an informed opinion so I will criticise it. If you are not able to go to the races live, but follow the sport avidly and watch it from the comfort of your armchair I have no problem with that. As for the snobbery comment I can only ascertain that you must mean intellectual snobbery and seeing as you seem only to happy to tell me how I think then surely you are as guilty as I.

If you had watched the post race press conference you would have seen/heard Schumacher explaining that he made some minor adjustment in the cockpit and then tried to drive round the problem as much as possible as that was all he could do. The 'reprogramming of the ecu' is no longer possible as pit to car telemetry is banned - see what I mean about informed opinion.

Finally it is obvious to anyone who follows the sport that the electronic aids are the least of the sport's problems. The three biggest issues are ever increasing budgets further dividing the large teams from the small, the continual sanitisation of the tracks following Senna's death in 1994 and most importantly of all the reliance on aero grip rather than mechanical grip as this causes masses amounts of 'dirty air' behind a car and makes passing nigh on impossible. The FIA are working on ways to combat some of these, but the aero vs mechanical grip still seems to be eluding them - bring back slick tyres, remove rear diffusers, reduce wing sizes and you'll start to get racing again I promise you.

Hope this helps,

tiggers.

tiggers

What are you on about? I never regurgitate anything from the tabloids about football as they love it and I hate it. Aside from that I don't read them anyway, mainly because they're full of football.

The only comments I ever make on football are to question why those that have to post about it on here (like they don't get enough information about it in the pub and from reading The Sun ) have to continually do so in the wrong forum.

I wouldn't dream of trying to discuss Britain's national sport with anyone as I don't know much about it and nor do I want to and as such I'm more than happy to bow to your 20 year season ticket knowledge or whatever it is.

tiggers.

Re-Bitten Hero

Well said tiggers, an informed post .

The FIA are proposing slicks, with much thinner tyres at the front, for 2008 (or sooner) and reduced downforce from standardised wings, and therefore it will be less stable into corners and be easier to overtake.


One thing - why do people insist on removing all electronics and everything that is the highest technology? If you want this, watch F3000 - they have 500+bhp engines with no special electronics, but nobody goes on about how much better this is than F1?


Also it's worth noting that the Moto GP bikes have traction control to limit how they put the power down - did you know that?

Richard

r32

Wow, what a hornets nest, good to see so many different views.
I'm, not a particular MS fan but I do have to admit that this guy is good, there is no one currently on the same planet. Read some of the books and articles on him and get a more informed view of this guys amazing abilities.
Me I'm a Senna fan, what would it have been like with those two racing against each other?
Whilst I think that the unfortunate wheel incident with Rubens may set some wondering I would hope that the integrity of the Ferrari management would not allow them to let Michael win in that way. Had Rubens been in front they would have just told him to let Micheal pass, which is very unlikely for two reasons, one its too early in the season and two, Michael is so far ahead on points it wouldnt make any difference.

As far as banning various electronics etc, the good thing about racing (or rallying) is that some of its technologies do drift down to production cars. Improvements in brake material, tyre technology, aerodynamics etc etc, do we want to have more technology on road cars than racing cars? Where will the old adage of "racing improves the breed" go?

Playing with the sports future methinks, they cannot afford to get it wrong.
STEVE...............

mart360

R - B - H

yes i was serious with some of my comments...

if i want to watch cars going round a track without overtaking i will nip down to my nearest track and watch a weekend of amateur clubs carrying out time trials..... oh hang on though... they overtake....!!!!

the purpose of my comments was not to rubbish Schuey.. but to question could he do as well as Mansell when in his position.... i seem to remeber the critics then stated that it was all down to the mclarren engines and teams..

