Contentious!!
#121
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Originally Posted by ajm
It's threads like these that keep it interesting. Imagine pages of threads where everyone agreed and indulged in inter-user congratulatory smarminess.... it would be hideous!
UB
ooo... forgot to say CORNER!!!
Oh and - look at me I've got 5,000 posts!!!
#122
DBW, I don't think it's fair to conclude that people being anti gay-adoption are homophobic. Some might be, some not.
To further the debate, much seems to focus on the words "normal" and "natural". IMHO we do a lot of "unnatural" things as a human race, including driving Japanese tinbox cars at over 120 MPH. So we need to define "normal" and "natural" if we want to clarify those statements.
There is no straight yes or no answer as far as I can see: has to be looked at case by case, I'm sure some kids would sell a limb to be able to live with a decent gay couple.
So "yes" to the right to adopt, but with caution.
To further the debate, much seems to focus on the words "normal" and "natural". IMHO we do a lot of "unnatural" things as a human race, including driving Japanese tinbox cars at over 120 MPH. So we need to define "normal" and "natural" if we want to clarify those statements.
There is no straight yes or no answer as far as I can see: has to be looked at case by case, I'm sure some kids would sell a limb to be able to live with a decent gay couple.
So "yes" to the right to adopt, but with caution.
#123
Originally Posted by SomeDude
DBW, I don't think it's fair to conclude that people being anti gay-adoption are homophobic. Some might be, some not.
To further the debate, much seems to focus on the words "normal" and "natural". IMHO we do a lot of "unnatural" things as a human race, including driving Japanese tinbox cars at over 120 MPH. So we need to define "normal" and "natural" if we want to clarify those statements.
There is no straight yes or no answer as far as I can see: has to be looked at case by case, I'm sure some kids would sell a limb to be able to live with a decent gay couple.
So "yes" to the right to adopt, but with caution.
To further the debate, much seems to focus on the words "normal" and "natural". IMHO we do a lot of "unnatural" things as a human race, including driving Japanese tinbox cars at over 120 MPH. So we need to define "normal" and "natural" if we want to clarify those statements.
There is no straight yes or no answer as far as I can see: has to be looked at case by case, I'm sure some kids would sell a limb to be able to live with a decent gay couple.
So "yes" to the right to adopt, but with caution.
You have considered all the potential issues??
Bullying??
If the couple were to brake up?? Who is deamed the mother/father (court of law).
There is soooo much to this topic.
#124
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DBW, I don't think it's fair to conclude that people being anti gay-adoption are homophobic. Some might be, some not.
UB
#125
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UB - obviously not been around the hutch for a while.
And bravo bloke? The point was the difference between and accusation and an opinion, not whether or not it's normal.
Define normal for me in the context of the current social climate? Single parents? Normal? Did someone start asexual reproduction?
And no I'm not having a go at single parents - far from it - I'm just challenging the defninition of "Normal." I have a single female friend who is adopting a child - is that not normal either?
And bravo bloke? The point was the difference between and accusation and an opinion, not whether or not it's normal.
Define normal for me in the context of the current social climate? Single parents? Normal? Did someone start asexual reproduction?
And no I'm not having a go at single parents - far from it - I'm just challenging the defninition of "Normal." I have a single female friend who is adopting a child - is that not normal either?
#126
There are many issues, probably as many as couples having a child "the normal way", or hetoro couples adopting kids.
The world is no rosegarden.
I think (but I'm not sure) that in Belgium - even with married same-sex couples - one of the 2 would have to be appointed gardian.
When they separate... they are in for the same nastiness as kids from hetero couples are they not ?
The world is no rosegarden.
I think (but I'm not sure) that in Belgium - even with married same-sex couples - one of the 2 would have to be appointed gardian.
When they separate... they are in for the same nastiness as kids from hetero couples are they not ?
#127
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
Quite right. To the politically correct though there are no shades of grey.
