AlanG

That's right John. And i still stand by what i say about my wife driving the car on pump fuel. If she had to put fuel in the car to get home or whatever, i know she would either forget to put additive in or would just not drive the car, which considering she's insured for it, would be a waste.

On that rolling road day in particular it was Pete that said it was "cheats stuff", not me.
But in that era of Scoobynet, there wasn't much mention of what fuels were being used when the topic of achieved figures were talked about.

As Andy once said to me and i think he also mentioned it on a thread at one point, he has never denied what fuel he was using, it was just that nobody had picked up on it!

AlanG

The optimising of my last runs was due to a fairly sizeable dip in the graph which also showed it to be rich in this area which i felt was strange because it didn't show this during mapping.
I went up to Star for the one run, to get a figure, but discussing with the rolling road operator, he felt there could be gains if i leaned out the areas of concern, that was the only reason for optimising.

john banks

Don't see any issues with tweaking on the rollers, after all that is what they are supposed to be for

Additives are great, octane is king for smoothness, power and safety There is no shame in either using them or not using them. They are also practical to be used daily if there is only one user of the car and you can always use them. It is turbo-too-small syndrome really, you get the power of a bigger turbo with the spool up of a small one. Running methanol can be quite doable for daily use, one 5 litre container per fill up, economy doesn't seem to suffer at all after extended testing. If you stop using it it goes richer and hopefully your ECU will pick up the knock and retard or you can turn the boost down. I put NUL in my virtually empty tank the other day and it coped fine compared with Optimax/10% methanol - the ECU nicely retarded, the mixture richened and I ran 2 PSI less than normal.

All the ECUs have their pros and cons.

It is also good not to be in some big pissing contest and all breaking our engines in the process. There is no need for the competitiveness for most of us, it is about enjoying your car and how it feels on the road. The numbers don't really matter, and some people (myself becoming one of them I think) can't be bothered with it any more (hence no more Crail, shoot outs, TOTB etc for me). You end up bawsacking the car to get numbers out of it, makes the car unreliable and unpleasant to drive, and you don't want to spec it to be a drag monster.

Andy.F

Harley, have you no got fields to spray and Alan, have you no beer to make !

Geez, I throw a little pebble in the pool and look at the waves

Haven't lost my touch then

Andy

AlanG

Don't even go there Andy!!
Picked the short straw last night and was under pressure to get the friggin line back together to allow production to start up at 6 this morning!
Normally this isn't a problem, but the particular plant in question leaves an... erm...lot to be desired!

T-uk

too windy to spray so went fishin and got a nibble

thanks for the call alan but I still think you should throw it on the rollers, you say the mid range is much perkier but it dies off at 6000rpm ,may be you have 415 at 6000 in which case I 'll have a 20g and a gems too

AlanG

LOL Pulled in a whale!! I'm too old for this lark...

Doubt that figure of 415 would be achieved at 6000rpm at the moment since the headers raised my peak power to 6800rpm.

Wish i was still on the Link at the moment, yet the GEMS showed so much promise initially.

Andy.F

What can be misleading is when you improve midrange torque, it feels like you have lost top end but it is usually still actually there, it's the new found midrange that gives it the feel of peaking earlier. When you get the midrange sorted like this it's sometimes better to short-shift around 6.5k , this is also kinder to the engine

AlanG

Problem i've got Andy is i don't have 1.4 bar above 6000rpm anymore and don't have the dongle/cable to allow me to see the map yet. (GEMS is pathetic this way in charging you for every single item whereas some other manufacturers give the software/access for nothing.

The car hasn't been mapped the way it was asked to be. I was subsequently told that the map doesn't change so must be the car. Fair enough. So checked the car over and it's fine, but as soon as you hit 6000... boom!! boost drops away like a baloon farting round the room!

The only changes from the 415 result i made were a change of filter and boxxing in of it and increasing the fuelling on the Link which was necessary. After that, the GEMS went on and i've now lost 0.2 bar from 6-7000rpm. The car feels more eager as it spools up over the Link and feels particularly good in the mid but its as flat as a pancake above 6000 just now

Andy.F

PMSL You have been told that before

AlanG

ROTFPMSL. I wonder where.....

