Court appearance
29 June 2004, 01:23 PM
#63
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Dirty Laundry
Well, here is the update you may or may not have been waiting for:
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
29 June 2004, 01:34 PM
#64
Originally Posted by :eek:
Well, here is the update you may or may not have been waiting for:
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Sorry to hear about that mate 
That's pretty harsh Are you going to sell the car now?
29 June 2004, 02:00 PM
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I am almost speechless - this sort of thing is becoming more and more common especially with the fact that magistrates feel more and more 'in the right' due to the manipulated government statistics on speed cameras and the likes of that f**king halfwit Brunstrom and his cronies.
While you may or may not disagree with the magistrates decision what is absolutely inexcusable is their behaviour. You must lodge a formal complaint as just leaving it alone means the next person will get the same.
I went to court for speeding back in 2001 where after a catalogue of errors on their part meaning I had to go to court twice for the same offence the magistrates tried to give me a hard time. When I read out the errors that they and the court made they calmed down a little, but the fact remains that some of them seem to enjoy belittling those that come up before them which to me is hardly fair.
Still in your case at least it's one less hardened criminal driving around now eh?
Good luck mate and keep your chin up.
tiggers.
While you may or may not disagree with the magistrates decision what is absolutely inexcusable is their behaviour. You must lodge a formal complaint as just leaving it alone means the next person will get the same.
I went to court for speeding back in 2001 where after a catalogue of errors on their part meaning I had to go to court twice for the same offence the magistrates tried to give me a hard time. When I read out the errors that they and the court made they calmed down a little, but the fact remains that some of them seem to enjoy belittling those that come up before them which to me is hardly fair.
Still in your case at least it's one less hardened criminal driving around now eh?
Good luck mate and keep your chin up.
tiggers.
29 June 2004, 02:15 PM
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Why did the case take so long? 2.5 hours seems like ages. i was only in front of them for about 5-10 mins max for my 100mph/motorway speeding case.
Still, even after 2 hours you've been kicked in the boIIocks all for doing 6 mph over a speed limit, its an absolute disgrace. Especially following some fcukwit who hasn't even passed his test stealing a car crashing into 2 others and failing to stop for police, virtually getting off with it.
I got £100 fine and 6 points on my licence, similar to what the **** you mentioned got for a catalogue of criminal behaviour.
It beggers belief that you should be treated in this way for what amounts to MINOR traffic violations. Granted on your part you should not have been caught 4 times(?) for the same offence, but I should have thought a whacking fine would be more in order as a final warning than take your livlehood away from you. After all you werent pissed up playing car skittles down the high street were you.
Still, even after 2 hours you've been kicked in the boIIocks all for doing 6 mph over a speed limit, its an absolute disgrace. Especially following some fcukwit who hasn't even passed his test stealing a car crashing into 2 others and failing to stop for police, virtually getting off with it.
I got £100 fine and 6 points on my licence, similar to what the **** you mentioned got for a catalogue of criminal behaviour.
It beggers belief that you should be treated in this way for what amounts to MINOR traffic violations. Granted on your part you should not have been caught 4 times(?) for the same offence, but I should have thought a whacking fine would be more in order as a final warning than take your livlehood away from you. After all you werent pissed up playing car skittles down the high street were you.
29 June 2004, 02:51 PM
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SELL THE CAR ?????!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by paulpalmer
OMG Sorry to hear about that mate That's pretty harsh Are you going to sell the car now?
Sorry to hear about that mate That's pretty harsh Are you going to sell the car now?Think of all the time i now have to work on it
OMFGG.......horrible thought, what if missus passes her test !!!!!!!!!
29 June 2004, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by :eek:
OMFGG.......horrible thought, what if missus passes her test !!!!!!!!!
I've been up in front of the magistrates a few times in me yuoof and was never treated in that shocking manor.
How did your other circumstances (sp?) fair?
29 June 2004, 04:34 PM
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That is beyond belief!
Did you have representation? Had you demanded the disclosure of all their evidence etc.?
To be honest this all sounds very dodgy to me, I've no idea why, but something doesn't add up. If you are sure that it's their side and not yours (and sometimes they take a very aggressive position to cover up for errors on their part) that doesn't add up then you may care to consider an appeal, though it would be costly. Any appeal would be heard before a judge, rather than a magistrate. Judges are legal professionals, magistrates are lay people and have no knowledge of the law, except perhaps for that they gain when talking to the local Chief Constable at lodge meetings. I would, for example, question the legality of what happened with your partners daughter.