UB
UB
The world is all grey - there is very little black and white. I haven't expressed an opinion. There may be bullying, there may not. Kids from divorced parents used to get bullied. Single mums used to get put into assylums - I used to work with a group of 70+ year old women who had been locked in an asylum at the age of 15 for getting pregnant. They never got out. That used to be normal and now it isn't. We now agree that our attitudes were wrong then. Are they now?
#130
Originally Posted by Drunken Bungle *****
I have a single female friend who is adopting a child - is that not normal either?
Not normal is not necessarily a term for something shocking and abhorrent
#131
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Originally Posted by **************
Already done in post #120 I think you will find.
I also think you'll find you misquoted me:
Define normal for me in the context of the current social climate?
#132
If someone states an opinion then runs away without any ability to justify it, where's the debate/ discussion? "This is my opinion and I'm right." So how can anyone else learn anything form that?
Maybe you're right? How can anyone ever know that if you can't explain why you believe something?
Maybe you're right? How can anyone ever know that if you can't explain why you believe something?
What I'm trying to say that opinions are personal and based on many aspects that are difficult to put into words.. our sense of right and wrong... our morals.. our life experiances... everyone is different and we form our opinions on events and facts with this as a guide. It's pointless to ask someone to backup all their opinons with facts because it's either impossible to put into words, or because you will form a different opinon on the same facts...
#133
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Originally Posted by MattW
No it's not. In the same way it's not normal for the M25 to have light traffic on a Friday afternoon.
Not normal is not necessarily a term for something shocking and abhorrent
Not normal is not necessarily a term for something shocking and abhorrent
"Normal" needs a reference point - just as the Norm in statistics does. How can you deviate from the norm if there is no accepted norm?
#134
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Or was it a little long for your attention span
I'm sorry but the definition stands. You can't redefine a word Normal is where a baby is born due to its parents having sex. Its the majority scenario by a long way therefore deemed normal.
#135
Surely the accepted norm is that two people one female and one male, have sex. The female falls pregnant and has a baby. They then attempt to bring up said baby together.
This must surely be the usual (read normal) circumstance????
This must surely be the usual (read normal) circumstance????
#136
Originally Posted by Redkop
The time taken to constantly monitor potentially volatile threads like this, to see that they don't degenerate into a slanging match.
I have a lot of respect for the job the Moderators do, but to imply that a thread shouldn't be started because it would be time consuming to monitor if it proved to be popular is surely nonsense!
#137
Originally Posted by MattW
Surely the accepted norm is that two people one female and one male, have sex. The female falls pregnant and has a baby. They then attempt to bring up said baby together.
This must surely be the usual (read normal) circumstance????
This must surely be the usual (read normal) circumstance????
Or perhaps homosexuality is "normal" now as over time our acceptance of "normal" has broadened to cater for those, who are fundamentally different???
#138
Originally Posted by dharbige
Sorry, Redkop, but that's a terrible argument.
I have a lot of respect for the job the Moderators do, but to imply that a thread shouldn't be started because it would be time consuming to monitor if it proved to be popular is surely nonsense!
I have a lot of respect for the job the Moderators do, but to imply that a thread shouldn't be started because it would be time consuming to monitor if it proved to be popular is surely nonsense!
#139
Or perhaps homosexuality is "normal" now as over time our acceptance of "normal" has broadened to cater for those, who are fundamentally different???
But the next question then is: is being "not-normal" the justification for being against (hmmm, this sentence is not really flowing) gay-adoption ?
#140
Originally Posted by dharbige
Sorry, Redkop, but that's a terrible argument.
I have a lot of respect for the job the Moderators do, but to imply that a thread shouldn't be started because it would be time consuming to monitor if it proved to be popular is surely nonsense!
I have a lot of respect for the job the Moderators do, but to imply that a thread shouldn't be started because it would be time consuming to monitor if it proved to be popular is surely nonsense!