Andy.F

So how does that work then ? You can't actually change anything or even view it without the dongle ?
I presume Sam can still do this for you ?

Andy

Johnny50

Whilst we're on the Gems/20g note...
Mine is getting Gems mapped on friday, with my new turbo etc..
It's the initial install..so the mapping will be done from scratch, also, i'm up at Star on sunday to see how it goes..

Anything i should be asking for in the map ??

AlanG

Can't change, can't view, unless you have the dongle and cable to allow you to view it. If you have the dongle and cable you can save the map though and then transfer that on to PC and view it offline but... I sent the map over to Sam a while ago, but because of the software version he couldn't view it either!!
Sent the map to Bob as well to see if he could see it....and same thing.

They would be better placed to explain why this is, i can't answer that.

Andy.F

So is your current ECU mapped by Steve then Alan ?
I know that on the Apexi, you can lock out access to view or adjust the maps etc but it's just not necessary. Every car is so different that it would be a brave man that just copied a map for his mate for example

Andy

Andy.F

Jonny

I guess you could express a preferance for high midrange torque or a progressive power increase, or boost tailing off at the top end, or a desire to run the car on 95ron etc.
Not sure if steve maps differently for road/circuit/drag race ? I suspect he has a 'one fits all' to keep it safe for all of the above. There are however gains to be had if you target a specific use.

AlanG

Yes. was mapped by Steve.
This is what was mailed to me when I initially asked about the boost dropping after 6000rpm.

The Waste gate duty cycle map progressively decreases to counter the boost creep that we had when mapping.The logs I have on the day were pretty flat - but I would not expect to see the same results on the dyno.The problem , as I recall , was that a small change in duty cycle gave a large change in boost due to the turbo/waste gate set up.What is happening on the road?Is it still creeping then suddenly dropping?If so the something mechanical has changed since we mapped it - the map can't change.

The strange thing is when you take the boost control away from the ECU and control boost mechanically, i don't see the same thing happening.

T-uk

I was told that the newer gems software can be locked out to everyone else so it sounds like that is what steve simpson has done , possibly to give him some repeat work. I suppose you can see a safety benefit for him doing this to a degree.

Johnny50

Thanks Andy.
I'm not really wanting to hold too much boost higher up the rev range (especially cos it's a uk 98 car) so midrange performance is really what i'm aiming for.

I know it's hard for you to say...but, what would you recommend as a safe boost level ?
1.3/1.4..tailing of to 1.1 or something ??
As you know...i aint clued up..

Oh, and Alan...thanks for the mail.
Much apreciated.

john banks

How high is your very top end boost creep in say 4th gear Alan?

Andy.F

Hmm, don't know enough about the GEMS boost control strategy. I recall Sam saying the ECU was generally 'miles ahead' of the link so I would assume from that, that it has closed loop boost control, ie a target of xx psi is set and if it doesn't achieve it, then the wastegate duty is changed unti it does. As opposed to just outputting a fixed duty cycle curve as determined during mapping ?
Do you not prefer the AVC-R for the in gear adjustments etc ?

Andy.F

Johhny

1.4 bar on that turbo will probably eat your gearbox fairly soon !

I have found that 1.2 bar held allows excellent timing advance and gives a very progressive power curve which pulls well all the way but without the potentially gearbox damaging midrange torque rush.

I don't recall if you have headers or not but even 1.2 bar should see you in the mid 300's no problem

David_Wallis

sounds like an ecu / mapping issue then alan..

not fooking kidding there..

Autronic.. if you dont use the autronic badged cornflakes which cost £700 compared to kellogs at £3 then you dont get any support and recommend it you get banned from the forum..

Seen better software on a casio calculator - slowly getting better.

Dont even talk to me about motec.. all these features.. but they cost to get them turned on..

Even bloody pectel t6's have option lists..

Why cant every ecu come with all the features required..

And as for putting outputs on unused ecu pins and not supplying connectors

I could rant and rave all day but wouldnt do any good.. should have stuck with factory ecu.