It must be said that it would appear that the courts are coming under increasing pressure to persecute motorists in the most extreme manner to discourage dissent. However, more and more motorists are taking the courts on and are winning so in the end we are not just getting mad, we are getting even.
You should also watch current European developments. If you were sent an NIP which you signed and returned then there is a possibility that this broke EU law and there is the possibility of a class action against the government to claim back fines, increased insurance, loss of earnings etc. If we can pull this off you might still get the last laugh.
I don't know where you might turn now but perhaps some civil liberties organisations might take an interest in your case and any possible appeal? They might assist with an appeal.
Did you have representation? Had you demanded the disclosure of all their evidence etc.?
To be honest this all sounds very dodgy to me, I've no idea why, but something doesn't add up. If you are sure that it's their side and not yours (and sometimes they take a very aggressive position to cover up for errors on their part) that doesn't add up then you may care to consider an appeal, though it would be costly. Any appeal would be heard before a judge, rather than a magistrate. Judges are legal professionals, magistrates are lay people and have no knowledge of the law, except perhaps for that they gain when talking to the local Chief Constable at lodge meetings. I would, for example, question the legality of what happened with your partners daughter.
It must be said that it would appear that the courts are coming under increasing pressure to persecute motorists in the most extreme manner to discourage dissent. However, more and more motorists are taking the courts on and are winning so in the end we are not just getting mad, we are getting even.
You should also watch current European developments. If you were sent an NIP which you signed and returned then there is a possibility that this broke EU law and there is the possibility of a class action against the government to claim back fines, increased insurance, loss of earnings etc. If we can pull this off you might still get the last laugh.
I don't know where you might turn now but perhaps some civil liberties organisations might take an interest in your case and any possible appeal? They might assist with an appeal.
29 June 2004, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by :eek:
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
29 June 2004, 08:01 PM
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Unbelievable
Makes me wonder about my circumstances now. I'm still questioning a NIP that I got in Dec 2003 (can't believe the process takes this long). I did do what hedgehog suggested - requested all the evidence against me. My circumstances are a little different as I was caught by a mobile Gatso unit - no road markings etc. I've asked to see the cailbration information as I have serious doubts over the speed I was clocked doing.
At the moment I'm still waiting for that to be sent to me. As hedgehog says, in theory, you are entitled to see the evidence against you (it's called primary disclosure) - however in minor offences, such as speeding, primary disclosure does not apply and the police do not have to provide this evidence until the court hearing - which is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
This anomoly in the law is ridiculous as I am unable to defend myself without seeing the evidence (and having an opportunity to check and have it verified). In response to the summons, I have returned it entering no plea and issued a formal complaint against the Met Police for theft (demanding a fine without providing all the evidence) and persuing an unlawful policy. I did ask for an adjournment while the complaint was considered, but that was refused, so I am due at Ealing Magistrates' Court at 10:00 on 9th July, unless I hear otherwise. It could be an interesting morning....
Chris
Makes me wonder about my circumstances now. I'm still questioning a NIP that I got in Dec 2003 (can't believe the process takes this long). I did do what hedgehog suggested - requested all the evidence against me. My circumstances are a little different as I was caught by a mobile Gatso unit - no road markings etc. I've asked to see the cailbration information as I have serious doubts over the speed I was clocked doing.
At the moment I'm still waiting for that to be sent to me. As hedgehog says, in theory, you are entitled to see the evidence against you (it's called primary disclosure) - however in minor offences, such as speeding, primary disclosure does not apply and the police do not have to provide this evidence until the court hearing - which is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
This anomoly in the law is ridiculous as I am unable to defend myself without seeing the evidence (and having an opportunity to check and have it verified). In response to the summons, I have returned it entering no plea and issued a formal complaint against the Met Police for theft (demanding a fine without providing all the evidence) and persuing an unlawful policy. I did ask for an adjournment while the complaint was considered, but that was refused, so I am due at Ealing Magistrates' Court at 10:00 on 9th July, unless I hear otherwise. It could be an interesting morning....