Mansell blew them away by going to indy and winning on his rookie season...

re mansell and senna when they raced at monaco...... i cant remember the last race like that !!!!

re my other comments...


rumble strips...

why not.... all it does at the mo is soften/ widen the corners making the track noting but some flowing bends.... if as you say they are so harsh... why do the drivers use them as a track extension.... and as you quote" if it was grass go over it....." then kitty litter is the answer.

time penalty for the leader.....


ok prehaps a bit harsh but it would allow the pack to bunch....and stop the one make series from happening...


black flag for not over taking.... why not the whole purpose is its a race... ie trying to get to the front and winning...

i like racing like the rest, but have to question what is F1 at the mo....

its akin to 20 cars on a scalextric track and all playing follow my leader...

re f3 dam good series .. at least there prepared to tussle!!!!




Mart

Faire D'Income

Because driver aids such as launch control and traction control detract from the overall skill of the driver and can lead to false situations such Benetton/Renault in the past, although they couldn't possibly be using another form of launch control could they? ;

In order to create more exciting racing, there has got to be an element of dumbing down not only with regard to engines, aeros and tyres but also in the electronics area. As for F3000, is it even televised?

Re-Bitten Hero

mart - it was only one or two I thought you weren't being serious about .

In principle I agree with what people are saying - even I find many of these races boring now and I'm a hardened F1 fan! F3000 isn't on much - maybe Eurosport or ITV's afternoon of motorsport sometimes? I'm in Germany now so I'm not sure what it's like in the UK for that...

Fairy - I agree but if you want a purely driver's championship, look at something like Renault Clio cup. The whole point of F1 is that you can use other methods to make the whole driver/car package the best. The trouble is quite simply that there is too much money floating around now.

Brit_in_Japan

In the words of a well know sportsman, you cannot be serious

I don't think you have understood the points being made about aerodynamic grip vs mechnical grip. All the drivers out there would overtake given half a chance, but the fact is right now that there is such a penalty following another car closely through medium/high speed corners (i.e. dirty air, not enough downforce, not sufficient grip to corner at the same speed) then it becomes impossible to mount an overtaking manouvre.

Re-Bitten Hero

Interesting article on www.grandprix.com:

----------------------
Did Ferrari play games with Rubens's pit stop?
Rubens Barrichello's second pit stop in Barcelona was a bit of a mess and there were some who wondered whether given the strategies of the two Ferrari drivers whether or not Michael Schumacher might have received a little help from the team from the fumbling with tyres. Barrichello was obviously a little unhappy after the race, saying that he he was called in by the team one minute and 20 seconds before the stop and so there was no reason why things should have gone wrong. When there was a similar problem a few years ago the team introduced a system to try to make sure that similar problems would not happen again and after the race Ross Brawn did admit that the team had "cocked up".

It is a nice conspiracy theory to think that Ferrari delayed Rubens to help Michael to win but the facts do not bear it out. Before the final stops the two Ferraris were circulating around five seconds apart for several laps. There was little progress beinmg made until Rubens made an effort on his final full lap and reduced the gap to 4.8secs. His IN lap was a 1m21.642s. He spent 27.1s in pitlane and this meant that his OUT lap (which includes the pitlane time) was a 1m43,744s. Schumacher then came into the pits for his third and final stop. His IN lap was a 1m20.844s, which was six-tenths faster than Barrichello's. Michael was in pitlane for 23.8s (which was 3.3secs less than Barrichello) and that gave him an OUT lap of 1m40.133s. If one take out the 3.3s lost with the problem, Rubens was still three-tenths slower than Schumacher and so when that is added to the six-tenths from his IN lap we can see that Michael made nearly a second on Rubens on the track. Barrichello lost the 3.3s because of the problem but it would not have made any difference because when they were both up to speed again Michael was 10.6secs ahead.

One can argue that this took pressure off Michael but it was not a big deal given that Rubens would have been nearly six seconds behind Michael without the problem.

Sorry, no conspiracy...
----------------

Mark Miwurdz

Sounds like Kwik-Fit........

the moose

Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the fact that the racing's less interesting, but I no longer really look forward to a Grand Prix. If I'm about I'll watch the start, but that's as far as it goes, unless there's absolutely nowt else to do.