#141
Originally Posted by Redkop
Depends if it was started as a genuine 'popular' thread or as the thread title says deliberately 'Contentious'
#142
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him/her being brought up by 2 men is
being brought up in a heterosexual relationship gives the child a much better chance
the kid with 2 bent dads would get ripped apart at school
dbw you are an idealistic tree hugging fool
another case dismissed..NEXT!!!!
being brought up in a heterosexual relationship gives the child a much better chance
the kid with 2 bent dads would get ripped apart at school
dbw you are an idealistic tree hugging fool
another case dismissed..NEXT!!!!
#143
Originally Posted by **************
You called me homophobic because of an opinion I stated that states nothing pointing to me being homophobic.
Originally Posted by **************
Calling me that is not having an opinion
Originally Posted by **************
its making an accusation
All IMHO, which I am entitled to hold.
#144
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Of course you can't redefine normal - but it must have a context or reference point.
Our opions as a society about what is normal and what isn't have changed and continue to change.
What is bioloically possible has also changed. What is naturally possible has remained pretty much the same. Natural and normal are not the same things.
I'm still open to someone convincing me of their point either way - isnt' that the point of a discussion/ debate? But all that's happening is people are posting groundless opinions and misquoting others to make their point.
No one has to explain their opinion - but I'm hardly likely to agree with you or form a belief/ opinion unless they can.
Sorry I insulted you Bravo - but my patience has run thin and you did wildly misquote me to try and make a point.
This is NOT a discussion thread as no one seems prepared to discuss real facts.
Our opions as a society about what is normal and what isn't have changed and continue to change.
What is bioloically possible has also changed. What is naturally possible has remained pretty much the same. Natural and normal are not the same things.
I'm still open to someone convincing me of their point either way - isnt' that the point of a discussion/ debate? But all that's happening is people are posting groundless opinions and misquoting others to make their point.
No one has to explain their opinion - but I'm hardly likely to agree with you or form a belief/ opinion unless they can.
Sorry I insulted you Bravo - but my patience has run thin and you did wildly misquote me to try and make a point.
This is NOT a discussion thread as no one seems prepared to discuss real facts.
#146
Originally Posted by Drunken Bungle *****
Of course you can't redefine normal - but it must have a context or reference point.
Our opions as a society about what is normal and what isn't have changed and continue to change.
What is bioloically possible has also changed. What is naturally possible has remained pretty much the same. Natural and normal are not the same things.
I'm still open to someone convincing me of their point either way - isnt' that the point of a discussion/ debate? But all that's happening is people are posting groundless opinions and misquoting others to make their point.
No one has to explain their opinion - but I'm hardly likely to agree with you or form a belief/ opinion unless they can.
Sorry I insulted you Bravo - but my patience has run thin and you did wildly misquote me to try and make a point.
This is NOT a discussion thread as no one seems prepared to discuss real facts.
Our opions as a society about what is normal and what isn't have changed and continue to change.
What is bioloically possible has also changed. What is naturally possible has remained pretty much the same. Natural and normal are not the same things.
I'm still open to someone convincing me of their point either way - isnt' that the point of a discussion/ debate? But all that's happening is people are posting groundless opinions and misquoting others to make their point.
No one has to explain their opinion - but I'm hardly likely to agree with you or form a belief/ opinion unless they can.
Sorry I insulted you Bravo - but my patience has run thin and you did wildly misquote me to try and make a point.
This is NOT a discussion thread as no one seems prepared to discuss real facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattW
Surely the accepted norm is that two people one female and one male, have sex. The female falls pregnant and has a baby. They then attempt to bring up said baby together.
This must surely be the usual (read normal) circumstance????
__________________________________________________ ______
Sounds like a fair basis for normality in our world. Without that initial normality none of us would be here now.....
Or perhaps homosexuality is "normal" now as over time our acceptance of "normal" has broadened to cater for those, who are fundamentally different???
#149
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Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.
Homosexual couples are now more typical and usual - thus more normal.
#150
but I'm hardly likely to agree with you or form a belief/ opinion unless they can.
This is NOT a discussion thread as no one seems prepared to discuss real facts.
You can't discuss facts. What's to discuss? It's either a fact or not it's not. It is opinions that can be discussed, but like I said earlier, these are based ones own life and so may be invalid to someone else.