Chris
02 July 2004, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris L
Unbelievable
Makes me wonder about my circumstances now. I'm still questioning a NIP that I got in Dec 2003 (can't believe the process takes this long). I did do what hedgehog suggested - requested all the evidence against me. My circumstances are a little different as I was caught by a mobile Gatso unit - no road markings etc. I've asked to see the cailbration information as I have serious doubts over the speed I was clocked doing.
At the moment I'm still waiting for that to be sent to me. As hedgehog says, in theory, you are entitled to see the evidence against you (it's called primary disclosure) - however in minor offences, such as speeding, primary disclosure does not apply and the police do not have to provide this evidence until the court hearing - which is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
This anomoly in the law is ridiculous as I am unable to defend myself without seeing the evidence (and having an opportunity to check and have it verified). In response to the summons, I have returned it entering no plea and issued a formal complaint against the Met Police for theft (demanding a fine without providing all the evidence) and persuing an unlawful policy. I did ask for an adjournment while the complaint was considered, but that was refused, so I am due at Ealing Magistrates' Court at 10:00 on 9th July, unless I hear otherwise. It could be an interesting morning....
Chris
Makes me wonder about my circumstances now. I'm still questioning a NIP that I got in Dec 2003 (can't believe the process takes this long). I did do what hedgehog suggested - requested all the evidence against me. My circumstances are a little different as I was caught by a mobile Gatso unit - no road markings etc. I've asked to see the cailbration information as I have serious doubts over the speed I was clocked doing.
At the moment I'm still waiting for that to be sent to me. As hedgehog says, in theory, you are entitled to see the evidence against you (it's called primary disclosure) - however in minor offences, such as speeding, primary disclosure does not apply and the police do not have to provide this evidence until the court hearing - which is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
This anomoly in the law is ridiculous as I am unable to defend myself without seeing the evidence (and having an opportunity to check and have it verified). In response to the summons, I have returned it entering no plea and issued a formal complaint against the Met Police for theft (demanding a fine without providing all the evidence) and persuing an unlawful policy. I did ask for an adjournment while the complaint was considered, but that was refused, so I am due at Ealing Magistrates' Court at 10:00 on 9th July, unless I hear otherwise. It could be an interesting morning....
Chris
02 July 2004, 09:38 AM
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sorry to hear that mate, can't believe the attitude of the court!!!
We need to get a mobile speed gun ourselves and catch all the squirmy fekers who work there speeding, which they undoubtably do.
We need to get a mobile speed gun ourselves and catch all the squirmy fekers who work there speeding, which they undoubtably do.
02 July 2004, 10:04 AM
#74
Originally Posted by :eek:
Well, here is the update you may or may not have been waiting for:
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
I KNOW WHAT U MEAN ABOUT BEING HUMILIATED! i was on the recieving end if some unnessesary coments when i was in court and i was the witness/innocent person. law system is full of ******* in stupid wigs who get paid to much to slate people
02 July 2004, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by M444GY
i was on the recieving end if some unnessesary coments when i was in court and i was the witness/innocent person
02 July 2004, 12:19 PM
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Good luck to everyone fighting their persecution.
Some good news for all of you is that the argument that the EU has already ruled against the legality of an NIP (The NIP disposes of your right to silence and right not to incriminate yourself) is to be tested in open court at Bath Magistrates Court on 9th August.
If the magistrates ignore the complex EU law argument (remember magistrates are lay people with no legal background and they general don't like to talk about the actual law) then there will be an immediate appeal to the European Court. The expert witness is a specialist in EU law and is confident that the case is already won.
Clearly as it is only a magistrates court the situation is quite complex as precedent isn't set. However by the 10th August it is possible that sending you an NIP will basically become illegal.
There is also some discussion of a class action against the government should this be shown to be the case. So, be sure to keep a record of all your costs, time, increased insurance etc. In a few months it might be US who have THEM in the court taking the cash out of their wallets!! Roll on the day.
Oh, it may also be worthwhile to consider asking your local courts for a delay in their persecution until this matter is decided, pointing out that their actions may be illegal under EU law and the prosecution may, therefore, be malicious.
Some good news for all of you is that the argument that the EU has already ruled against the legality of an NIP (The NIP disposes of your right to silence and right not to incriminate yourself) is to be tested in open court at Bath Magistrates Court on 9th August.
If the magistrates ignore the complex EU law argument (remember magistrates are lay people with no legal background and they general don't like to talk about the actual law) then there will be an immediate appeal to the European Court. The expert witness is a specialist in EU law and is confident that the case is already won.