There's an inherent problem, in that sponsors want to see their car/driver winning; increase the uncertainty and you automatically reduce the sponsorship income.

I'd love to see drivers with way too much power for their tyres to cope with, with higher straightline speed and slower cornering, but the fact remains that Schumacher would almost certainly be winning anyway, as he's by far the best driver. It's not as if he falls apart in the wet, is it. And he manages to get the car home every time, partly through superior machinery, but mainly through getting massive speed out of the car without beating it to death, something that others (Montoya as a prime example) are simply not able to do.

It's just desperately monotonous to KNOW that barring mechanical disasters, Schuey will win every race this season, and will probably set a new points-scoring recond into the bargain. Championship over after ten or eleven races, I'd say.

Markus

I've really lost faith with F1 over the past 12 years. Mum and I always used to watch F1 when I was a wee nipper, and so it was always there, in the background. I remember the sobering day when Senna died (and wasn't Ratzenburger killed/seriously injured on the same race weekend or was it before/after?). Yeah, it is a bit like "I remember when it was all green fields" but it is true, it was better.

The rule changes introduced to slow cars down are not principally for safety, it's for MONEY! pure and simple. Bernie and to some extent, Max, want more money from F1, so they slow the cars down to cheer up the sponsors.

Even after all these changes, the cars are still as quick, and in some cases, quicker than they used to be and yet again they want to slow it down, why? When was the last fataility *of a driver* in F1?

The Ferrari domincance is annoying to say the least, however, i can't knock MS, he is a very very competent driver, and that does have something to do with the many wins he has, however, ferrari shove more money into F1 than any other team (I think) and thus that will have an effect on things.

I think a cap on the ammount that can be spent on a team might be a good way to go. The top teams will stamp their feet and shout, but it will help the lower down teams. I vaugley recall that ferrari spent more on development last year than some teams entire bankroll for the season, that is silly.

I do love F1, but I am terribly bored with it right now, I tend to not get up to see the start of the race, usually come into about 10 laps in, and ignore whomever is leading as it will be two red cars, unless some miracle has occured, which it did with Button (bloody good show there!). I have come close in the past to turning off the TV, but I've not done it yet, but will soon.

Even my mum, who, as mentioned above is a serious F1 fan (though you'd never guess it, but even I won't try and out trivia her on F1, she's scary! lol ) has said to me that she needs a new 'hobby' as F1 is just too boring these days. Told her to get into BTTC, she'll love that, and she can even pootle off to Brands to watch it, which will bring back memories of F1 at Brands to her, which she'll like.

Leslie

Yoza

That is an absolutely basic mistake to make and is inexcusable.

The next set of regulations are intended to remove all the electronic aids to driving and to save a great deal of cash too so that more teams have got the chance to be competitive. Good thing I say.

I still have not forgotten when Schumacher deliberately ran into Damon Hill to deny him the championship so that he could win it himself. Don't know how anyone can live with that and be a true sportsman.

Les

*Sonic*

It really does make me laugh some of the comments on here, especially by those who no longer follow the sport, and dont even realise some of their 'suggestions' are already in place, as pointed out by myself, and by re-bitten above

Oh and why is everyone complaining about Ferrari's dominance, no one ever seem to moan when Williams won 5 years on the run, and Maclarens dominance prior to that

Ok Williams had different drivers ( they could have put a monkey in the car, and it still would have won)

One reason why some of the teams are so against losing all the nice aids, is that they are the pinnacle of the motor industry, and what they develop/design ends up on road cars eventually (paddle gears, traction control etc etc)

I do agree that driver aids should not be allowed,

Also the Qualifying format is perfect for TV (as someone posted earlier that it wasnt) it maximises the exposure for the sponsors, which was exactly the aim as they complained big time

Ill say it again, as no-one seem to read my earlier post (and probably wont read this one too) a lot of the changes were brought in (and some of the new ideas being brought in) are pretty much designed to penalise Ferrari, both Bernie & Max have admitted this, and have also admitted they need to slow them down, WRONG everyone else needs to catch up, either that or terminate Ferrari's F1 contract

16vmarc

lol

Freak

lol
F1 nut here- been raised with it. Some people have very short memories on here.

