Drunken Bungle Whore

Hmm - may loose sleep over that witty dig. Bet Oscar Wildes getting worried that someone's about to out do him.

I think that comment from Bravo2zero completely validates my comments. Won't be holding my breath for a reasoned adult discussion then....

Muffleman

Why not run a poll mate ?

Matt

Nimbus

What exactly homophobic mean? What's dictionary definition? Our firewall blockes the listing at www.dictionary.com...

Muffleman

1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

Senior_AP

lol. Dunno how to!! Was looking more for opinions and reasoning more than just a yes or no.

If it was a poll I'd say it was 90% wrong so far.

Drunken Bungle Whore

Both - but either would be a start....

Muffleman

Actually, come to think of it - neither do I

Chris L

Well no, but life's a sh*t isn't it? In an ideal world, the original (straight) parents who had the kid in the first place would be around to care for the baby. However, there are going to be a huge number of reasons why this is not possible.

So, society is left with trying to find a way to bring that child up. Again, in an ideal world, the child would be able to make that decision for themselves. As that isn't posisible what do you do? Surely the child also has a right to decent caring upbringing - if that is found with a gay couple - then so be it. Leaving kids in foster homes is likely to leave them with far more problems.

There aren't enough straight couples willing to adopt, so what else should we do?

Chris

Drunken Bungle Whore

Reasoning? Hahahahhahahaha - not going to happen mate. Just brace yourself for all the none fact based opinions.

How can you have a deeply held opinion on something you have no direct experience of?

I enjoy having my beliefs challenged and have changed some very deeply held feelings/ beliefs follwing reasoned discussion and exploration of real life hard facts. What winds me up is people spouting hot air.

Surely it's OK to say "This is what I think, however I've no real experience of the situation and am compeltely open to having my opinion changed should I ever get some proper facts".

Drunken Bungle Whore

I'll save you having to read my original comment again - but it referred to other threads. Proves my point again though - half read a comment and leap to a conclusion.

So - for the proper debate - give me sound reasoning and first hand experience of how you've formed this opinion? That's all I ask for this time and that's all I ever ask for.

Senior_AP

Err....!! Let me think about that one.......

I'll do a thread when I have an idea.

Nimbus

I can't ask them to post that they did, although I know it for a fact. They told my wife all about it and were quite open about it. Whether you take that as evidance is up to you.

For the stright couples, it seams that NHS can offer this for free if you have been sponsered by the local heath authority. Also from April 2005, all Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) should be offering at least one cycle of IVF treatment on the NHS to infertile couples.

So, looks like I was wrong on that score. Learnt something there.

However, I still stand by my own opinion that it is wrong for gays to have children by IFV or adoption (if there are too young to decide for themselves)

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

DBW,
remember the thread very well
the point I recall was that yourself and turbokitty were asking for proof to back up it wasnt ok,
to turn that on its head, prove it is.

the question was asked of opinion, opinion need not be backed up by fact because it is just that, opinion.

there are many people who are homosexual who are much better people (and hence would make better parents) than many straight families.
however, I believe that mankind has interfered too much as it is.

it depends on whther you are a Darwinist, in which case if your not meant to have kids then thats that.
or you believe that the world is a better place for medicine being able to overcome such problems.

I am a Darwinist, natural selection makes good sense to me. Homosexuals cannot naturally bare children and on the strength of that it is my opinion they should not be able to raise a family.
Darwins theory would hold out that childless couples is natures way of overcoming population problems, be they straight or gay.

Peanuts

Senior_AP

If people only ever based an opinion on their experiences then it would be a strange world.

Politicians don't have direct experience on many of the issues they deal with - they have to take what they believe to be the right decision based on their opinions and personal attitudes (political leanings).

You must have opinions on things you have had no direct experience of?? If not you'd probably rarely speak!!

ajm

Saying it is "not natural" is not the same as being homophobic. Biologically, two male human beings cannot produce offspring, so therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say that two males raising a child is not natural. It is also an unusual situation and therefore it is also acceptable to assume the child will receive a significant amount of grief about the situation, as they would about any other aspects of their life that could be considered unusual.

I can't see any benefit for the child to be in such a situation, and if it did happen it would be purely for selfish reasons on the part of the two males concerned in my opinion.

Nimbus

Thanks muffleman.

Against those criteria, I'm not a homphobic. I don't concider myself to be one either.

TelBoy

What effects on the child are all the "No"s assuming will occur from having two male parents?

Or is this (dress it up how you want) another biased anti-gay SN straw-poll?

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

One reason its different for male homosexual couples is that obviously they can't concieve - wheras lesbians can, and often do rather than go the adoption route.

A child being brought up by a male homosexual couple isn't natural, even if being homosexual itself is natural. And therein lies the answer - if a man loves another man then nature says they cannot concieve!

But of course there is the option of adoption. And I'm sure that there are very strict criteria that have to be met by straight couples let alone gays to get on the list. I'd be surprised if the Trisha/wifeswap stereotype would qualify for adoption.

But at the end of the day a child in a loving relationship is better than a child in an orphanage. And if there are more parentless children than straight couples that meet the adoption criteria, then gay couples should be considered too.

IMO nature depicts the positive discrimination towards straight couples when it comes to adoption.

Senior_AP

Think about this thread how you wish. I'm asking a question and as I said - NOT divulging my opinions.

TelBoy

Ok, but is anybody willing to justify their opinion?

"Not normal". Ok, true. But so what? If the kid turns out better than the average drop-out losers we seem to have in profusion (and the chances are, a gay couple WOULD do a better job), then where's the problem?

ajm

All the effects that can be attributable to a lack of a mother for starters. A severe identity crisis when the child is old enough to realise that daddy and daddy couldn't have made him/her on their own! A whole string of problems arising from bullying, a misbalanced perception of sexuality and who knows what other psychological effects.

The point is, why risk experimenting with the mother/father family unit, the fundemental building block of human psyche? Its purely for selfish reasons on the part of the "fathers".

Senior_AP

I'm a asking a fundamental question. Is it fair on the child, he/she cannot choose.

TelBoy

So two gay men is still worse than a straight single man bringing up his children? If so, why?

Senior_AP

Not divulging my opinion but a post that does have sound reasoning for your conclusion.....not just a rant.

Senior_AP

AJM has attempted to answer this question.... 3 or so posts up.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

Telboy,
I have absolutely no doubts that the only real immediate threat to the child will be mocking by the narrow minded children in the school.

PG

I am anti-gay

There, I said it !

TelBoy

It's fair provided that their sexuality doesn't affect their parenting abilities. And that they don't force their child to accept homosexuality as the norm.

I think a lot of people here are assuming that the above two conditions would not be met.