Clearly as it is only a magistrates court the situation is quite complex as precedent isn't set. However by the 10th August it is possible that sending you an NIP will basically become illegal.
There is also some discussion of a class action against the government should this be shown to be the case. So, be sure to keep a record of all your costs, time, increased insurance etc. In a few months it might be US who have THEM in the court taking the cash out of their wallets!! Roll on the day.
Oh, it may also be worthwhile to consider asking your local courts for a delay in their persecution until this matter is decided, pointing out that their actions may be illegal under EU law and the prosecution may, therefore, be malicious.
03 July 2004, 03:27 PM
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All people breaking the law are treated the same as that is what they have done whether big or small. What you got sounds within the average and each court case is different so if one oerson didn't get the same as you or were treated different then there are probably reasons. Maybe sometimes it is due to the response you give to questions or hwath happened at the exact time of incident etc. Each case to its own merits.
Laws are there for a reason and if you break them you should suffer the consequeces. If you think you are above the law and don't have to abide by what is set then these things will happen - it is life.
Laws are there for a reason and if you break them you should suffer the consequeces. If you think you are above the law and don't have to abide by what is set then these things will happen - it is life.
03 July 2004, 07:53 PM
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True enough. However if you want people to abide by laws, then those enforcing them (i.e. the police) should be seen to be following the correct lawful procedure. They shouldn't be surprised if people challenge them on this.
Chris
Chris
03 July 2004, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by roybadcock
All people breaking the law are treated the same as that is what they have done whether big or small. What you got sounds within the average and each court case is different so if one oerson didn't get the same as you or were treated different then there are probably reasons. Maybe sometimes it is due to the response you give to questions or hwath happened at the exact time of incident etc. Each case to its own merits.
Laws are there for a reason and if you break them you should suffer the consequeces. If you think you are above the law and don't have to abide by what is set then these things will happen - it is life.
Laws are there for a reason and if you break them you should suffer the consequeces. If you think you are above the law and don't have to abide by what is set then these things will happen - it is life.
thanks for taking time out from preparing tomorrows church sermon.
I'm sure Rob really appreciates your well chosen, sanctimonious and self-righteous words. You must feel all warm inside that such a major criminal has finally been caught and dealt with. The world is a safer place.
Praise the lord!
03 July 2004, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by :eek:
Well, here is the update you may or may not have been waiting for:
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Left Wycombe Magistrates Court yesterday with little or no pride left, feeling like a common criminal (just like those i had sat next to awaiting my hearing)
I was smart, polite, coherrent and humble, my case took over 2.5 hours from start to finish, i was belittled, my circumstances were belittled, my partner (who's daughter relies on me to ensure she attends all of her physio-therapy appointments in Oxford for her cerabal-palsy) was also 'taken apart and actually reduced to tears due to some of the comments made by the magistrates regarding her situation and reliance on me. What i expected to have be a humbling experience was actually one of degradation, i have never been so humiliated in my life........lord only knows how the 'regulars' get treated "Oh ello mate, wot you 'ere for this week?"......"Kicked **** outta that copper didn't I"
Long story short........6 months and 300 quid fine..........because i triggered a gatso at 36mph and had 9 points on my licence already.
The punishment I accept, I broke the law.....the treatment we received.........unspeakable, you'd have thought I was a rapist.
Laughably, the lad in front of me was given 6 pionts and a £400.00 fine for taking his mothers car whilst on a provisional licence and totalling it and two others after failing to stop for police!!!!!!!!
Gutted for you mate. Really sorry it didnt turn out well and that none of my advice helped.
t0$$ers the lot of them!!!!
03 July 2004, 10:53 PM
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Sorry to here this : eek : I've followed and read every post in this thread and thought to myself that if you got more than £300.00 and allowed to drive on 12 points it would way over the top. I honestly thought you woould get off with being allowed to drive on 12 points There is no REAL justice in this, just heartache for : eek : his girlfriend and daughter. WTF in cases like this dont they give you community service and a drivers awareness course. It'd be much more productive and helpful to everyone.
So for future reference folks:
12 points for speeding = 6 month ban and £300.00
14 year old, nicks car, kills someone and raps car round tree = £300.00 & 3 year ban
Gutted for you mate, really am
Last edited by Buzzer; 03 July 2004 at 10:56 PM.
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