David

AlanG

John Banks
This was in a mail i sent to Bob.

2nd run was with hose connected between comp outlet and actuator.
In 3rd gear boost rose steadily from a stable 0.6bar in the midrange up to 1.1bar at 7000rpm.
In 4th gear this did the same, 0.6bar but rose steadily as the revs rose up to 1.25bar at 7000rpm

3rd run was with GEMS boost control connected.
In 3rd gear boost rose to 1.4bar in the midrange, holding that until 6000rpm, then dropping to 1.1bar between 6000 and 67/6800 ish rpm with a final drop in boost figure to 1.0bar at 7000rpm.
In 4th gear boost rose to 1.35bar in the same rpm area as before, dropping to 1.2 bar between 6000 and 67/6800ish rpm with a final drop to 1.1bar at 7000rpm.

AlanG

Andy
I'm not clued up on the GEMS software strategy for boost control but yes Sam did say it was miles better than the Link for this function.
I believe there is something like 5 or 6 tables that can be used to control boost functions on the GEMS, so would imagine there would be a closed loop facility there.

There was a bit of a miscommunication between me and Sam regards what would have been better. At the time i was led to believe the GEMS would have been on a par with what the AVC-R could do, so swapped back to the three port solenoid so as to allow the ecu to control everything.
Now it turns out after talking to Sam that the AVC-R would have been the better choice as that is designed to control one thing and one thing only..boost, so maybe i'm best to go back to that, but i'm not really a fan of having numerous bits controlling various parameters. Prefer the all in one package, is neater, and you would expect the manufacturer of those parts to have spent enough in development to allow the end user a one stop shop.

If it is indeed the case where nobody can access the ecu apart from the original mapper, then i've already chosen my bin for the ecu and would suggest others have a big think before looking at GEMS. To all those in the group buy, i apologise for saying this, but if it turns out to be true, then it sounds like he's got you by the short and curlies (me included) Here's hoping it's urban myth.

T-uk

could be a case of this with the drop at top.

you need to get it on the rollers , top end boost does not always=power

Johnny50

Andy..i'm on HKS headers.
1.2 sounds the way to go i think..actually, i recall you saying that when we last met..
Dont think i can afford a new g/box !
If i can get 360bhp..i'll be over the moon.

Thanks for your help.
Will post my results on sunday night.

Andy.F

Johhny

You should make target on the HKS headers as long as the boost holds steady on the rollers ?
Rolling roads are notorious for throwing up problems with boost level !

It may be worth asking Steve what Timing and AFR he has has set at 6500rpm, Not something he would want you posting on a BBS but this would be something to look at if it falls short of your target !

Andy

Scoty

Alan, you should be able to access the map and make your own adjustments if you buy the software and dongle.
Steve should be able to sort you out with it.

RB5_245

Johnny50, It might be worth asking for fuel cut above a certain rpm on the over run (andy f's advice to me earlyer), say 4000rpm. Since having the gems installed i've been getting increasingly worried about the health of my engine, and that's one of the things i would like changed.

I also don't like the way that on idle (1000 rpm) i get a constant (lambda = 1) reading on the lambdalink. Imo it should only 'flick' up and down at that sort of exhaust flow (I may be completely wrong). Just a couple of things to keep an eye on.

Alan, with regards to boost control I also have some issues with this. ie 2nd or 3rd 1.3bar through to 6k then dropping to 1.1 (as was decided) if continuing through the gears (4th and 5th)same boost.

If planted in 4th or 5th at say above 3.5k rpm 1.5bar straight away and no sign of it dropping off. When mapping the boost was originally 1.3bar to the redline (no probs at all), then pulled back to 1.1 when we were done, this had been held steady.

Whatever boost the thing decides to give me is held dead straight until 6k then tails off.

Steve also had no problems at all in selling the dongle, cable and software to adjust/destroy things myself.

I'm also glad u lads live a long way from each other, or you may be discussing the boost control of the big white transit with the blue lights on top thats taking you all home from the pub

Also I'm not blaming the gems for my engine running as it is (incase anyone thought that)

Dave.