1988- mclaren won 15 out of 16 races- would have been all 16 had senna not made a mistake. Were they branded cheats? No- hey were just bloody good back then as a team and driver combination.

Coming in with the team not ready? Senna at donnington 1993? Oh..it has happend before then.... F*ck ups happen from time to time.

Moaning because one team is doing better is called jealousy, and/or being a sore loser.
Ferrari were pants uncompetetive and unreliable a few yrs ago- they got their act together and are now the leading team.

Back in 1991- spa- uncompetetive Jordan car with a 'one off' drive by unknown michael schumacher.
He qualified high, much higher than his team mate and other more competetive cars-high enough for people to take notice of his raw talent. A year later he won at the same track in the benetton.
raw talent and the hardest working, cleverest and most focused team in F1 gives you the results you see.
Tabloid branded 'cheating' doesnt come into it.

Chris L

Nice posts Richard. As you hinted, I hardly think that MS really needed the teams to help Rubens (with all due respect to the chap..). If Ferrari wanted to muck things about there are much more elegant ways of doing it - but why would they bother?#

Incidently, reading in Motorsport News this week, the same 'boring' accusations have been made against F3000!

You can't blame MS for being the best or Ferrari for having a damn good car, the others have got to get better. That is not to say though that F1 should not be encouraging closer racing. If you look at Jenson Button, he has undoubtedly one of the best cars on the grid at the moment, yet he was only able to make up 5 places during the race. JB has proved that he can race with the best of them. There must be something wrong with the sport if this is all that can be achieved during a race.

Chris

Faire D'Income

Come off it, the two seasons aren't directly comparable as McLaren had two drivers fighting it out called Senna and Prost - remember them? The chances of Schumacher ever allowing a team mate to even think of challenging him are laughable and that's one of the reasons why people find it so boring these days. If Schumacher or Ferrari allowed Barrichelo to try to race then it would be a different matter not that I think he's that quick but it would be nice to see.

Again, a bad example as that race was a lottery with the on/off nature of the rain and most teams ended up changing tyres at least three times which led to confusion, yesterday there was far less pressure.

As I said in an earlier post Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher and Todt have done a brilliant job bringing Ferrari back to the top in conjunction with Luca's millions but the cynical ways they display to winning have won them few friends and if only Schumacher would allow a decent team mate then we could at least watch some racing within the team. It has nothing to do with being a sore loser or any form of jealousy - its simply become boring.

Buckrogers

B20

I think I recall them both stating that and agree with you.

On a side note, the sh!te that comes out of James Allen's mouth would embarrass the great Murray himself. At least Murray was funny, James Allen is a bumbling buffoon.

tiggers

OK for the doubters check this out:

Official FIA Statement re. meeting on 29th April 2003

Checkout the section entitled, appropriately enough, telemetry.

Written apologies on this thread will be accepted graciously

tiggers one, james and martin (Dumb and Dumber?) nil

tiggers.

Freak

James Allen is a strap on of immense proportions-hes always talking bollox....

tiggers

I was only kidding mate

Just glad to show those two f**kwits up for what they are.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

I believe the ECU was adjusted. By MS himself so no telemetry needed there.

Button for 2nd in the championship must be a good bet BTW, wonder what the odds are?

As mentioned before, more mechanical and less aero grip for closer racing. Also if the braking distances were longer there would be better overtaking chances. However with more grippier tyres they'd have to make a backward step in the braking dept, ban carbon brakes perhaps. But that goes against the ethic of using the best technical hardware for the job.